An interesting companion for this story is "Cat Person" and Me, an article from the woman who Margot, it turns out, was based on. It reflects on the effects of the story on her, and on the person...
An interesting companion for this story is "Cat Person" and Me, an article from the woman who Margot, it turns out, was based on. It reflects on the effects of the story on her, and on the person Robert was based on.
Kristen Roupenian’s viral story draws specific details from my own life. I’ve spent the years since it published wondering: How did she know?
I'll pull in what sounds like "Margot"'s own summary:
I'll pull in what sounds like "Margot"'s own summary:
Most importantly, she got that the power dynamic went both ways: Charles was my point of access to an entirely new world of culture and an escape from a life where I didn’t fit in, but with my youth—the way I had my whole life ahead of me—I held power over him, too.
My relationship with Charles was full of shame brought on by people who assumed the worst—a predatory man asserting his power over an innocent girl. But those who knew Charles well knew how respectful and caring he could be. On a Zoom memorial following his death, half a dozen people around the country said something to the effect of “I was in a dark place, then Charles said, ‘Hey, come live with me,’ and it turned things around.” Despite his social anxieties and insecurities, the Charles I knew made space for people.
I didn’t expect to read the whole thing. It’s getting late here and I’m tired. But there’s a morbid realism to the story that kept me hooked. I’m not sure what to even say. There are scraps of...
I didn’t expect to read the whole thing. It’s getting late here and I’m tired. But there’s a morbid realism to the story that kept me hooked. I’m not sure what to even say. There are scraps of both characters that are components of my own self.
I’m thinking about how I used to watch daytime television about half-real domestic drama. It’s not really educational, but it does give you a very precise point in the space of humanity. And I can take care in giving that point, and all others in the collection, a wide berth.
Edit: Last thing before signing off - I’m glad I’m on Tildes for content like this. I’d never have found and read this on my own.
Shit, I mean, I read this when it came out and it kinda wrecked me? Like, still cis-masc identifying at the time (now enby/trans-femme), and, like, definitely some of the ways that I had been in...
Shit, I mean, I read this when it came out and it kinda wrecked me? Like, still cis-masc identifying at the time (now enby/trans-femme), and, like, definitely some of the ways that I had been in relationships matched a bit too closely for comfort. But I just remember sending this around to some folks I was dating at the time and, god, it just hit really heavy for all of us. And, honestly, I'm a bit nervous to read it again.
I mean, we fit the gender tropes -- I was remembering how I had hurt previous relationships by not really having or respecting boundaries, they were mostly remembering what it was like to have...
I mean, we fit the gender tropes -- I was remembering how I had hurt previous relationships by not really having or respecting boundaries, they were mostly remembering what it was like to have boundaries violated (I was closer to Robert, they were both closer to Margot). So, not entirely thematic, but that moment of "we're having sex and it's weird and I'm trying to be ok with what's happening" just brought on a whole heap of ache.
That, and like, no one in the story really gets to share and affirm physical wants? So, all the ache around trying to fit some sexual script that doesn't entirely work for anyone.
I don't know, I read this now and I empathize so deeply with Robert. Like, calling someone a whore isn't cool (unless someone's consenting into that), I remember a few fuck you's that I threw out towards the end of my first long-term relationship. But, like, I didn't know anything better, I only had ways of loving that were passed down from my parents that didn't work for anyone, and I was trying to act in a way that felt ok, but there was just so much that I didn't know, about myself, about relating, sex, all of it. I remember a time when someone accidentally kissed my then-girlfriend (I don't remember specifics, just that it was mostly benign) and just so many waves of insecurity came piling up that I couldn't talk to her for a few days. In large part, I thought that I was unlovable, and just got really lucky, but if they left I'd be unlovable again. Which, ya know, is a great way to be in a relationship.
When that relationship ended (unsurprisingly, I got dumped), I spent two nights a week at the library, journaling furiously, trying to process everything that happened and interrogating myself for how I behaved (which, ya know, isn't great either, but it's the tool I had at the time), and doing all this reading and learning and trying to make sure that I never hurt folks like that again. Eventually, I went and saw a therapist who clarified some of the spaces where I was a bit too hard on myself, and I've done some wonderful work on the pieces of me that felt unlovable (which ended up being all wrapped up in trans/gender stuff, yay). But, I don't know, I still remember what I felt like, trying to share space with someone, trying to be respectful, but only having shitty behavioral options available. I both 1) fully take responsibility for how I was in that relationship and 2) acknowledge that I really didn't know any other way to behave. So goes.
So that's a 7000 words article, it's not clear what it's actually about just by scanning, other comments only work if you've read it, I have ADHD and I'm curious. Can someone help me out here?
