Linux is critical software. I'm all for allowing people to fail until they learn to do better, but that should happen in spaces where it's safe to do so, like say in an internship program. IDK if...
Linux is critical software.
I'm all for allowing people to fail until they learn to do better, but that should happen in spaces where it's safe to do so, like say in an internship program. IDK if Linux has sth. similar, say like mentorship for new contributors, but that's where people can try and fail, especially when dealing with critical software, or anything else that's this important.
The said manifesto wants to do away with merit because with it the "privileged" has advantage over others. That may be the case, but then the correct approach is to educate those others and make sure that they have the same chances as the "privileged" to learn, improve and eventually merit the said positions.
Then the solution is to (re)define "merit", and hopefully define it to include humane decency too. The manifesto openly says that they "believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important...
Then the solution is to (re)define "merit", and hopefully define it to include humane decency too. The manifesto openly says that they "believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills", that "at least" is too much, and unacceptable.
I also don't think "merit" is not clearly defined. But that's another discussion.
Thanks! What does that have to do with under-representation of minorities, though? Does "brilliant jerk" implicitly mean "brilliant bigot"? (Sorry if this is clear in the content you linked, I'll...
Thanks! What does that have to do with under-representation of minorities, though? Does "brilliant jerk" implicitly mean "brilliant bigot"? (Sorry if this is clear in the content you linked, I'll try to read through it ASAP).
Why is her signing it (two months ago, even) significant? She's 21 years old and in college, does she have some sort of influential position related to Linux or any other open-source project? Is...
Why is her signing it (two months ago, even) significant? She's 21 years old and in college, does she have some sort of influential position related to Linux or any other open-source project? Is there any indication that her signing it has any effect on Linux or Linus and isn't simply her own action as a female Computer Science student who happens to have a famous father?
Hell, is it even confirmed that it was actually her that signed it and not just someone that typed her name in on the Google Form?
Post-meritocracy, post-truth, wow. The up-coming world is post-good. I guess I move to OpenBSD before too long. Not impeding people for not being the "ideal human" of the olden times is one thing,...
Post-meritocracy, post-truth, wow. The up-coming world is post-good. I guess I move to OpenBSD before too long.
Not impeding people for not being the "ideal human" of the olden times is one thing, using "diversity" as a trampoline for the technically-inadequate is another.
It's not diversity when we force-push some people we deem "different" into some positions. Before anything, that's a dismissal of their intellectuality and by extension humanity, given they become an "object" "used" as a tool to create "diversity". Then, this reduces the credibility of these "different" persons, because other people will, naturally, doubt the technical skill of a person of some category X when they have already seen persons of the same category acquire undeserved positions through diversity programs. This is a big disservice to feminism, a big disservice to any movement that champions gender equality, and any idea that suggest that we transcend things like gender, sex, nationality, ethnicity, "race", religion, etc.
Hope we get past this... thing, before it's too late.
One thing I don’t understand is why people are treating meritocracy like it’s the problem. Paraphrasing but I understand their argument as, “meritocracy entrenches privilege associated with...
One thing I don’t understand is why people are treating meritocracy like it’s the problem. Paraphrasing but I understand their argument as, “meritocracy entrenches privilege associated with privileged groups because they have more access to education”, and I agree that it does that. But why fight against meritocracy and asking companies to play some cost benefit analysis of “how much merit does this person have vs how many diversity credits do we get for hiring them”, why not fight for rights to equal education? It seems like a much better use of effort imo.
The Linux kernel is not a government. In my opinion this statement only holds weight when the same body of meritocracy is also the one in control of education. Were the US government a meritocracy...
meritocracy entrenches privilege associated with privileged groups because they have more access to education
The Linux kernel is not a government. In my opinion this statement only holds weight when the same body of meritocracy is also the one in control of education. Were the US government a meritocracy it could be an injustice since those in power are better educated and they decide who gets that superior education.
It seems inappropriate to even bring up his daughter, as if implying she is at "fault" for Linus' recent change of heart. This strikes me as just another battlefield for the ever-unproductive...
It seems inappropriate to even bring up his daughter, as if implying she is at "fault" for Linus' recent change of heart. This strikes me as just another battlefield for the ever-unproductive "SJW/anti-SJW" drama people.
The debate of meritocracy might be more interesting if people weren't talking past each other, and could agree on some common language.
This is the first post on Tildes I'd downvote if I could.
I think people are discussing the manifesto and the issues around it here, not Linus' daughter. It'd be better if the manifesto itself was linked directly, though. Personally I don't care much...
I think people are discussing the manifesto and the issues around it here, not Linus' daughter. It'd be better if the manifesto itself was linked directly, though. Personally I don't care much about the linked stuff as long as it generates good discussion here.
I won't comment too much on this. I have just seen it, and I would like to put this information here for people to see it and discuss the direction in which the Linux community is going.
Meritocracy is a founding principle of the open source movement, and the ideal of meritocracy is perpetuated throughout our field in the way people are recruited, hired, retained, promoted, and valued.
