11 votes

Brexit: MPs back May's bid to change deal. MPs have backed seeking "alternative arrangements" to replace the Irish backstop in Theresa May's Brexit plan

6 comments

  1. [6]
    Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    So... basically they've voted to restore the "hard" border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - something that most Irish people, north and south of the border, do not want (for good reason!)....

    So... basically they've voted to restore the "hard" border between Ireland and Northern Ireland - something that most Irish people, north and south of the border, do not want (for good reason!).

    How do these MPs think Brexit is going to work without some way of dealing with this issue? There is no magic solution to this. There are only three options:

    • The whole United Kingdom remains in the European Union customs union, which avoids any customs borders within the UK - but requires the UK to follow the EU's rules (which negates the whole point of Brexit).

    • Northern Ireland remains in the EU customs union, which puts a customs border in the Irish Sea. It's not perfect, but it avoids a "hard" border within the island of Ireland.

    • The whole UK, including Northern Ireland, exits the EU customs union, which puts a customs border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    What other options do these people think are going to magically appear? Voting like this doesn't change the reality of the situation. You have three options, people - pick one!

    Actually... there is a fourth option. Northern Ireland could formally secede from the United Kingdom and reunite with the Republic of Ireland. But, if British MPs can't make Brexit work, they certainly couldn't make an Irexit work!

    10 votes
    1. [2]
      nacho
      Link Parent
      This analysis is good. Parliament gave May an impossible task. Both in the way you outline and also in the following way: We don't want a no-deal Brexit. We also don't want the Brexit deal that 28...

      This analysis is good.

      Parliament gave May an impossible task. Both in the way you outline and also in the following way:

      • We don't want a no-deal Brexit.
      • We also don't want the Brexit deal that 28 other countries and us negotiated.
      • We don't want more time to sort out this mess
      • We don't want a new poll so people can tell us they don't want the type of Brexit that's actually possible to get.

      Before these last series of votes, the Brexit mess was clearly at the feet of Government for spending 21 of 24 months in Article 50 without running things by parliament or seeking support outside the Conservative party.

      Yesterday parliament ensured they're just as much to blame moving forward.

      6 votes
      1. Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Oh, yeah. Solving Brexit is impossible in so many ways! I was just focussing on one single issue but, as you point out, the British Parliament is stuffing this up in so many other ways as well....

        Both in the way you outline and also in the following way:

        Oh, yeah. Solving Brexit is impossible in so many ways! I was just focussing on one single issue but, as you point out, the British Parliament is stuffing this up in so many other ways as well.

        The contradiction of Parliament not wanting a no-deal Brexit, but not wanting a deal for Brexit, is the funniest and most tragic part of this whole mess.

        6 votes
    2. [4]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        Greg
        Link Parent
        In short: yes. Things are far from where they once were, but there's a genuine fear that a hard border could reignite serious violence. The least-worst solution there would be a North Sea border,...

        Are the issues of the past still even a thing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?

        In short: yes. Things are far from where they once were, but there's a genuine fear that a hard border could reignite serious violence. The least-worst solution there would be a North Sea border, but that's being blocked as it would "separate Northern Ireland from the UK".

        One of the key players in this whole mess is the DUP - Northern Ireland's largest political party, who are propping up the Tories to give them a parliamentary majority. They're absolutely adamant that nothing can happen that treats Northern Ireland any differently from the rest of the UK.

        It seems to me that if Brexit actually happens, Ireland should just become one again and remain in the EU. Why should they go down with England? Perfect opportunity to reunite.

        I completely agree with you there, but I know there are a significant number of Northern Irish who don't.

        6 votes
        1. [2]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. Greg
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Sadly I can't give you a particularly good read on this one. With Brexit as a whole I feel that I'm exposed to enough different angles to form a reasonable understanding, but for Ireland...

            Sadly I can't give you a particularly good read on this one. With Brexit as a whole I feel that I'm exposed to enough different angles to form a reasonable understanding, but for Ireland specifically I can only really tell you the numbers, not the nuances.

            Even from that, what I can say is that most polls don't place it as a generational divide, nor (surprisingly) even a religious one. Remaining part of the UK consistently wins among all age groups, and for a plurality of Catholics as well as the expected majority of Protestants.

            If I were to guess, the fact that Ireland has had not-insignificant economic problems in the fairly recent past, compared to the UKs relative prosperity since the 80s, could give a more pragmatic reason to maintain the status quo. The fact that the polls are indeed starting to shift when confronted with a particularly destructive Brexit would also back this up.

            On the other hand, a significant proportion of the Northern Irish electorate keeps voting for the DUP, who are quite frankly a bunch of homophobic bigots and religious extremists - so there's almost certainly more to it that I'm missing.

            [Edit] Grammar

      2. Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        It seems to be one of the motives behind most Irish people not wanting a "hard" border between the two countries. They're worried it will raise the ghosts of the past.

        Are the issues of the past still even a thing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?

        It seems to be one of the motives behind most Irish people not wanting a "hard" border between the two countries. They're worried it will raise the ghosts of the past.

        3 votes