I wonder how they are going to justify her trying to skin a 100 dogs for a coat to make her sympathetic to the audience. On the other hand, they might try lean into the fact that a lot of...
I wonder how they are going to justify her trying to skin a 100 dogs for a coat to make her sympathetic to the audience. On the other hand, they might try lean into the fact that a lot of teenagers seeing this movie probably haven't seen the original.
I don't understand this meme. Villain character studies are usually more interesting when the character is given sympathetic motivations. Breaking Bad certainly wouldn't have worked without...
I don't understand this meme. Villain character studies are usually more interesting when the character is given sympathetic motivations. Breaking Bad certainly wouldn't have worked without Walter's pay for cancer/provide for my family angle.
Yes, but the person you are replying to is basically asking "how on earth could you possibly make Cruella de Vil into a sympathetic character when her whole schtick is that she is a completely...
Yes, but the person you are replying to is basically asking "how on earth could you possibly make Cruella de Vil into a sympathetic character when her whole schtick is that she is a completely self-absorbed aristocrat that is perfectly willing to skin 100 puppies so she can have a nice jacket for herself?"
Do villains need justification? Can one not want to rule the world just to do so? Can her entire reason for trying to skin 100 puppies to form a stylish, soft, and unique coat not just be the...
Do villains need justification? Can one not want to rule the world just to do so? Can her entire reason for trying to skin 100 puppies to form a stylish, soft, and unique coat not just be the desire for the coat itself?
Sure, most Disney villains are definitely like that, but at least in Maleficent they attempted to paint her in a much more sympathetic light. And that's the only way these Disney villain origin...
Sure, most Disney villains are definitely like that, but at least in Maleficent they attempted to paint her in a much more sympathetic light. And that's the only way these Disney villain origin story movies can really work, IMO. Otherwise, as @Grzmot said, why would you root for, or care about the outcome for, the main character in the movie if they are just irredeemably evil right from the beginning? Without an arc starting with them as being at least somewhat worthy of sympathy, you will get less emotional investment from the audience as the events play out. That's screenwriting 101 kinda shit.
I don't think you need to root for the protagonist. And not every action needs to be justified for them to be sympathetic. I haven't seen Joker, but wasn't that a big movie with a villainous...
I don't think you need to root for the protagonist. And not every action needs to be justified for them to be sympathetic. I haven't seen Joker, but wasn't that a big movie with a villainous protagonist? Maleficent was the hero in her movie, but based on this trailer, I don't think that's what they're going for here.
You do need to root for the protagonist, or else why would you watch a movie? Yes of course movies with bad people as the protagonist exist like Joker or Breaking Bad (tv show in that case)....
You do need to root for the protagonist, or else why would you watch a movie? Yes of course movies with bad people as the protagonist exist like Joker or Breaking Bad (tv show in that case). Breaking Bad makes Walt sympathetic by giving him a good cause for his bad actions, and the Joker just wants to be happy and is turned away at every corner from the people that could've avoided him cracking.
Cruella is irredeemable, which fits a childrens movie as the villain, but is a problem if you want her as the protagonist.
To see what will happen? I think you just need to make the character(s) interesting enough. Besides, there are plenty of stories with unlikable protagonists.
You do need to root for the protagonist, or else why would you watch a movie?
To see what will happen? I think you just need to make the character(s) interesting enough. Besides, there are plenty of stories with unlikable protagonists.
Yes... but again, he was a sympathetic one. Not even mildly in that case either, as he was portrayed as having a disability, and being a generally nice man at the start of the film, before life...
I haven't seen Joker, but wasn't that a big movie with a villainous protagonist?
Yes... but again, he was a sympathetic one. Not even mildly in that case either, as he was portrayed as having a disability, and being a generally nice man at the start of the film, before life (and horrible people) shit on him repeatedly until he eventually snapped.
I'll admit to perhaps not being the best consumer example for this, but I disagree. I don't know the backgrounds of any of the players on my local sports team, yet I root for them anyway. I know...
Also you need to engage the audience somehow and get them to root for the protagonist.
I'll admit to perhaps not being the best consumer example for this, but I disagree.