But meritocracy has consistently shown itself to mainly benefit those with privilege, to the exclusion of underrepresented people in technology. The idea of merit is in fact never clearly defined; rather, it seems to be a form of recognition, an acknowledgement that “this person is valuable insofar as they are like me.”
They also believe that,
Interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills [...] We acknowledge the value of non-technical contributors as equal to the value of technical contributors.
I think you get the idea. Well, if you scroll down, you will see that one of the signers of this manifesto is Patricia Torvalds, Linus Torvalds' daughter.
I think this applies well to attracting and maintaining a talented and diverse mix of contributors: Safe spaces are important. I have seen the misogynistic and racist comments made in some open source communities, and subsequent dismissals when people point out the issues. I think that in maintaining a professional community there have to be strong standards on what constitutes harassment or inappropriate conduct.
These are her takes on meritocracy:
I also think that some community leaders just don't value diversity. It's really easy to argue that tech is a meritocracy, and the reason there are so few marginalized people in tech is just that they aren't interested, and that the problem comes from earlier on in the pipeline. They argue that if someone is good enough at their job, their gender or race or sexual orientation doesn't matter. That's the easy argument. But I was raised not to make excuses for mistakes. And I think the lack of diversity is a mistake, and that we should be taking responsibility for it and actively trying to make it better.
I think that the direction in which Linux -and possibly Linus- is heading is really clear: "Diversity" is more important than merit. And it's worrying, to say the least.
Linux is critical software.
I'm all for allowing people to fail until they learn to do better, but that should happen in spaces where it's safe to do so, like say in an internship program. IDK if Linux has sth. similar, say like mentorship for new contributors, but that's where people can try and fail, especially when dealing with critical software, or anything else that's this important.
The said manifesto wants to do away with merit because with it the "privileged" has advantage over others. That may be the case, but then the correct approach is to educate those others and make sure that they have the same chances as the "privileged" to learn, improve and eventually merit the said positions.
Then the solution is to (re)define "merit", and hopefully define it to include humane decency too. The manifesto openly says that they "believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills", that "at least" is too much, and unacceptable.
I also don't think "merit" is not clearly defined. But that's another discussion.
Can you or anyone else explain what the proposed change actually is?
Thanks! What does that have to do with under-representation of minorities, though? Does "brilliant jerk" implicitly mean "brilliant bigot"? (Sorry if this is clear in the content you linked, I'll try to read through it ASAP).
Why is her signing it (two months ago, even) significant? She's 21 years old and in college, does she have some sort of influential position related to Linux or any other open-source project? Is there any indication that her signing it has any effect on Linux or Linus and isn't simply her own action as a female Computer Science student who happens to have a famous father?
Hell, is it even confirmed that it was actually her that signed it and not just someone that typed her name in on the Google Form?
It’s mostly her relationship to Linus, though I’m not to well versed in the topic
Post-meritocracy, post-truth, wow. The up-coming world is post-good. I guess I move to OpenBSD before too long.
Not impeding people for not being the "ideal human" of the olden times is one thing, using "diversity" as a trampoline for the technically-inadequate is another.
It's not diversity when we force-push some people we deem "different" into some positions. Before anything, that's a dismissal of their intellectuality and by extension humanity, given they become an "object" "used" as a tool to create "diversity". Then, this reduces the credibility of these "different" persons, because other people will, naturally, doubt the technical skill of a person of some category X when they have already seen persons of the same category acquire undeserved positions through diversity programs. This is a big disservice to feminism, a big disservice to any movement that champions gender equality, and any idea that suggest that we transcend things like gender, sex, nationality, ethnicity, "race", religion, etc.
Hope we get past this... thing, before it's too late.
One thing I don’t understand is why people are treating meritocracy like it’s the problem. Paraphrasing but I understand their argument as, “meritocracy entrenches privilege associated with privileged groups because they have more access to education”, and I agree that it does that. But why fight against meritocracy and asking companies to play some cost benefit analysis of “how much merit does this person have vs how many diversity credits do we get for hiring them”, why not fight for rights to equal education? It seems like a much better use of effort imo.
The Linux kernel is not a government. In my opinion this statement only holds weight when the same body of meritocracy is also the one in control of education. Were the US government a meritocracy it could be an injustice since those in power are better educated and they decide who gets that superior education.
It seems inappropriate to even bring up his daughter, as if implying she is at "fault" for Linus' recent change of heart. This strikes me as just another battlefield for the ever-unproductive "SJW/anti-SJW" drama people.
The debate of meritocracy might be more interesting if people weren't talking past each other, and could agree on some common language.
This is the first post on Tildes I'd downvote if I could.
I'm heavily debating removing it, because as far as I can tell it's just outrage about something that's completely unsubstantiated and meaningless.
I think people are discussing the manifesto and the issues around it here, not Linus' daughter. It'd be better if the manifesto itself was linked directly, though. Personally I don't care much about the linked stuff as long as it generates good discussion here.
Copied from reddit to spare those on mobile: