As the article states this has been a growing problem as vehicles have gotten more and more fuel efficient. As for collecting the mileage data, there's the obvious privacy concerns with the...
As the article states this has been a growing problem as vehicles have gotten more and more fuel efficient.
As for collecting the mileage data, there's the obvious privacy concerns with the utterly idiotic idea of tracking where people drive via the transponders and OBDII plugs. How they think it's a better idea than the inspector submitting the odometer reading each year, I cannot fathom. Sure, it's possible for people to cheat an odometer reading, but it's so far outside the realm of reality for the everyday driver that it's a non-issue.
Others question whether such a road user fee is fair. Rural drivers tend to drive farther just by virtue of where they live; should they always pay more?
Do they use more of the road because they drive farther? Yes. So should they always pay more for using more? Yes. Not a complicated question.
Critics also argue that the whole idea, like the gas tax itself, amounts to a regressive tax, one that will collect a larger share of low-income drivers’ earnings.
A fair point, on the surface, but not in reality. Low-income drivers are not going to be flocking to electric cars, they buy used cars and for a very long time the best value for money will remain in internal combustion and hybrid vehicles. Both of which should remain paying their share of taxes via fuel. Once it becomes clear that the federal fuel tax is no longer feasible the tax will likely shift to being income based or added onto the purchase prices of a new car. Both of which won't effect low-income drivers as they'll be given tax breaks if it's income based and won't be paying new car taxes as they won't be buying a new car.
The proposal would see electric vehicles pay an annual tax based on their miles-per-gallon equivalent—basically, how much energy they consume. “That way, the electric Hummer is going to be paying more than the electric Civic,” says Max Baumhefner, a senior attorney in NRDC’s climate and clean energy program. “And that’s the way it should be.”
The electric Hummer should be paying more than the electric Civic, but MPGe will, in time, mean nothing as at some point a future generation will ask "miles per gallon of what?" and the MPGe calculation is not based on real world conditions, just as the EPA's gasoline MPG numbers rarely reflect real world driving, and is at risk of being magically recalculated to shift the tax burden. A much simpler way is to make larger vehicles pay more is by weight. An electric Hummer will be heavier than an electric Civic, it will therefore require more energy to move and wear roads down faster. So you base the tax on vehicle weight, plain and simple. It'll also push manufacturers to use lightweight materials and perhaps stop shoving more and more unnecessary luxury items along with continually making the cars larger. The current generation Honda Civic is the size of previous generation Honda Accords (and the bloating exists across all vehicles).
I agree, weight should be a part of the calculation. Heck, I think it should be part of the equation right now for gas powered cars. After all, heavier vehicles are more stressful for the roads...
I agree, weight should be a part of the calculation. Heck, I think it should be part of the equation right now for gas powered cars. After all, heavier vehicles are more stressful for the roads than lighter vehicles.
This chart that I've seen floating around the internet (no proper source for it, sorry, grain of salt advised) suggests that the function might be something like wear(weight) = (some constant) *...
This chart that I've seen floating around the internet (no proper source for it, sorry, grain of salt advised) suggests that the function might be something like wear(weight) = (some constant) * weight^4 or maybe weight^4.3 - that is an unusually large exponent, as far as physical "laws" go.
I wonder what a tax based on that formula would do to the economics of the electric F150 that's been in the news the last few days. That's something like 20% heavier than the combustion version,...
I wonder what a tax based on that formula would do to the economics of the electric F150 that's been in the news the last few days. That's something like 20% heavier than the combustion version, apparently.
If that holds across other popular vehicle types, and wear increases to the fourth power, this could be a significant issue - a 20% heavier vehicle causing 1.24 times the wear would need to pay double the tax to account for it.
Even if we take the formula at face value, all individual transport vehicles are almost negligible compared to commercial vehicles. But I don't think it is all about road wear. Other factors...
Even if we take the formula at face value, all individual transport vehicles are almost negligible compared to commercial vehicles. But I don't think it is all about road wear. Other factors should come into play when it comes to road funding. Think for example about the parts of the network that have to be built for your own use, even if shared with others: Basically, the amount of road surface we need grows with usage. This means a) land unavailable for other use and b) cost for construction and maintenance. A residential area without individual vehicles (or with a negligible amount thereof) could be a relatively narrow one-way road that is sufficient for occasional use by various kinds of logistics, e.g. waste disposal, mail, parcel services and the occasional truckload of furniture. All of those should be rare enough that this road could be used as sidewalk most of the time, meaning it needs no actual sidewalk. The difference in infrastructure cost between this model and the current default would then be taken from the residents.
