25 votes

F.B.I. Opened Inquiry Into Whether Trump Was Secretly Working on Behalf of Russia

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14 comments

  1. [3]
    goodbetterbestbested Link
    The FBI opened an investigation on Trump and Russia but the only top-level comment here is blaming that on the Democrats somehow, so I'm fixing that now. It's beyond the pale that for millions of...

    The FBI opened an investigation on Trump and Russia but the only top-level comment here is blaming that on the Democrats somehow, so I'm fixing that now. It's beyond the pale that for millions of people, their immediate kneejerk response to hearing that law enforcement investigated the president for crimes of betrayal to his nation is to blame the opposition party. It's so transparently authoritarian, brainwashed thinking that I can't stand it.

    20 votes
    1. alyaza Link Parent
      piggybacking off this comment, i'd like to give a quick shout out to what might be the NYT's worst aging headline: Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia i'm getting the...

      piggybacking off this comment, i'd like to give a quick shout out to what might be the NYT's worst aging headline: Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia

      i'm getting the sense that this article is going to go down as one of those ignominious "Dewey defeats Truman" type articles

      8 votes
    2. deadaluspark (edited ) Link Parent
      I can't believe the people in this fucking thread. Are really none of you able to say "Wow, both parties will abuse a situation to get ahead." Yes, that does mean some of think that Democrats are...

      their immediate kneejerk response to hearing that law enforcement investigated the president for crimes of betrayal to his nation is to blame the opposition party.

      I can't believe the people in this fucking thread. Are really none of you able to say "Wow, both parties will abuse a situation to get ahead." Yes, that does mean some of think that Democrats are using this crisis as an opportunity to shut down dissenting voices in their own party by screaming "Russia, Russia, Russia!" every time someone trots out a legitimate criticism. That doesn't mean Trump/Russia not a real situation, but it also doesn't mean that people who literally are in politics wouldn't be aiming to politically shield themselves using an ideal situation. What's more fucking ideal than treason from the leader of the opposing party?

      I want you to tell me what his comment said that was "blame" on the Democrats for the current situation

      It read to me like a guy lamenting the fact that, whether the charges against Trump are true or not, there is enough information out there to bolster the ability of Democrats to use his connections with Russia as a deflection to any legitimate criticism under the guise of "I guess you must support Trump/work for Putin," which, as a reminder isn't that far off from Bush's "you're either with us or with the terrorists" because you're implicitly saying anyone who doesn't share your opinion must support Trump or Putin. There is literally someone in this thread doing the very same thing with no evidence to support his assertion.

      I want to say something like "I just want this to be over so neoliberals can't shout Russia every time someone criticizes them.", but I know that they'll be doing it for years to come no matter the outcome of anything.

      That is not blame. That is stating a fact. They will use this situation as a political tool regardless of the level of truth. Yes, that includes them abusing it if it is 100% true. They can and will absolutely scream bloody murder that people disagreeing with them must be Russian plants. That means anyone, including legitimate criticism can get covered up in the process, and motherfucking YES, that is a problem. We don't just give up on giving people a voice because the Democrats want to label everyone who disagrees with them as a Russian plant, which they will have plenty of ammunition to do if they want to. (And for fucks sake, they HAVE.)

      The have successfully repurposed the Red Scare as a means of deflecting all criticism of their policy or blame for their losses.

      Once again, not blame, Stating a fact. Clinton Won. She was the one who ignored the electoral college at her own peril. Or was Putin somehow in control of that, too?

      No one is blaming the Democrats for anything but being unwilling to address things like income inequality, or any of the real issues that underly Trump's abuses of power or how he came to power to begin with. They don't want to discuss them because they profit from the same things, and they don't want to rock the boat. They just want Trump gone, and they want to still be in charge. Yes, they are the better choice, but they are still willing to shut out those who don't follow the "capitalism is nothing but endless good" script. So yeah, maybe those of us whom they want to shut up, who are to the left of them, we get really tired of being accused of being Putin supporters and never getting a word in edgewise because we're "blaming" Democrats by taking the time to critique them.

      Just look at how desperately the Democrats mimic Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in how she handles social media but they don't mimic her politics, which is actually what got people behind her.

      6 votes
  2. Deimos Link
    Well, this thread became extremely antagonistic immediately, and I can't imagine it's going to suddenly get better somehow, so I'm just going to lock it and save everyone the stress. If you feel...

    Well, this thread became extremely antagonistic immediately, and I can't imagine it's going to suddenly get better somehow, so I'm just going to lock it and save everyone the stress. If you feel the need to yell at the opposite team more about politics, I'm sure you can find many other sites to do that on.

    12 votes
  3. [10]
    edward Link
    I want to say something like "I just want this to be over so neoliberals can't shout Russia every time someone criticizes them.", but I know that they'll be doing it for years to come no matter...

    I want to say something like "I just want this to be over so neoliberals can't shout Russia every time someone criticizes them.", but I know that they'll be doing it for years to come no matter the outcome of anything.

    The have successfully repurposed the Red Scare as a means of deflecting all criticism of their policy or blame for their losses.

    3 votes
    1. [4]
      dubteedub Link Parent
      I think it is pretty silly to find someway of turning Trump, his campaign, and his administration colluding with Russians to illegally influence our elections as some kind of indictment on the...

      I think it is pretty silly to find someway of turning Trump, his campaign, and his administration colluding with Russians to illegally influence our elections as some kind of indictment on the Democrats. I mean come on man. This is a serious issue and to deflect this as being the Dems fault is just ignorant.

