FIFA distributes the spots to maximize their global reach. There are several extraneous criteria, which is why it is called "World Cup", not "World Championship". The male cup is the same. The...
Finally, they suggest that the allocation of the number of teams to each confederation be changed to better reflect the actual distribution of top-ranked teams in the world
FIFA distributes the spots to maximize their global reach. There are several extraneous criteria, which is why it is called "World Cup", not "World Championship". The male cup is the same. The World Cup is kinda like the Olympics, everyone wanna see their region represented.
I'm not saying this can't be improved, but a Cup with 40 European countries plus maybe the US (or Brazil in the men's version) would be pretty sad.
I think this is exactly the point. Competitiveness is only one aspect of a successful world cup. Actually, I'd argue that 2023 went rather well in that respect, relative to previous women's world...
I think this is exactly the point. Competitiveness is only one aspect of a successful world cup. Actually, I'd argue that 2023 went rather well in that respect, relative to previous women's world cups. 7-0 was the highest score, and that is not unheard of in the men's tournaments. (Spain 7-0 Costa Rica, 2022; Portugal 7-0 North Korea, 2010; Germany 8-0 Saudi Arabia, 2002).
Much more important for FIFA (rightly) is to grow the game by inviting a diverse yet high quality set of teams, and I think the current qualification format and number of teams does this fairly well.
FIFA should also equalise the prize money for the men and women's world cups (by raising the women's prize to the same level of the men's prize)! They have 4bn Swiss francs in assets, so paying an...
FIFA should also equalise the prize money for the men and women's world cups (by raising the women's prize to the same level of the men's prize)! They have 4bn Swiss francs in assets, so paying an extra 300mn CHF or so is hardly beyond them.
I agree prize money should be equal on an ethical basis. They can afford it, so pay it up. However, from a capitalist standpoint, the prize money should be determined by the revenue, so a...
I agree prize money should be equal on an ethical basis. They can afford it, so pay it up.
However, from a capitalist standpoint, the prize money should be determined by the revenue, so a competition with less revenue would naturally give smaller prizes. I'm not saying the world should follow that logic at all, but unfortunately, it does, and it is surprising that this argument doesn't come out more often.
EDIT: It would be interesting to see a comparison of Women's Cup prize money with a male tournament with a similar size/revenue. I bet there would still be imbalances, making for an even stronger argument...
Iirc this was the first year that they sold the rights to air the Womens World Cup separately from the Men's and with an additional cost rather than a freebie. They weren't bothering to capitalize...
Iirc this was the first year that they sold the rights to air the Womens World Cup separately from the Men's and with an additional cost rather than a freebie. They weren't bothering to capitalize on it. I think this was the first year they had an official song which has been a MWC tradition for years.
The capitalism argument falls down when they fail to market women's sports because their own biased determine it to be worthless.
How many sports do you know in which the men's division is not more lucrative than the others? I know there are some, probably, but how many? Of course, things should be equal, but in my, opinion...
How many sports do you know in which the men's division is not more lucrative than the others?
I know there are some, probably, but how many?
Of course, things should be equal, but in my, opinion it is a mistake to believe this is localized or trivial for any sport to solve.
I wasn't talking about who made more money, my point was that if you aren't even selling your "product" because it features women then the purely capitalist argument falls down. (So does a merit...
I wasn't talking about who made more money, my point was that if you aren't even selling your "product" because it features women then the purely capitalist argument falls down.
(So does a merit argument in individual countries like the US where the men's team was paid significantly more for achieving less due to higher prize pools)
The growth of the women's game in media attention and sponsorship is worth its prize money subsidization. That just one person's opinion. But you acknowledged it should be equal for ethical reasons. It feels a bit devil's advocate to argue that it's wrong but FIFA should keep doing it because money.
They have plenty of money, they can make the change and should. I think it's a mistake to pretend it's more difficult than that. I never claimed it was localized.
Should FIFA pay women the same? Absolutely. It's the same job, and they have the money. Can FIFA single-handedly change football culture worldwide in order to make women's football equally as...
Should FIFA pay women the same? Absolutely. It's the same job, and they have the money.
Can FIFA single-handedly change football culture worldwide in order to make women's football equally as lucrative as men's? No, I don't think so. They can certainly improve, though.
I'm really not defending, but I don't see the point in thinking that FIFA has some kind of magical button to change the habits of billions of fans worldwide in a way that no other global sport managed before.
But no one was talking about FIFA changing everything about women's sports and modern culture. Just about what's in their control. I think we've seen that the fans are there. The interest is...
But no one was talking about FIFA changing everything about women's sports and modern culture. Just about what's in their control.
Fans seem to like women's football. And they actually like it more when it's promoted, shown on TV/streaming consistently, etc. I'm actually arguing that their failure to try to make money on it hurt both their pockets and the success of the sport. I think the fans are there.
I've seen the same in the US, finding the women's jerseys was harder til recently and watching the NWSL involved at least three streaming services including Twitch. It's easier to support them now that they're valued.
Because we were talking about equal pay (and not just better pay) I assumed you also meant equal profits which might support or justify that equal pay. Sorry about that.
Because we were talking about equal pay (and not just better pay) I assumed you also meant equal profits which might support or justify that equal pay. Sorry about that.
I was referencing the prize pools like the OP. But no, I don't think equal profits are necessary..Especially when they've been artificially devalued. I'm not pro-capitalism particularly, but I...
I was referencing the prize pools like the OP. But no, I don't think equal profits are necessary..Especially when they've been artificially devalued.