Fair attribution of this cost seems like a Sisyphean task.
Just a few thoughts. Beyond that, I think that an electric F150 seems kind of ridiculous. Personally, I'm a huge fan of car sharing services and hopefully any day nowTM shared self-driving cars. I don't need a car nearly every day, but sometimes I just need to do something that public transport can't help me with. Often times, this gap can easily be bridged by an EV. However, where I am, I haven't heard much about EV sharing services that offer large vehicles in case I would need to haul bulky stuff. Guess that's the market the EV F150 is aiming for? :D
By weight is the case in 14 states for registration fees at the very least. I'm willing to guess that there likely aren't a lot of states that vary the inspection fee based on the weight of the...
By weight is the case in 14 states for registration fees at the very least. I'm willing to guess that there likely aren't a lot of states that vary the inspection fee based on the weight of the vehicle for passenger cars, but do for commercial vehicles.
I think the mileage driven in a year fee is interesting, but I do see some potential issues. With a gas tax, you pay every time you fill up. If I go to register my vehicle and am suddenly slapped...
I think the mileage driven in a year fee is interesting, but I do see some potential issues.
With a gas tax, you pay every time you fill up. If I go to register my vehicle and am suddenly slapped with a $500 mileage fee, that's hard to pay. Not sure what the solution is.
A portion of the gas tax goes to the state (not sure how much), if I'm doing consistent road trips across states, or live in a small state that sees me do the majority of my driving in a different state, those states will see $0 from me vs the small amounts they might get from me fueling up mid-trip.
In regards to your last bit, I do think whatever formula they use if they go with a mileage tax would have to include the weight of the vehicle empty, as that's what has the biggest impact on the road condition (as far as I can tell.)
There's a fair number of US states that don't require annual inspection. My state only requires an inspection when transferring registration of a vehicle, and it is a VERY cursory inspection....
How they think it's a better idea than the inspector submitting the odometer reading each year, I cannot fathom.
There's a fair number of US states that don't require annual inspection. My state only requires an inspection when transferring registration of a vehicle, and it is a VERY cursory inspection.
I'm not saying that's an insurmountable problem or anything, but for those states or for a Federal mileage tax, it wouldn't be as simple as just gathering odometer readings from inspections that are already happening.
But all states have a vehicle registration, usually annually or biennially, that can take the odometer reading at that time. I imagine they'll likely default to a "this is the average number of...
There's a fair number of US states that don't require annual inspection. My state only requires an inspection when transferring registration of a vehicle, and it is a VERY cursory inspection.
But all states have a vehicle registration, usually annually or biennially, that can take the odometer reading at that time. I imagine they'll likely default to a "this is the average number of miles driven per year by people in this state" default amount or you can provide proof (via an in person check at the registration office) if your mileage is lower and you wish to pay the lesser fee.
I don't know what the 'average' experience is, but in my state vehicle registration is basically getting a notice that the car with X info (make, model, vin, etc.) will require a registration fee...
I don't know what the 'average' experience is, but in my state vehicle registration is basically getting a notice that the car with X info (make, model, vin, etc.) will require a registration fee of Y dollars, and after you pay it they will mail you your registration card and license plate sticker. The only other requirement is the occasional smog check, but battery electric vehicles don't have to do those.
@Eabryt is correct in my suggestion of adding a default mileage, with the opportunity to appeal by having the odometer inspected for true mileage, to the registration cost. Most states that I'm...
@Eabryt is correct in my suggestion of adding a default mileage, with the opportunity to appeal by having the odometer inspected for true mileage, to the registration cost.
Most states that I'm aware of that do the smog checks are doing a safety check at that time as well, which would still be required of an electric car as they're checking (at least here in Texas) that the tires have enough tread to be safe, the car stops safely, horn and lights work, mirrors are present, and so on.
I think that's why @Augustusferdinand suggested there would be a default "average mileage" fee and then you could bring it in to a shop to get some sort of certification done to prove that you...
I think that's why @Augustusferdinand suggested there would be a default "average mileage" fee and then you could bring it in to a shop to get some sort of certification done to prove that you drove less than the average mileage and therefore should pay less.