So that's a 7000 words article, it's not clear what it's actually about just by scanning, other comments only work if you've read it, I have ADHD and I'm curious. Can someone help me out here?
Margot and Robert met at the movie theatre where she worked. After some flirting, they exchanged numbers and began texting each other. Over the holidays, they texted often and built up a rapport of jokes. When Margot returned to campus, Robert was hard to pin down and when they did meet up, things were awkward. They went to a bar but Margot was rejected as she was underage. Robert was angry but they reconciled and went to another bar, where they talked and Robert kissed her. They laughed and Margot was relieved to realize that Robert's odd behavior was due to his nervousness.
Margot and Robert see a movie and then go to Robert's house. They drink, kiss, and begin to engage in sexual activities. Margot is initially aroused, but then becomes uncomfortable and has difficulty breathing. Robert accidentally causes her pain, and then asks if she's ever had sex before. She laughs, but then stops when she realizes Robert was being sincere. They have sex, but Margot feels uncomfortable and disconnected the whole time. Afterwards, Robert asks what she wants to do, and Margot imagines telling him they should kill themselves. She then imagines someone in the future laughing at the story, but realizes there is no such person.
After they had sex, Robert talked about his feelings for her and his fear that she had reconnected with an old high-school boyfriend while she was away on break. After the date, Robert drove her back to her dorm late at night and then began sending her multiple text messages, but she was unsure of how to respond. When her roommate suggested that she just tell him she was not interested, she had a feeling of dread and imagined his reaction. Soon after, the roommate sent him a message that Margot was not interested and he responded politely, but then continued to send her messages. A month later, Margot saw Robert at the bar and her friends took her away. Robert continued to send her messages, asking what he did wrong and if Margot was with someone else. His last message called her a “whore”.
I don't know. "Nice guy" is a very loaded term. I'd describe it as a modern love story about two people not yet matured. Robert was a decent person but unrefined and hopelessly fragile. Margot was...
I don't know. "Nice guy" is a very loaded term.
I'd describe it as a modern love story about two people not yet matured. Robert was a decent person but unrefined and hopelessly fragile. Margot was caught up in a romantic fantasy and afraid of asserting to Robert what she wanted.
The summary doesn't really do it justice. GPT-3 focused on getting the events into the summary but not all of the more important emotional bits. I did that partly to see GPT-3's summarization...
The summary doesn't really do it justice. GPT-3 focused on getting the events into the summary but not all of the more important emotional bits. I did that partly to see GPT-3's summarization skills and also because I was feeling unmotivated to synthesize my own summary.
Yeah, wow. The summary is bland, the story is wonderful. Really puts a fine point on how important the framing and details are for telling an emotionally impactful story.
Yeah, wow. The summary is bland, the story is wonderful. Really puts a fine point on how important the framing and details are for telling an emotionally impactful story.
I think with the right prompts and procedures around the AI inputs/outputs you could get much better results. All I did was ask for a summary of the story in chunks (it's too long to go through in...
I think with the right prompts and procedures around the AI inputs/outputs you could get much better results. All I did was ask for a summary of the story in chunks (it's too long to go through in one pass).
It served me well. 7200 words is short-story territory, roughly 20 pages out of a book. I won't read 20 book pages unless I have strong reason to do so. Unfortunately, I will not be reading this...
It served me well. 7200 words is short-story territory, roughly 20 pages out of a book. I won't read 20 book pages unless I have strong reason to do so.
Unfortunately, I will not be reading this article.
I'm sorry. Something of such an extension would require significant effort on my part, given the ADHD, tinnitus, and many other readings that I am supposed to do as part of my regular routine....
I'm sorry. Something of such an extension would require significant effort on my part, given the ADHD, tinnitus, and many other readings that I am supposed to do as part of my regular routine. Reading is among the hardest things I ever do. It would require at least an hour (likely more), during the hours when medication is active, and great motivation.
That story clearly means a lot to you. I'd be very interested to learn more about why that is, and what it taught you that you believe all men must learn as well.
That story clearly means a lot to you. I'd be very interested to learn more about why that is, and what it taught you that you believe all men must learn as well.
I can understand how you’d see it that way (I could have sworn you posted some context about your current situation, but I’m not seeing it now). On the flip side, it can easily be taken a lot less...
I can understand how you’d see it that way (I could have sworn you posted some context about your current situation, but I’m not seeing it now). On the flip side, it can easily be taken a lot less favorably towards the Margot character. The most charitable reading is this one from @teaearlgraycold. Regardless of interpretation, I didn’t think it offered any particularly great insight compared to the many other times the topic has been explored, especially given it’s length and (semi-) fictional nature.
