Yeah, I'm of multiple minds of this. I feel like people shouldn't be forced to wear a particular garment, but they also shouldn't be prohibited from wearing it should they choose to. Clearly...
Yeah, I'm of multiple minds of this. I feel like people shouldn't be forced to wear a particular garment, but they also shouldn't be prohibited from wearing it should they choose to.
“My choice as a woman and a citizen will be to no longer trust a brand that breaks with our values,” said Aurore Bergé, a spokeswoman for Republic on the Move, President Emmanuel Macron’s party. “Those who tolerate women in the public space only when they are hiding are not lovers of freedom.”
Clearly presumes that these women are being forced to wear such things.
I suppose on a deeper level, do we really choose the community mores we inherit?
A lot of women are forced to wear them. This website (Turkish) belongs to a movement / NGO called Yalnız Yürümeyeceksin (You will never Walk Alone), that helps women cope with the consequences of...
Exemplary
A lot of women are forced to wear them. This website (Turkish) belongs to a movement / NGO called Yalnız Yürümeyeceksin (You will never Walk Alone), that helps women cope with the consequences of stopping wearing the veil (which include but is not limited to pressure and/or violence, domestic and/or societal; ranging from being told off, to being disowned, to being killed; depending on the social/familiar context of the person), and includes personal (and at times anonymous) stories of these women.
This is quite closely related to the question of tollerating the intollerant: hijab is not a garment, or a fashion; it is the wearable icon of a belief system that is deeply at odds with any sort of democratic, individualist, feminist, progressive ideals. I tell you that as an ex muslim living in a primarily muslim community. Islamic prescriptions of female clothing is completely based on the (repression of) sexual desires of men, and the scriptures are quite honest about that.
I don't know what to say about this particular incident, I don't think any producer can be forced to produce items that pertain to an ideology they do not accept. Even if we want to enforce the freedom to religion no matter what. The muslim community can produce their ideologically loaded garments and other material. Everybody should have the right to wear whatever they desire, except security precautions (in which case we come to the burqa/niqab question).
I'm confused, isn't the french company choosing to produce the garment, because they see a market? So what force is there, then? I certainly view this issue from a position in a country where...
I'm confused, isn't the french company choosing to produce the garment, because they see a market? So what force is there, then?
I certainly view this issue from a position in a country where Islam is very much a minority religion, which certainly colors my view of it. I'm sure if I lived somewhere in which the wearing of it were compulsory I would have a very different opinion.
I'm sorry if I missed some context, I only read the title and incipit of the article (where it says the company dropped the plan, but obviously there is quite a bit more to that); my comment was...
I'm sorry if I missed some context, I only read the title and incipit of the article (where it says the company dropped the plan, but obviously there is quite a bit more to that); my comment was more about giving some context as an "insider" witness.
The way to find out if a woman is being forced to wear a hijab is to ask her what will happen if she doesn't wear it - or, better yet, see what actually happens if she doesn't wear it for a while....
Clearly presumes that these women are being forced to wear such things.
The way to find out if a woman is being forced to wear a hijab is to ask her what will happen if she doesn't wear it - or, better yet, see what actually happens if she doesn't wear it for a while. If her male relatives and associates start persuading her to put it on, or they abuse or disown her for taking it off... is it really a choice?
A lot of women have internalised the external societal pressures that require them to wear a hijab, to the point where they sincerely believe it is their own choice. The test is to find out what happens if they take it off.
Noone used the word "fool" except you. That's a bit of a leap, and takes this argument further than intended. We are all brainwashed - every single one of us. You. Me. Your acquaintances....
I'll just go tell all my American acquaintances who do wear the Hijab they're brainwashed fools then.
Noone used the word "fool" except you. That's a bit of a leap, and takes this argument further than intended.
We are all brainwashed - every single one of us. You. Me. Your acquaintances. Everyone. We are indoctrinated from the moment we are born with the social mores of the culture we are raised in. Every decision we make is influenced by the culture we've absorbed our whole lives.
When I make the totally free choice to wear trousers, that totally free choice is influenced by everything I've been taught since before I could think - starting with "dresses are for little girls, not little boys" and progressing all the way through to a nuanced investigation of the cultural consequences of me deciding to wear a dress. To somehow pretend that I'm not a product of a life of indoctrination (or brainwashing) when I freely choose to wear trousers today, and not a skirt, would be ridiculous.
Objectively, why is the Hijab a symbol of oppression more so than high heels or skirts?
It's not. Ask most western women if they enjoy wearing high heels and want to wear them, and the majority will say they're uncomfortable - but they make them look good. They've been conditioned since childhood to associate high heels with looking good. There is more freedom now, and more women are choosing to wear flats, but there's still that underlying assumption that women look better in high heels, and women who want to look attractive should wear them.
Oh, I thought the crux of the issue is that these women who wear hijabs are supposedly choosing to wear them. That's the point I've been debating. No wonder we haven't been making much headway. I...
You're correct, but nobody's trying to ban high heels, which is the crux of the issue here.
Oh, I thought the crux of the issue is that these women who wear hijabs are supposedly choosing to wear them. That's the point I've been debating. No wonder we haven't been making much headway.
I think it's silly to ban a headscarf. A full-face covering is a different matter, because our face is our identity and our personality. But a headscarf? No.
If that is infantilising, then it is rightfully so. Those who get to have a choice in this is a tiny tiny minority of those who wear hijab. It is mind-blowingly idiotic to defend that hijab has...