Fair point and dependent on the area it shouldn't be that much. Here in Texas there's a $0.20 per gallon tax on top of the federal $0.184 tax. At 10,000 miles per year and in a relatively...
Fair point and dependent on the area it shouldn't be that much. Here in Texas there's a $0.20 per gallon tax on top of the federal $0.184 tax. At 10,000 miles per year and in a relatively inefficient vehicle averaging 20mpg over those miles it's a $192 bill through the course of the year, assuming an equivalent per mile tax on electrics and it's pretty easy to pay if you're in the income bracket that can afford an electric car.
Like many things it'll be a wash. Just as you may live in one state and drive through another, that state will have a similar individual that lives there but drives through yours. Could possibly be an issue in the small state ridden east coast, but I don't think it'll be enough to be a concern. When I've visited the north east for business and people there asked me where I had dinner the night before they seemed shocked that I was willing to drive to another state to get it. Reality was here in Texas I've driven further for dinner than I had while there.
Where we're going, we don't need … roads. Joke appart, yes, the fiscal revenue based on fossil fuels will be displaced elsewhere, and not everybody will be pleased.
Where we're going, we don't need … roads.
Joke appart, yes, the fiscal revenue based on fossil fuels will be displaced elsewhere, and not everybody will be pleased.
As the article states this has been a growing problem as vehicles have gotten more and more fuel efficient.
As for collecting the mileage data, there's the obvious privacy concerns with the utterly idiotic idea of tracking where people drive via the transponders and OBDII plugs. How they think it's a better idea than the inspector submitting the odometer reading each year, I cannot fathom. Sure, it's possible for people to cheat an odometer reading, but it's so far outside the realm of reality for the everyday driver that it's a non-issue.
Do they use more of the road because they drive farther? Yes. So should they always pay more for using more? Yes. Not a complicated question.
A fair point, on the surface, but not in reality. Low-income drivers are not going to be flocking to electric cars, they buy used cars and for a very long time the best value for money will remain in internal combustion and hybrid vehicles. Both of which should remain paying their share of taxes via fuel. Once it becomes clear that the federal fuel tax is no longer feasible the tax will likely shift to being income based or added onto the purchase prices of a new car. Both of which won't effect low-income drivers as they'll be given tax breaks if it's income based and won't be paying new car taxes as they won't be buying a new car.
The electric Hummer should be paying more than the electric Civic, but MPGe will, in time, mean nothing as at some point a future generation will ask "miles per gallon of what?" and the MPGe calculation is not based on real world conditions, just as the EPA's gasoline MPG numbers rarely reflect real world driving, and is at risk of being magically recalculated to shift the tax burden. A much simpler way is to make larger vehicles pay more is by weight. An electric Hummer will be heavier than an electric Civic, it will therefore require more energy to move and wear roads down faster. So you base the tax on vehicle weight, plain and simple. It'll also push manufacturers to use lightweight materials and perhaps stop shoving more and more unnecessary luxury items along with continually making the cars larger. The current generation Honda Civic is the size of previous generation Honda Accords (and the bloating exists across all vehicles).
I agree, weight should be a part of the calculation. Heck, I think it should be part of the equation right now for gas powered cars. After all, heavier vehicles are more stressful for the roads than lighter vehicles.
Iirc the relation between vehicle weight and road wear is more than linear, i.e. trucks cause disproportionally more wear.
This chart that I've seen floating around the internet (no proper source for it, sorry, grain of salt advised) suggests that the function might be something like wear(weight) = (some constant) * weight^4 or maybe weight^4.3 - that is an unusually large exponent, as far as physical "laws" go.
I wonder what a tax based on that formula would do to the economics of the electric F150 that's been in the news the last few days. That's something like 20% heavier than the combustion version, apparently.
If that holds across other popular vehicle types, and wear increases to the fourth power, this could be a significant issue - a 20% heavier vehicle causing 1.24 times the wear would need to pay double the tax to account for it.