I'm not pro-capitalism particularly, but I find often that people assume rational actors without bias just because money's involved. When in fact we see a ton of bias and losses due to that bias. (See also people that claim that if civil rights laws were invalidated business owners wouldn't discriminate. We know they will. Even if it costs them money. Because people aren't logic bots. )
Anyway I'm just saying that FIFA can't complain about poor performance with poor investment. And even if they did, they should still invest from a moral standpoint.
Weren't there also issues this year with FIFA having to ensure prize money went to the women's teams/women's system so that the countries wouldn't just toss it into the men's soccer pot?
Weren't there also issues this year with FIFA having to ensure prize money went to the women's teams/women's system so that the countries wouldn't just toss it into the men's soccer pot?
FIFA distributes the spots to maximize their global reach. There are several extraneous criteria, which is why it is called "World Cup", not "World Championship". The male cup is the same. The World Cup is kinda like the Olympics, everyone wanna see their region represented.
I'm not saying this can't be improved, but a Cup with 40 European countries plus maybe the US (or Brazil in the men's version) would be pretty sad.
I think this is exactly the point. Competitiveness is only one aspect of a successful world cup. Actually, I'd argue that 2023 went rather well in that respect, relative to previous women's world cups. 7-0 was the highest score, and that is not unheard of in the men's tournaments. (Spain 7-0 Costa Rica, 2022; Portugal 7-0 North Korea, 2010; Germany 8-0 Saudi Arabia, 2002).
Much more important for FIFA (rightly) is to grow the game by inviting a diverse yet high quality set of teams, and I think the current qualification format and number of teams does this fairly well.
Yeah I thought 2023 was successful with the larger field and growing further will require countries to continue to grow programs
FIFA should also equalise the prize money for the men and women's world cups (by raising the women's prize to the same level of the men's prize)! They have 4bn Swiss francs in assets, so paying an extra 300mn CHF or so is hardly beyond them.
See https://www.bloomberglinea.com/english/how-much-prize-money-is-up-for-grabs-at-the-womens-fifa-world-cup-2023/ for details of the prize pool.
I agree prize money should be equal on an ethical basis. They can afford it, so pay it up.
However, from a capitalist standpoint, the prize money should be determined by the revenue, so a competition with less revenue would naturally give smaller prizes. I'm not saying the world should follow that logic at all, but unfortunately, it does, and it is surprising that this argument doesn't come out more often.
EDIT: It would be interesting to see a comparison of Women's Cup prize money with a male tournament with a similar size/revenue. I bet there would still be imbalances, making for an even stronger argument...
Iirc this was the first year that they sold the rights to air the Womens World Cup separately from the Men's and with an additional cost rather than a freebie. They weren't bothering to capitalize on it. I think this was the first year they had an official song which has been a MWC tradition for years.
The capitalism argument falls down when they fail to market women's sports because their own biased determine it to be worthless.
How many sports do you know in which the men's division is not more lucrative than the others?
I know there are some, probably, but how many?
Of course, things should be equal, but in my, opinion it is a mistake to believe this is localized or trivial for any sport to solve.
I wasn't talking about who made more money, my point was that if you aren't even selling your "product" because it features women then the purely capitalist argument falls down.
(So does a merit argument in individual countries like the US where the men's team was paid significantly more for achieving less due to higher prize pools)
The growth of the women's game in media attention and sponsorship is worth its prize money subsidization. That just one person's opinion. But you acknowledged it should be equal for ethical reasons. It feels a bit devil's advocate to argue that it's wrong but FIFA should keep doing it because money.
They have plenty of money, they can make the change and should. I think it's a mistake to pretend it's more difficult than that. I never claimed it was localized.
Should FIFA pay women the same? Absolutely. It's the same job, and they have the money.
Can FIFA single-handedly change football culture worldwide in order to make women's football equally as lucrative as men's? No, I don't think so. They can certainly improve, though.
I'm really not defending, but I don't see the point in thinking that FIFA has some kind of magical button to change the habits of billions of fans worldwide in a way that no other global sport managed before.
But no one was talking about FIFA changing everything about women's sports and modern culture. Just about what's in their control.
I think we've seen that the fans are there. The interest is there. And when they stop acting like the WWC is an included side dish to the MWC's entrée, it gets attention. I use the example of a song because it's such a small iconic thing that FIFA had never bothered to commission for the WWC til this year.
Fans seem to like women's football. And they actually like it more when it's promoted, shown on TV/streaming consistently, etc. I'm actually arguing that their failure to try to make money on it hurt both their pockets and the success of the sport. I think the fans are there.
I've seen the same in the US, finding the women's jerseys was harder til recently and watching the NWSL involved at least three streaming services including Twitch. It's easier to support them now that they're valued.
Because we were talking about equal pay (and not just better pay) I assumed you also meant equal profits which might support or justify that equal pay. Sorry about that.
I was referencing the prize pools like the OP. But no, I don't think equal profits are necessary..Especially when they've been artificially devalued.
I'm not pro-capitalism particularly, but I find often that people assume rational actors without bias just because money's involved. When in fact we see a ton of bias and losses due to that bias. (See also people that claim that if civil rights laws were invalidated business owners wouldn't discriminate. We know they will. Even if it costs them money. Because people aren't logic bots. )
Anyway I'm just saying that FIFA can't complain about poor performance with poor investment. And even if they did, they should still invest from a moral standpoint.
Yes, that is essentially what I tried to convey as well. Seems that we got into a little misunderstanding here ;)
Weren't there also issues this year with FIFA having to ensure prize money went to the women's teams/women's system so that the countries wouldn't just toss it into the men's soccer pot?