I’ll add that the Robert character is definitely the one I’m less sympathetic to because he weaponizes his insecurity by calling Margot a whore. It’s okay to be insecure but not okay to try to...
I’ll add that the Robert character is definitely the one I’m less sympathetic to because he weaponizes his insecurity by calling Margot a whore. It’s okay to be insecure but not okay to try to hurt people.
I really wish we had more stories in our world that covered wholesome personal growth. We have coming of age stories, but what about going to therapy stories, or taking shrooms in the woods with friends stories. I want literature to be fat with examples of dynamic humans that have endless capacity to self improve. Just keep writing that shit until everyone’s happy.
I deleted the comment above because it suddenly felt very useless. I've read the story. It is a good story. I am happy that you and others found valuable meaning in it. I am skeptical of passional...
I deleted the comment above because it suddenly felt very useless.
I've read the story. It is a good story. I am happy that you and others found valuable meaning in it. I am skeptical of passional statements that amount to "all men should read this", just because there are lots of men out there and maybe some don't.
I had this hypothesis that I wouldn't find much new insight in this story. I mean, the guy's an asshole. So don't be an asshole. Sometimes the object of your desire simply won't fancy you, and they don't need to provide a logical reason for that. This happens with everyone. Just accept and move on.
I'm an old man. I've been through similar things, I've watched similar stories. The way people reacted to this particular story made me think it contained some kind of mystical incantation that revealed all that is obscure.
It's cool that I've read it but only because it's a well-written tale. It won't change my life. But some may find it instructive on how "nice guys" think and act (edit: and how out of the blue being the target of a "nice guy" can be... That has got to put them in situation on constant anxiety. That's awful).
I'm not deep.
Edit: added a few sentences to make my point clearer.
I don't think there was anything wrong, but a "short story" tag is more to the point for this kind of thing. I could have read the "fiction" tag, but I missed it.
I don't think there was anything wrong, but a "short story" tag is more to the point for this kind of thing. I could have read the "fiction" tag, but I missed it.
The fiction tag was added by me mere moments ago. There's a small fiction tag on the page, but not something most would immediately be drawn to either as it reads like a byline when my eye glossed...
The fiction tag was added by me mere moments ago. There's a small fiction tag on the page, but not something most would immediately be drawn to either as it reads like a byline when my eye glossed over it.
An interesting companion for this story is "Cat Person" and Me, an article from the woman who Margot, it turns out, was based on. It reflects on the effects of the story on her, and on the person Robert was based on.
I'll pull in what sounds like "Margot"'s own summary:
I didn’t expect to read the whole thing. It’s getting late here and I’m tired. But there’s a morbid realism to the story that kept me hooked. I’m not sure what to even say. There are scraps of both characters that are components of my own self.
I’m thinking about how I used to watch daytime television about half-real domestic drama. It’s not really educational, but it does give you a very precise point in the space of humanity. And I can take care in giving that point, and all others in the collection, a wide berth.
Edit: Last thing before signing off - I’m glad I’m on Tildes for content like this. I’d never have found and read this on my own.
Shit, I mean, I read this when it came out and it kinda wrecked me? Like, still cis-masc identifying at the time (now enby/trans-femme), and, like, definitely some of the ways that I had been in relationships matched a bit too closely for comfort. But I just remember sending this around to some folks I was dating at the time and, god, it just hit really heavy for all of us. And, honestly, I'm a bit nervous to read it again.
Which one did you and the people you send it to relate to?
I mean, we fit the gender tropes -- I was remembering how I had hurt previous relationships by not really having or respecting boundaries, they were mostly remembering what it was like to have boundaries violated (I was closer to Robert, they were both closer to Margot). So, not entirely thematic, but that moment of "we're having sex and it's weird and I'm trying to be ok with what's happening" just brought on a whole heap of ache.
That, and like, no one in the story really gets to share and affirm physical wants? So, all the ache around trying to fit some sexual script that doesn't entirely work for anyone.
I don't know, I read this now and I empathize so deeply with Robert. Like, calling someone a whore isn't cool (unless someone's consenting into that), I remember a few fuck you's that I threw out towards the end of my first long-term relationship. But, like, I didn't know anything better, I only had ways of loving that were passed down from my parents that didn't work for anyone, and I was trying to act in a way that felt ok, but there was just so much that I didn't know, about myself, about relating, sex, all of it. I remember a time when someone accidentally kissed my then-girlfriend (I don't remember specifics, just that it was mostly benign) and just so many waves of insecurity came piling up that I couldn't talk to her for a few days. In large part, I thought that I was unlovable, and just got really lucky, but if they left I'd be unlovable again. Which, ya know, is a great way to be in a relationship.