I don't know the backgrounds of any of the players on my local sports team, yet I root for them anyway. I know some of the background of a few sumo wrestlers, of those I know there is only one I actually root for and I did so before knowing their background, I just liked their style of sumo. I can and will root for you just for the sake of wanting you to win with zero other context considered, no different than someone posting their personal project here and wishing them the best.
I'd go so far as to say that the protagonist doesn't need sympathizing at all so long as the antagonists are shown to be in need punishment.
Well, if we're going to start disingenuous arguments I'll happily play along as devil's advocate: The dalmatians would have been better off having never been born instead of being forced into the...
Well, if we're going to start disingenuous arguments I'll happily play along as devil's advocate:
The dalmatians would have been better off having never been born instead of being forced into the world as part of the puppy mill industry churning out hideously inbred "pure breed" dogs; the mills being the obvious implied source of the 82 puppies purchased by Ms. de Vil. Since the Dearlys elected to breed their purebred dalmatians, thus continuing the cycle of inbreeding (as well as the pet overpopulation problem), they are directly at fault for the 15 dogs Pongo sired. Fifteen more inbred dogs plagued with health issues and destined to live short, miserable lives stricken with glaucoma, cataracts, entropion, copper hepatopathy, hyperuricemia, hip dysplasia, deafness, dilated cardiomyopathy, osteochondritis dissecans, laryngeal paralysis, epilepsy, eosinophilic panosteitis, malocclusion, oligodontia, sebaceous adenitis, and an overall genetic predisposition for skin conditions, allergies, and mange.
So in a world where greedy and self-centered individuals decide it is in their own best interest to breed animals who are guaranteed to unnecessarily suffer a range of conditions from seizures and heart disease to blindness, deafness, and unending pain because those same people find them aesthetically pleasing, I put forth that Cruella de Vil is a merciful individual by providing a way those dalmatians can serve a purpose beyond suffering purely for the enjoyment of others and prior to them experiencing said suffering in the first place.
The bit that makes it especially good/awful is that the movie did lead to a burst in popularity that caused puppy mills to focus on dalmatians. Combined with their unsuitability for interacting...
The bit that makes it especially good/awful is that the movie did lead to a burst in popularity that caused puppy mills to focus on dalmatians. Combined with their unsuitability for interacting with little kids, they were bred en masse and then abandoned just as quickly.
And one of the writers is Tony McNamara who also co-wrote The Favourite. So this team is in no way new to the idea of unsympathetic, irredeemable main characters.
I certainly got a lot of Margot Robbie vibes, which was not surprising since the director Craig Gillespie also did I, Tonya.
And one of the writers is Tony McNamara who also co-wrote The Favourite. So this team is in no way new to the idea of unsympathetic, irredeemable main characters.
I wonder how they are going to justify her trying to skin a 100 dogs for a coat to make her sympathetic to the audience. On the other hand, they might try lean into the fact that a lot of teenagers seeing this movie probably haven't seen the original.
I don't understand this meme. Villain character studies are usually more interesting when the character is given sympathetic motivations. Breaking Bad certainly wouldn't have worked without Walter's pay for cancer/provide for my family angle.
Yes, but the person you are replying to is basically asking "how on earth could you possibly make Cruella de Vil into a sympathetic character when her whole schtick is that she is a completely self-absorbed aristocrat that is perfectly willing to skin 100 puppies so she can have a nice jacket for herself?"
Do villains need justification? Can one not want to rule the world just to do so? Can her entire reason for trying to skin 100 puppies to form a stylish, soft, and unique coat not just be the desire for the coat itself?
It's a Disney movie so yes. Also you need to engage the audience somehow and get them to root for the protagonist.
Aren't Disney villains famous for being irredeemably evil and unsympatethic?
Sure, most Disney villains are definitely like that, but at least in Maleficent they attempted to paint her in a much more sympathetic light. And that's the only way these Disney villain origin story movies can really work, IMO. Otherwise, as @Grzmot said, why would you root for, or care about the outcome for, the main character in the movie if they are just irredeemably evil right from the beginning? Without an arc starting with them as being at least somewhat worthy of sympathy, you will get less emotional investment from the audience as the events play out. That's screenwriting 101 kinda shit.
cc: @AugustusFerdinand
I don't think you need to root for the protagonist. And not every action needs to be justified for them to be sympathetic. I haven't seen Joker, but wasn't that a big movie with a villainous protagonist? Maleficent was the hero in her movie, but based on this trailer, I don't think that's what they're going for here.