Even if we take the formula at face value, all individual transport vehicles are almost negligible compared to commercial vehicles. But I don't think it is all about road wear. Other factors should come into play when it comes to road funding. Think for example about the parts of the network that have to be built for your own use, even if shared with others: Basically, the amount of road surface we need grows with usage. This means a) land unavailable for other use and b) cost for construction and maintenance. A residential area without individual vehicles (or with a negligible amount thereof) could be a relatively narrow one-way road that is sufficient for occasional use by various kinds of logistics, e.g. waste disposal, mail, parcel services and the occasional truckload of furniture. All of those should be rare enough that this road could be used as sidewalk most of the time, meaning it needs no actual sidewalk. The difference in infrastructure cost between this model and the current default would then be taken from the residents.
Fair attribution of this cost seems like a Sisyphean task.
Just a few thoughts. Beyond that, I think that an electric F150 seems kind of ridiculous. Personally, I'm a huge fan of car sharing services and hopefully any day nowTM shared self-driving cars. I don't need a car nearly every day, but sometimes I just need to do something that public transport can't help me with. Often times, this gap can easily be bridged by an EV. However, where I am, I haven't heard much about EV sharing services that offer large vehicles in case I would need to haul bulky stuff. Guess that's the market the EV F150 is aiming for? :D
By weight is the case in 14 states for registration fees at the very least. I'm willing to guess that there likely aren't a lot of states that vary the inspection fee based on the weight of the vehicle for passenger cars, but do for commercial vehicles.
I think the mileage driven in a year fee is interesting, but I do see some potential issues.
With a gas tax, you pay every time you fill up. If I go to register my vehicle and am suddenly slapped with a $500 mileage fee, that's hard to pay. Not sure what the solution is.
A portion of the gas tax goes to the state (not sure how much), if I'm doing consistent road trips across states, or live in a small state that sees me do the majority of my driving in a different state, those states will see $0 from me vs the small amounts they might get from me fueling up mid-trip.
In regards to your last bit, I do think whatever formula they use if they go with a mileage tax would have to include the weight of the vehicle empty, as that's what has the biggest impact on the road condition (as far as I can tell.)
There's a fair number of US states that don't require annual inspection. My state only requires an inspection when transferring registration of a vehicle, and it is a VERY cursory inspection.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/a-surprising-number-of-u-s-states-dont-require-vehicle-inspections/
I'm not saying that's an insurmountable problem or anything, but for those states or for a Federal mileage tax, it wouldn't be as simple as just gathering odometer readings from inspections that are already happening.
But all states have a vehicle registration, usually annually or biennially, that can take the odometer reading at that time. I imagine they'll likely default to a "this is the average number of miles driven per year by people in this state" default amount or you can provide proof (via an in person check at the registration office) if your mileage is lower and you wish to pay the lesser fee.
I don't know what the 'average' experience is, but in my state vehicle registration is basically getting a notice that the car with X info (make, model, vin, etc.) will require a registration fee of Y dollars, and after you pay it they will mail you your registration card and license plate sticker. The only other requirement is the occasional smog check, but battery electric vehicles don't have to do those.
@Eabryt is correct in my suggestion of adding a default mileage, with the opportunity to appeal by having the odometer inspected for true mileage, to the registration cost.
Most states that I'm aware of that do the smog checks are doing a safety check at that time as well, which would still be required of an electric car as they're checking (at least here in Texas) that the tires have enough tread to be safe, the car stops safely, horn and lights work, mirrors are present, and so on.
I think that's why @Augustusferdinand suggested there would be a default "average mileage" fee and then you could bring it in to a shop to get some sort of certification done to prove that you drove less than the average mileage and therefore should pay less.
Fair point and dependent on the area it shouldn't be that much. Here in Texas there's a $0.20 per gallon tax on top of the federal $0.184 tax. At 10,000 miles per year and in a relatively inefficient vehicle averaging 20mpg over those miles it's a $192 bill through the course of the year, assuming an equivalent per mile tax on electrics and it's pretty easy to pay if you're in the income bracket that can afford an electric car.
Like many things it'll be a wash. Just as you may live in one state and drive through another, that state will have a similar individual that lives there but drives through yours. Could possibly be an issue in the small state ridden east coast, but I don't think it'll be enough to be a concern. When I've visited the north east for business and people there asked me where I had dinner the night before they seemed shocked that I was willing to drive to another state to get it. Reality was here in Texas I've driven further for dinner than I had while there.
Where we're going, we don't need … roads.
Joke appart, yes, the fiscal revenue based on fossil fuels will be displaced elsewhere, and not everybody will be pleased.