When that relationship ended (unsurprisingly, I got dumped), I spent two nights a week at the library, journaling furiously, trying to process everything that happened and interrogating myself for how I behaved (which, ya know, isn't great either, but it's the tool I had at the time), and doing all this reading and learning and trying to make sure that I never hurt folks like that again. Eventually, I went and saw a therapist who clarified some of the spaces where I was a bit too hard on myself, and I've done some wonderful work on the pieces of me that felt unlovable (which ended up being all wrapped up in trans/gender stuff, yay). But, I don't know, I still remember what I felt like, trying to share space with someone, trying to be respectful, but only having shitty behavioral options available. I both 1) fully take responsibility for how I was in that relationship and 2) acknowledge that I really didn't know any other way to behave. So goes.
So that's a 7000 words article, it's not clear what it's actually about just by scanning, other comments only work if you've read it, I have ADHD and I'm curious. Can someone help me out here?
From the pen of GPT-3:
So a fairly long "nice guy" story?
I don't know. "Nice guy" is a very loaded term.
I'd describe it as a modern love story about two people not yet matured. Robert was a decent person but unrefined and hopelessly fragile. Margot was caught up in a romantic fantasy and afraid of asserting to Robert what she wanted.
Okay, got it.
The summary doesn't really do it justice. GPT-3 focused on getting the events into the summary but not all of the more important emotional bits. I did that partly to see GPT-3's summarization skills and also because I was feeling unmotivated to synthesize my own summary.
Yeah, wow. The summary is bland, the story is wonderful. Really puts a fine point on how important the framing and details are for telling an emotionally impactful story.
I think with the right prompts and procedures around the AI inputs/outputs you could get much better results. All I did was ask for a summary of the story in chunks (it's too long to go through in one pass).
It served me well. 7200 words is short-story territory, roughly 20 pages out of a book. I won't read 20 book pages unless I have strong reason to do so.
Unfortunately, I will not be reading this article.
I'm sorry. Something of such an extension would require significant effort on my part, given the ADHD, tinnitus, and many other readings that I am supposed to do as part of my regular routine. Reading is among the hardest things I ever do. It would require at least an hour (likely more), during the hours when medication is active, and great motivation.
That story clearly means a lot to you. I'd be very interested to learn more about why that is, and what it taught you that you believe all men must learn as well.
Can you elaborate on why?
(I have read it)
I can understand how you’d see it that way (I could have sworn you posted some context about your current situation, but I’m not seeing it now). On the flip side, it can easily be taken a lot less favorably towards the Margot character. The most charitable reading is this one from @teaearlgraycold. Regardless of interpretation, I didn’t think it offered any particularly great insight compared to the many other times the topic has been explored, especially given it’s length and (semi-) fictional nature.
I’ll add that the Robert character is definitely the one I’m less sympathetic to because he weaponizes his insecurity by calling Margot a whore. It’s okay to be insecure but not okay to try to hurt people.
I really wish we had more stories in our world that covered wholesome personal growth. We have coming of age stories, but what about going to therapy stories, or taking shrooms in the woods with friends stories. I want literature to be fat with examples of dynamic humans that have endless capacity to self improve. Just keep writing that shit until everyone’s happy.
I deleted the comment above because it suddenly felt very useless.
I've read the story. It is a good story. I am happy that you and others found valuable meaning in it. I am skeptical of passional statements that amount to "all men should read this", just because there are lots of men out there and maybe some don't.
I had this hypothesis that I wouldn't find much new insight in this story. I mean, the guy's an asshole. So don't be an asshole. Sometimes the object of your desire simply won't fancy you, and they don't need to provide a logical reason for that. This happens with everyone. Just accept and move on.
I'm an old man. I've been through similar things, I've watched similar stories. The way people reacted to this particular story made me think it contained some kind of mystical incantation that revealed all that is obscure.
It's cool that I've read it but only because it's a well-written tale. It won't change my life. But some may find it instructive on how "nice guys" think and act (edit: and how out of the blue being the target of a "nice guy" can be... That has got to put them in situation on constant anxiety. That's awful).
I'm not deep.
Edit: added a few sentences to make my point clearer.
It's worth noting, and I've added the tag, that it's less an "article" and more a story/tale as it is a work of fiction.
So it is a short-story?
Yeap.
Being a work of fiction seems like it'd be better suited to somewhere like ~arts.
I don't think there was anything wrong, but a "short story" tag is more to the point for this kind of thing. I could have read the "fiction" tag, but I missed it.
The fiction tag was added by me mere moments ago. There's a small fiction tag on the page, but not something most would immediately be drawn to either as it reads like a byline when my eye glossed over it.
Archived.