You do need to root for the protagonist, or else why would you watch a movie? Yes of course movies with bad people as the protagonist exist like Joker or Breaking Bad (tv show in that case). Breaking Bad makes Walt sympathetic by giving him a good cause for his bad actions, and the Joker just wants to be happy and is turned away at every corner from the people that could've avoided him cracking.
Cruella is irredeemable, which fits a childrens movie as the villain, but is a problem if you want her as the protagonist.
To see what will happen? I think you just need to make the character(s) interesting enough. Besides, there are plenty of stories with unlikable protagonists.
Yes... but again, he was a sympathetic one. Not even mildly in that case either, as he was portrayed as having a disability, and being a generally nice man at the start of the film, before life (and horrible people) shit on him repeatedly until he eventually snapped.
I'll admit to perhaps not being the best consumer example for this, but I disagree.
I don't know the backgrounds of any of the players on my local sports team, yet I root for them anyway. I know some of the background of a few sumo wrestlers, of those I know there is only one I actually root for and I did so before knowing their background, I just liked their style of sumo. I can and will root for you just for the sake of wanting you to win with zero other context considered, no different than someone posting their personal project here and wishing them the best.
I'd go so far as to say that the protagonist doesn't need sympathizing at all so long as the antagonists are shown to be in need punishment.
Yeah, those dalmatians really just needed to be murdered.
Well, if we're going to start disingenuous arguments I'll happily play along as devil's advocate:
The dalmatians would have been better off having never been born instead of being forced into the world as part of the puppy mill industry churning out hideously inbred "pure breed" dogs; the mills being the obvious implied source of the 82 puppies purchased by Ms. de Vil. Since the Dearlys elected to breed their purebred dalmatians, thus continuing the cycle of inbreeding (as well as the pet overpopulation problem), they are directly at fault for the 15 dogs Pongo sired. Fifteen more inbred dogs plagued with health issues and destined to live short, miserable lives stricken with glaucoma, cataracts, entropion, copper hepatopathy, hyperuricemia, hip dysplasia, deafness, dilated cardiomyopathy, osteochondritis dissecans, laryngeal paralysis, epilepsy, eosinophilic panosteitis, malocclusion, oligodontia, sebaceous adenitis, and an overall genetic predisposition for skin conditions, allergies, and mange.
So in a world where greedy and self-centered individuals decide it is in their own best interest to breed animals who are guaranteed to unnecessarily suffer a range of conditions from seizures and heart disease to blindness, deafness, and unending pain because those same people find them aesthetically pleasing, I put forth that Cruella de Vil is a merciful individual by providing a way those dalmatians can serve a purpose beyond suffering purely for the enjoyment of others and prior to them experiencing said suffering in the first place.
Beautiful. Perfect. :)
Thanks! I thought it was a pretty good one.
The bit that makes it especially good/awful is that the movie did lead to a burst in popularity that caused puppy mills to focus on dalmatians. Combined with their unsuitability for interacting with little kids, they were bred en masse and then abandoned just as quickly.
I guess the answer to "can it?" in this case, depends on if you think Disney would ever produce a slasher film lmao.
Definitely not. They have 50th Century Fox for that kind of shit.
Did you notice how her car had "Devil" on the license plate? Very subtle yet deep detail.
Your sarcasm isn’t lost on me ;) but I believe that’s a detail originating from the original movie.
Looks like it's only in the live-action remake actually, though I haven't read the book.
I think you may be right. And apparently her last name is de Vil so maybe there is actually a bit more subtlety than I first thought. :)
Yikes.
that summs up my feelings very well :-)
Possibly it's because they already created a 101 Dalmatians remake in '96 (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115433/).
And one of the writers is Tony McNamara who also co-wrote The Favourite. So this team is in no way new to the idea of unsympathetic, irredeemable main characters.