archive WSJ claims that this reconstruction comes from multiple sources, which is pretty damning. Though I've also seen people claiming it's over the top. Personally, I don't quite think this has...
WSJ claims that this reconstruction comes from multiple sources, which is pretty damning. Though I've also seen people claiming it's over the top. Personally, I don't quite think this has proven it was Ukraine quite yet but boy, the effects of this are going to be difficult to gauge but probably not good for Ukraine.
That's an interesting thing. If I recall, the pipeline was in international waters... If you're waging asymmetric warfare against a, at the time, potentially superior force should you pull that...
That's an interesting thing. If I recall, the pipeline was in international waters... If you're waging asymmetric warfare against a, at the time, potentially superior force should you pull that punch? Can the international community go "eh, they were facing an existential threat. It tracks. Don't go doing that again."
Like, we can't hold them to the standard of NATO partners because... Well, they weren't in NATO so it's not like we can say "they should've collaborated their clandestine operation" because it's not like they're in FRME or FVEY.
Now, the staging it out of other countries, I get that's a black eye but it was in international waters and an attempt to cut off funding to an existential threat... Like, I get it? The failure to call off the mission is also something but with the US still sanctioning Russia I don't really know if the global courts will be bloodthirsty on this one.
At the very least, it seems that many expect that it will affect German politics. While they're my neighbours I don't know enough about the current atmosphere there on this to say what the long...
At the very least, it seems that many expect that it will affect German politics. While they're my neighbours I don't know enough about the current atmosphere there on this to say what the long term effects are.
Assuming that Ukraine really did pull this one, if I were in their shoes I'd just deny, deny and deny. There's enough infighting going on over other topics and certain wars.
Allow me to speak for a nation of 80 million that is quite divided on the topic: Generally not good. To elaborate: I'm seeing the suspicion all over that this will benefit radical right wing...
While they're my neighbours I don't know enough about the current atmosphere there on this to say what the long term effects are.
Allow me to speak for a nation of 80 million that is quite divided on the topic:
Generally not good.
To elaborate:
I'm seeing the suspicion all over that this will benefit radical right wing parties (BSW, AfD) (yes, BSW is right wing in my book. They put the socialism back in nationalism. So what?[1]) How? "Ukraine is the real warmonger here!" hits a lot harder if Ukraine commits hostile acts against a friendly, peaceful nation.
It's generally regarded as a stupid and pointless move. NS was a dead asset. Russia was using it to try to blackmail Germany, but by the time of the attack, Germany had already massively invested in securing alternate suppliers. We were very much on track then already to making it through the winter, which was always going to be the critical concern. And there was broad political consensus to not resort to Russian gas.
Poland, being an ostensible ally, being involved in the execution and/or in protecting the perpetrators is viewed negatively. Ukraine doing this out of desperation, tolerable. Poland? What the fuck were they thinking except "fuck the germans, lol"? Meanwhile both Ukraine and Poland had active pipelines carrying russian gas.
The thought of being pushed around by your allies using violent means, while already doing the things that they want you to do, is quite unpleasant.
The event sparked fear of further sabotage by Russia. That's also not very kind.
An important space to watch is Poland's exact government involvement here: That the PIS government sabotaged Germany at every opportunity is no secret. Currently there's speculation that the subsequent government (which was expected to be a lot more friendly to Germany) continued to stonewall investigations and/or refused to enforce a warrant against a wanted suspect.
I think internationally the damage of this attack is massively understated. This isn't just deactivating an unused piece of equipment, it's a violent, terrorizing (so as not to say terrorist) attack on essential infrastructure.
Personally, if this turns out to be true, or at least substantially likely to be true, I'd hope to see consequences in Ukraine and/or Poland. If there's no consequences, I think Ukraine's entry into EU gets a lot more difficult. Respectively, I see NATO massively weakened if internal sabotage is considered tolerable. Remember that alliances like this are only as effective as each partner's faith in the alliance to come to their aid. If Poland is willing to do this, will they come to our aid? This needs to be addressed and resolved.
[1] That's right, the querfront pieces of shit are basically already saying they'll intend to cooperate with AfD. They're the same shade of brown.
I was afraid of something like this. Christ I hope the WSJ's report was wrong in many ways. To be honest, I can understand Ukraine's perspective more than the Polish one here. Ukraine's being...
I was afraid of something like this. Christ I hope the WSJ's report was wrong in many ways. To be honest, I can understand Ukraine's perspective more than the Polish one here. Ukraine's being invaded in the present but the Poles, well they do certainly have a history of getting invaded, but they really should've known better if they actively helped one way or another.
In all likelihood a stupid move nonetheless. Please just let this have been Russia or Belarus or something...
There's rumor level news so I won't cite it, nevermind that I'd have to find it again first, but: Supposedly, Zelenskyy had consented to at least the planning of the operation. Due to CIA pressure...
There's rumor level news so I won't cite it, nevermind that I'd have to find it again first, but:
Supposedly, Zelenskyy had consented to at least the planning of the operation. Due to CIA pressure (thank fuck there's a sane ally somewhere!) he called it off, but Zaluzhnyi apparently then did it anyway? Kinda convenient, considering his head already rolled. As for Zelenskyy, I can understand planning and prepping such an Op, just in case German will falters. Honestly, if my country had done a stupid and Ukraine had taken brash action in response, I could accept the necessity, so won't blame them for being prepared.