      The GOP have known Trump and his cohorts were engaging in questionable, if not illegal activity, and they have allowed it to happen without upholding their responsibilities to investigate and hold him accountable. This is an indictment on the state of the Republican party and yes, we absolutely should be shouting that from the fucking rooftops.

      16 votes
      1. pleure Link Parent
        I don't think it's questionable anymore that collision took place nor that the GOP party apparatus is complicit in allowing it to happen, but online there has grown an incredible tendency to blame...

        I don't think it's questionable anymore that collision took place nor that the GOP party apparatus is complicit in allowing it to happen, but online there has grown an incredible tendency to blame literally everything on Russia and it's hurting the Democrats' ability to work as a meaningful opposition. I've been accused multiple times (on reddit, never here fortunately) of being a paid Russian troll for criticizing centrist democrats and their policies. It's becoming a thought-terminating cliche and it's eerily similar to the way people on the alt-right will blame things on the deep state or whatever. For fucks sake, there's basically a messianic cult around Robert Muller, a man who as FBI director lied about Iraq possessing WMDs and helped start that war.

        The fact of the matter is that nothing is going to be done about Trump and any crimes he may have committed until the democrats control the government again, and you don't win elections by shifting all the blame for your previous failure onto some evil external power.

        I'll remind people that Ronald Regan sold weapons to Iran then used the money to fund terrorist death squads in central america. He got away with it an a huge portion of the country loves him to this.

        George Bush started multiple disastrous and illegal conflicts AND had the economy completely collapse on his watch and he's currently being rehabilitated by the mainstream for painting and handing out candy.

        10 votes
      2. Akir Link Parent
        While I don't endorse the view, I can understand it at least. If you think about it, a long, drawn-out investigation with only tiny breadcrumbs coming out sounds exactly like the Hillary Clinton...

        While I don't endorse the view, I can understand it at least. If you think about it, a long, drawn-out investigation with only tiny breadcrumbs coming out sounds exactly like the Hillary Clinton Benghazi investigation. That being said, there are still plenty of reasons to be upset about a DJT presidency outside of his ties with Russia.

        1 vote
      3. edward Link Parent
        But what happens when it's over? Democrats will continue to see Russians in all opposition to them, no matter what the reality is.

        But what happens when it's over? Democrats will continue to see Russians in all opposition to them, no matter what the reality is.

        1 vote
    2. [2]
      nacho Link Parent
      I think it's the other way around: the Democrats have been almost fully consumed by Trump and his personal life. They're no longer getting their policy across. They're not mounting an effective...

      I think it's the other way around: the Democrats have been almost fully consumed by Trump and his personal life.

      They're no longer getting their policy across.

      They're not mounting an effective political platform, they just come off as the Anti-Trumpers.

      They're no longer presenting alternative foreign policy to the Republicans.

      They've appear to be largely reactionary, responding to Republicans at the steering wheel.


      Of course that's what Gingrich and McConnell and their compadres have been trying to engineer to effectively dismantle as much of government as possible through breaking Congress.

      When your goal is small and ineffective government, you break government, then point out it's working poorly to justify building it down, then break it even more.


      I think Trump and the Republicans are the one who're best off with the conversation being all about politicians and not actual politics and policy.

      8 votes
      1. edward Link Parent
        You definitely have a point, but I think it can be both. Democrats use it to deflect criticism from all sides, but that doesn't really end up affecting Republicans that much, and like you said...

        You definitely have a point, but I think it can be both. Democrats use it to deflect criticism from all sides, but that doesn't really end up affecting Republicans that much, and like you said might even be helping them. But it is hurting the left because the left and neolibs are fighting for a similarly minded voting base, whereas Republicans have a completely different base that couldn't care less about Russia as long as the wall gets built.

        3 votes
    3. [3]
      nic Link Parent
      Did you want the five year long Benghazi investigation to just be over? Did you want the investigation into Hillary's emails to just be over? Or are you hypocritically manufacturing outrage over...

      I just want this to be over

      Did you want the five year long Benghazi investigation to just be over?

      Did you want the investigation into Hillary's emails to just be over?

      Or are you hypocritically manufacturing outrage over this instance, because it hurts your guy?

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        edward Link Parent
        Trump is definitely not "my guy". Those were investigations into personal mismanagement, the Russia stuff is about a boogeyman trying to control everything. There's a pretty big difference. I want...

        Trump is definitely not "my guy". Those were investigations into personal mismanagement, the Russia stuff is about a boogeyman trying to control everything. There's a pretty big difference. I want this to be over because I don't want the people calling for actual progress to be dismissed as propped up by Russia.

        Any criticism of neoliberal policy, even from the left, is suddenly a bad thing because "Russia scary".

        2 votes
        1. dubteedub (edited ) Link Parent
          No. You are wrong and it is completely ignorant to say the Russia investigation is a boogeyman. Trumps campaign manager Manafort's lawyer literally just released evidence that he gave American...

          the Russia stuff is about a boogeyman trying to control everything.

          No. You are wrong and it is completely ignorant to say the Russia investigation is a boogeyman.

          Trumps campaign manager Manafort's lawyer literally just released evidence that he gave American polling data to a Russian intelligence official witht he purpsoe kf passing it up to a Putin ally Oligarch.

          Russians are being indicted for influencing our election.

          Maria Butina a Russian spy was indicted and plead guilty to episonage to affect the election.

          Trums campaign had extensive ties to russian officials and russian intel.

          You are lying if you think this shit isnt real.

          I don't want the people calling for actual progress to be dismissed as propped up by Russia.

          What progress?

          Any criticism of neoliberal policy, even from the left, is suddenly a bad thing because "Russia scary".

          Can you provide any actual evidence of this?

          6 votes