6 votes

'Lovers of Modena' skeletal find were both men; researchers quick to reassess their relationship

Posted by ohyran
Tags: history, archaeology, burials, italy.modena, researchers, human remains, author.lorenzo tondo, source.the guardian, short read
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/12/lovers-of-modena-skeletons-holding-hands-were-both-men-study

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Title
'Lovers of Modena' skeletons holding hands were both men
Authors
Lorenzo Tondo
Published
Sep 12 2019
Word count
315 words

4 comments

  1. [3]
    ohyran
    (edited )
    Link
    EDIT: as AugustusFerdinand points out below - I may have gone a bit overboard in my reaction to this. I really do suggest reading his reply to me and the links he posts. I can only apologize by...

    EDIT: as AugustusFerdinand points out below - I may have gone a bit overboard in my reaction to this. I really do suggest reading his reply to me and the links he posts. I can only apologize by claiming tiredness.

    Will let the post stand as is below as a reminder to us all, most of all me, to allow ourselves to take a breather and make sure in the future that what we accuse others of isn't exactly what we ourselves are doing. Thank you again, AugustusFerdinand!

    My original post:

    Ok so on the one hand, interesting - since all other findings of that type, including this one indicates those buried where a couple and either those indications are off - OR these two may have been "close college roommates" as it where.

    Secondary and why I posted it in LGBT is how quick assumptions change. From dubbing them "lovers of Modena" weaving a romantic narrative for ten years to "oh their both dudes, gross! So they must be [from the article] siblings, cousins or soldiers who died together [/from the article] or something similarly less threatening to my world view! yeah makes sense, manly soldiers holding hands etc!"

    Which isn't unique to this case or LGBT matters but in all research where there is some wiggle room for human creativity the researchers prejudice rather quickly pop out to play.
    Neanderthals where, for example, first "murdered off by our might", then when they found out Homo Sapiens and Neanderthalis lived side by side for a massive amount of time they where "obviously our slaves", then when we found out Europeans have "Neanderthal DNA" they where kept as our "slow kinda dimwitted sex slaves" and then when it became apparent that Homo Sapiens and Neanderthalis both had similar cultural levels and expressions and where more similar than many assumed, someone seem to have thought "oh so basically, we where probably just... living together for centuries and now Euros have Neanderthal traces in them".

    Or just invented periods of history like the Swedish Feudal era.

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      Lack of evidence is the reason for not saying they're a gay couple, not a narrative or homophobia. Scientists by and large don't make claims without evidence to back up their theories, the media...
      • Exemplary

      “Many tombs have been found in the past with couples holding hands, but in all cases there was a man and a woman. What might have been the bond between the two individuals in the burial in Modena remains a mystery.”

      Lack of evidence is the reason for not saying they're a gay couple, not a narrative or homophobia. Scientists by and large don't make claims without evidence to back up their theories, the media doesn't seem to follow that standard. Same sex contact, especially between men, being discouraged due to homophobia is a relatively recent and almost exclusively western phenomenon. There have been other "lovers' embrace" finds, but without texts to back it up as to why they've been buried together claims one way or another aren't made.

      The paper about the discovery specifies this and I always, as I suggest others do, follow the trail to the source instead of relying on the interpretation of authors who are, if I'm being generous, more often than not amateurs at best in the fields they report on. From the paper:

      We suggest that the ‘Lovers of Modena’ burial represents a voluntary expression of commitment between two individuals, rather than a recurring cult practice of the Late Antiquity; their position may reflect such relationship. The presence of several injured individuals within the Ciro Menotti necropolis let us suppose the destination of this place as war-cemetery. In this sense, the two ‘Lovers’ could have been war comrades or friends, died together during a skirmish and, thus, buried within the same grave. Alternatively, the two individuals were relatives, possibly cousins or brothers given their similar ages, sharing the same grave due to their family bond. Although we cannot exclude that these two individuals were actually in love, it is unlikely that people who buried them decided to show such bond by positioning their bodies hand in hand. Particularly, Late Antique social attitudes and Christian religious restrictions lead to the rejection of any hypothesis of deliberate manifestation of homosexual relationship. In fact, since 390, male passivity was frowned upon by law and, during the reign of Justinian (527–565), sex between males was fully considered a crime.

      Christian homophobia was alive and well at the time, so while it's possible they were lovers it's unlikely that they'd be buried as such to avoid backlash, punishment, and public ridicule. So evidence points toward them not being lovers.

      8 votes
      1. ohyran
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        You are absolutely correct - I should I talked about the reporting and not the research <3 I have edited my post above to relay your comments.

        You are absolutely correct - I should I talked about the reporting and not the research <3
        I have edited my post above to relay your comments.

        2 votes
  2. Eylrid
    Link
    Italian article that's a bit more verbose (passage translated to english with google translate) A CNN article has a quote from Giulia Di Rocco, Lugli's collaborator:

    Italian article that's a bit more verbose

    Who were they? The confirmation that both "lovers of Modena" were male, however, opens another question: what is the meaning of this burial? The finds of tombs with two individuals placed hand in hand, or even embraced, are different, scattered all over the world and from different eras: from the "lovers of Valdaro", found in the province of Mantua and dating back to about 6 thousand years ago, to similar cases in Greece, Turkey and also in Siberia, up to a pair of skeletons found in Romania dating back to the XV-XVI century. However, these are always couples made up of a male and a female individual.

    "The burial of two men hand in hand was certainly not a common practice in late antiquity", Federico Lugli explains. "We believe that this choice symbolizes a particular relationship existing between the two individuals, but we do not know which type". Among the various hypotheses in the field, that of lovers seems to be the most remote. "In late ancient times it is unlikely that a homosexual love could be recognized so clearly by the people who prepared the burial," says Lugli again. "Since the two individuals are of similar age, they could be relatives, for example brothers or cousins. Or soldiers who died together in battle: the necropolis in which they were found could be a war cemetery ”.

    (passage translated to english with google translate)

    A CNN article has a quote from Giulia Di Rocco, Lugli's collaborator:

    Giulia Di Rocco, an assistant professor at the University of Modena and Lugli's collaborator on the project, told CNN: "We are pretty sure they intentionally buried them together " side by side.

    "They could be brothers, cousins, friends," she said. "They could even be lovers. They are all equally likely, I think."

    1 vote