Please just let this have been Russia or Belarus or something...
I could even accept the UAE or similar. That'd make this timeline even more deranged, but deranged in a way I can cope with.
Given how, since Brexit and Trump, this world has been on a rollercoaster(and this decade sure is accelerating part of it christ), I'm wondering whether the Mayans simply missed one leap year...
I could even accept the UAE or similar. That'd make this timeline even more deranged, but deranged in a way I can cope with.
Given how, since Brexit and Trump, this world has been on a rollercoaster(and this decade sure is accelerating part of it christ), I'm wondering whether the Mayans simply missed one leap year cycle. As it sure looks like that instead of 2012, the world ended at 2016.
Supposedly, Zelenskyy had consented to at least the planning of the operation. Due to CIA pressure (thank fuck there's a sane ally somewhere!) he called it off, but Zaluzhnyi apparently then did it anyway?
Yeah, the article from the WSJ also mentions this, and that it was decided(?) at a meeting involving lots of alcohol and the high of just fending of the Russians preventing a quick defeat. With that in mind I can absolutely see the scenario of one guy running of on its own after making jokes about it as well but eh, we'll see when the investigation hopefully(or maybe not so hopefully....) turns up whatever the fuck happened.
Thanks for your insights from your neighbour in the west. We like you guys nowadays, and hopefully this won't tear up some already strained relations on our continent. I prefer the way the continent is over Cold War, the World Wars, or before that.
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WSJ claims that this reconstruction comes from multiple sources, which is pretty damning. Though I've also seen people claiming it's over the top. Personally, I don't quite think this has proven it was Ukraine quite yet but boy, the effects of this are going to be difficult to gauge but probably not good for Ukraine.
That's an interesting thing. If I recall, the pipeline was in international waters... If you're waging asymmetric warfare against a, at the time, potentially superior force should you pull that punch? Can the international community go "eh, they were facing an existential threat. It tracks. Don't go doing that again."
Like, we can't hold them to the standard of NATO partners because... Well, they weren't in NATO so it's not like we can say "they should've collaborated their clandestine operation" because it's not like they're in FRME or FVEY.
Now, the staging it out of other countries, I get that's a black eye but it was in international waters and an attempt to cut off funding to an existential threat... Like, I get it? The failure to call off the mission is also something but with the US still sanctioning Russia I don't really know if the global courts will be bloodthirsty on this one.
At the very least, it seems that many expect that it will affect German politics. While they're my neighbours I don't know enough about the current atmosphere there on this to say what the long term effects are.
Assuming that Ukraine really did pull this one, if I were in their shoes I'd just deny, deny and deny. There's enough infighting going on over other topics and certain wars.
Allow me to speak for a nation of 80 million that is quite divided on the topic:
Generally not good.
To elaborate:
I think internationally the damage of this attack is massively understated. This isn't just deactivating an unused piece of equipment, it's a violent, terrorizing (so as not to say terrorist) attack on essential infrastructure.
Personally, if this turns out to be true, or at least substantially likely to be true, I'd hope to see consequences in Ukraine and/or Poland. If there's no consequences, I think Ukraine's entry into EU gets a lot more difficult. Respectively, I see NATO massively weakened if internal sabotage is considered tolerable. Remember that alliances like this are only as effective as each partner's faith in the alliance to come to their aid. If Poland is willing to do this, will they come to our aid? This needs to be addressed and resolved.
[1] That's right, the querfront pieces of shit are basically already saying they'll intend to cooperate with AfD. They're the same shade of brown.
I was afraid of something like this. Christ I hope the WSJ's report was wrong in many ways. To be honest, I can understand Ukraine's perspective more than the Polish one here. Ukraine's being invaded in the present but the Poles, well they do certainly have a history of getting invaded, but they really should've known better if they actively helped one way or another.
In all likelihood a stupid move nonetheless. Please just let this have been Russia or Belarus or something...
There's rumor level news so I won't cite it, nevermind that I'd have to find it again first, but:
Supposedly, Zelenskyy had consented to at least the planning of the operation. Due to CIA pressure (thank fuck there's a sane ally somewhere!) he called it off, but Zaluzhnyi apparently then did it anyway? Kinda convenient, considering his head already rolled. As for Zelenskyy, I can understand planning and prepping such an Op, just in case German will falters. Honestly, if my country had done a stupid and Ukraine had taken brash action in response, I could accept the necessity, so won't blame them for being prepared.
I could even accept the UAE or similar. That'd make this timeline even more deranged, but deranged in a way I can cope with.
Given how, since Brexit and Trump, this world has been on a rollercoaster(and this decade sure is accelerating part of it christ), I'm wondering whether the Mayans simply missed one leap year cycle. As it sure looks like that instead of 2012, the world ended at 2016.
Yeah, the article from the WSJ also mentions this, and that it was decided(?) at a meeting involving lots of alcohol and the high of just fending of the Russians preventing a quick defeat. With that in mind I can absolutely see the scenario of one guy running of on its own after making jokes about it as well but eh, we'll see when the investigation hopefully(or maybe not so hopefully....) turns up whatever the fuck happened.
Thanks for your insights from your neighbour in the west. We like you guys nowadays, and hopefully this won't tear up some already strained relations on our continent. I prefer the way the continent is over Cold War, the World Wars, or before that.