If that is infantilising, then it is rightfully so. Those who get to have a choice in this is a tiny tiny minority of those who wear hijab. It is mind-blowingly idiotic to defend that hijab has anything at all to do with freedom. And it is deeply hypocritical and malicious to link the most obvious tool of female enslavement and reduction of women into property to any sort of feminist self realisation.
In almost all the cases the veil is forced on to you the day your parents (mom, often) learns that you start menstruating (and you've become a "woman", you can't go out and play outside, not even with other girls, you'll only be able to wait for being married to someone, rotting as a kid, isolated from the rest of the society). Hijab does not mean you just put some veil on. You will also have to accept a whole load of patriarchal moral and norms, which will be forced upon you.
Male, and female relatives and peers who do wear hijab. Patriarchy is masculine (not male), but it is embodied by people of both sexes, almost equally so in more ignorant / conservative parts of a...
If her male relatives and associates start persuading her to put it on, or they abuse or disown her for taking it off...
Male, and female relatives and peers who do wear hijab. Patriarchy is masculine (not male), but it is embodied by people of both sexes, almost equally so in more ignorant / conservative parts of a society.
Yeah, I'm of multiple minds of this. I feel like people shouldn't be forced to wear a particular garment, but they also shouldn't be prohibited from wearing it should they choose to.
Clearly presumes that these women are being forced to wear such things.
I suppose on a deeper level, do we really choose the community mores we inherit?
A lot of women are forced to wear them. This website (Turkish) belongs to a movement / NGO called Yalnız Yürümeyeceksin (You will never Walk Alone), that helps women cope with the consequences of stopping wearing the veil (which include but is not limited to pressure and/or violence, domestic and/or societal; ranging from being told off, to being disowned, to being killed; depending on the social/familiar context of the person), and includes personal (and at times anonymous) stories of these women.
This is quite closely related to the question of tollerating the intollerant: hijab is not a garment, or a fashion; it is the wearable icon of a belief system that is deeply at odds with any sort of democratic, individualist, feminist, progressive ideals. I tell you that as an ex muslim living in a primarily muslim community. Islamic prescriptions of female clothing is completely based on the (repression of) sexual desires of men, and the scriptures are quite honest about that.
I don't know what to say about this particular incident, I don't think any producer can be forced to produce items that pertain to an ideology they do not accept. Even if we want to enforce the freedom to religion no matter what. The muslim community can produce their ideologically loaded garments and other material. Everybody should have the right to wear whatever they desire, except security precautions (in which case we come to the burqa/niqab question).
I'm confused, isn't the french company choosing to produce the garment, because they see a market? So what force is there, then?
I certainly view this issue from a position in a country where Islam is very much a minority religion, which certainly colors my view of it. I'm sure if I lived somewhere in which the wearing of it were compulsory I would have a very different opinion.
I'm sorry if I missed some context, I only read the title and incipit of the article (where it says the company dropped the plan, but obviously there is quite a bit more to that); my comment was more about giving some context as an "insider" witness.
The way to find out if a woman is being forced to wear a hijab is to ask her what will happen if she doesn't wear it - or, better yet, see what actually happens if she doesn't wear it for a while. If her male relatives and associates start persuading her to put it on, or they abuse or disown her for taking it off... is it really a choice?
A lot of women have internalised the external societal pressures that require them to wear a hijab, to the point where they sincerely believe it is their own choice. The test is to find out what happens if they take it off.
Noone used the word "fool" except you. That's a bit of a leap, and takes this argument further than intended.
We are all brainwashed - every single one of us. You. Me. Your acquaintances. Everyone. We are indoctrinated from the moment we are born with the social mores of the culture we are raised in. Every decision we make is influenced by the culture we've absorbed our whole lives.
When I make the totally free choice to wear trousers, that totally free choice is influenced by everything I've been taught since before I could think - starting with "dresses are for little girls, not little boys" and progressing all the way through to a nuanced investigation of the cultural consequences of me deciding to wear a dress. To somehow pretend that I'm not a product of a life of indoctrination (or brainwashing) when I freely choose to wear trousers today, and not a skirt, would be ridiculous.
It's not. Ask most western women if they enjoy wearing high heels and want to wear them, and the majority will say they're uncomfortable - but they make them look good. They've been conditioned since childhood to associate high heels with looking good. There is more freedom now, and more women are choosing to wear flats, but there's still that underlying assumption that women look better in high heels, and women who want to look attractive should wear them.
Oh, I thought the crux of the issue is that these women who wear hijabs are supposedly choosing to wear them. That's the point I've been debating. No wonder we haven't been making much headway.
I think it's silly to ban a headscarf. A full-face covering is a different matter, because our face is our identity and our personality. But a headscarf? No.
If that is infantilising, then it is rightfully so. Those who get to have a choice in this is a tiny tiny minority of those who wear hijab. It is mind-blowingly idiotic to defend that hijab has anything at all to do with freedom. And it is deeply hypocritical and malicious to link the most obvious tool of female enslavement and reduction of women into property to any sort of feminist self realisation.
In almost all the cases the veil is forced on to you the day your parents (mom, often) learns that you start menstruating (and you've become a "woman", you can't go out and play outside, not even with other girls, you'll only be able to wait for being married to someone, rotting as a kid, isolated from the rest of the society). Hijab does not mean you just put some veil on. You will also have to accept a whole load of patriarchal moral and norms, which will be forced upon you.
Male, and female relatives and peers who do wear hijab. Patriarchy is masculine (not male), but it is embodied by people of both sexes, almost equally so in more ignorant / conservative parts of a society.
Good point. Thanks.
And you'd be right. A lot of our so-called choices are just indoctrinated responses to social mores.
I just want to link a video on the topic.