The MTA is moving ahead with construction on a new pilot program that is aimed to make the subways much safer.
This plan is all part of a $100 million project to install sliding screen doors in as many as three subway stations.
These barrier doors will be similar to the ones used on the JFK AirTrain, where they open and close only when the train is in the station.
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There are 472 stations in the New York City Transit System, but just 128 where platform doors are feasible. On top of that, the cost is estimated at a whopping $6.5 to 7 billion dollars. That total is more than the cost to build the existed Second Avenue Subway.
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The three stations that will be outfitted with these gates include the 7 train at Times Square as well as the L train at 3rd Avenue and the E train at Sutphin Boulevard/Archer Avenue in Queens.
How does this work with human drivers? Systems that I've seen that have this feature, like JFK AirTrain and the Atlanta airport "Plane Train" are driverless/automated, with sensors that are...
How does this work with human drivers? Systems that I've seen that have this feature, like JFK AirTrain and the Atlanta airport "Plane Train" are driverless/automated, with sensors that are accurate enough for the train to align exactly with the platform doors. I'm curious if human drivers would be able to obtain the same degree of accuracy with manual braking and such?
The three trial stations are on the 7, L and E lines. The 7 and L are already automated (even though there's still a human engineer sitting in the driver's seat) and I think the E is supposed to...
The three trial stations are on the 7, L and E lines. The 7 and L are already automated (even though there's still a human engineer sitting in the driver's seat) and I think the E is supposed to be soon. So we might not get an answer to your question with this trial.
Ahhh cool, maybe that is the answer - automation required. Tokyo's subway has platform gates too, but automated trains with a driver in the seat. And they're pretty much the gold standard for...
Ahhh cool, maybe that is the answer - automation required. Tokyo's subway has platform gates too, but automated trains with a driver in the seat. And they're pretty much the gold standard for being on time.
The specifics are a little too technical for me. Platform screen doors are often implemented in automated systems because it makes sense to sync them up. But strictly speaking, a station with PSDs...
The specifics are a little too technical for me. Platform screen doors are often implemented in automated systems because it makes sense to sync them up. But strictly speaking, a station with PSDs doesn't need to have an automated train on it. The doors can be automated based on whether the train is in the station, or they can be opened manually by an operator. I don't see a reason why the operator can't inch the train forward or back if they slightly miss the doors while braking (they already do this when they overshoot and one of the doors misses the platform).
Makes sense, but without automation here, it will likely cause some delays. If a door misses the platform, they missed their target by 10'+. With stationary screen doors, they'd likely have to be...
Makes sense, but without automation here, it will likely cause some delays. If a door misses the platform, they missed their target by 10'+. With stationary screen doors, they'd likely have to be within a foot of thr target, or spend 20 seconds adjusting every time.
Within a foot doesn't seem like an unattainable target for a human driver. At least in my experience on the DC Metro system, they're pretty consistent. There are markers on the driver's end of the...
Within a foot doesn't seem like an unattainable target for a human driver. At least in my experience on the DC Metro system, they're pretty consistent. There are markers on the driver's end of the platform that makes it easy to line up within inches of the same spot every time. And if you do it all day every day you get good at it quick.
Just driving accurately. There are doors like this on the Jubilee line and Elizabeth Line in London, which still use human drivers and they always manage to line up accurately, when I'm in London....
Just driving accurately. There are doors like this on the Jubilee line and Elizabeth Line in London, which still use human drivers and they always manage to line up accurately, when I'm in London.
Amazing. I just moved to NYC and one of the first tips from my partner who dormed here for college was to keep away from those edges (duh, though). The stories I've heard are crazy, of both people...
Amazing. I just moved to NYC and one of the first tips from my partner who dormed here for college was to keep away from those edges (duh, though). The stories I've heard are crazy, of both people jumping and recently a person getting pushed. I'm a big urbanist fan and love to see public transit done right, and so the lack of these barriers has stood out to me. Hopefully this rolls out to all stations.
This is critical safety infrastructure being installed to solve dangerous platform issues on unique subway platforms that has to be custom fabricated and installed without impacting service. It...
This is critical safety infrastructure being installed to solve dangerous platform issues on unique subway platforms that has to be custom fabricated and installed without impacting service. It would not be a reasonable cost if this was being designed from the ground up and there were economies of scale. But this is basically custom '30+ years of life' safety systems that are (nearly) impervious to angry drunk people/ragingly mad crazy people. Would you prefer a scenario where this thing is undercosted and some folks die and then the public cost is paid through payouts to victims and families? Or do we just pay a thoughtful amount upfront to avoid systematic issues. Ultimately, asserting grift/inefficiency being responsible for this doesn't really capture the underlying issues.
A bit expensive. It's structurally challenging to install the platform screen doors because they add a lot of weight to the platforms. The engineers need to ensure the platforms can support the...
A bit expensive. It's structurally challenging to install the platform screen doors because they add a lot of weight to the platforms. The engineers need to ensure the platforms can support the load. It also takes a certain amount of equipment and software to automate the doors in a way that is connected to the arrival of the train and the opening of its internal doors. Since this hasn't been done before in NYC, and since the stations are mostly pretty old, I see why it takes a lot of money to implement.
As an oregonian I was a bit taken aback after rossman explained the tragic state of new Yorks subway infrastructure. Someone is getting paid, and it seems the residents of new York are getting...
As an oregonian I was a bit taken aback after rossman explained the tragic state of new Yorks subway infrastructure. Someone is getting paid, and it seems the residents of new York are getting hosed.
Tossing an edit in here. I'm completely out of my depth, and hope no one thinks I know anything about the complex system that is the new York subway system.
If you mean the graffiti, there's a lot of it in the Athens subway. I got some major nostalgic vibes when I saw that first tagged up train pull up at the airport.
If you mean the graffiti, there's a lot of it in the Athens subway. I got some major nostalgic vibes when I saw that first tagged up train pull up at the airport.
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How does this work with human drivers? Systems that I've seen that have this feature, like JFK AirTrain and the Atlanta airport "Plane Train" are driverless/automated, with sensors that are accurate enough for the train to align exactly with the platform doors. I'm curious if human drivers would be able to obtain the same degree of accuracy with manual braking and such?
The three trial stations are on the 7, L and E lines. The 7 and L are already automated (even though there's still a human engineer sitting in the driver's seat) and I think the E is supposed to be soon. So we might not get an answer to your question with this trial.
Ahhh cool, maybe that is the answer - automation required. Tokyo's subway has platform gates too, but automated trains with a driver in the seat. And they're pretty much the gold standard for being on time.
The specifics are a little too technical for me. Platform screen doors are often implemented in automated systems because it makes sense to sync them up. But strictly speaking, a station with PSDs doesn't need to have an automated train on it. The doors can be automated based on whether the train is in the station, or they can be opened manually by an operator. I don't see a reason why the operator can't inch the train forward or back if they slightly miss the doors while braking (they already do this when they overshoot and one of the doors misses the platform).
Makes sense, but without automation here, it will likely cause some delays. If a door misses the platform, they missed their target by 10'+. With stationary screen doors, they'd likely have to be within a foot of thr target, or spend 20 seconds adjusting every time.
Within a foot doesn't seem like an unattainable target for a human driver. At least in my experience on the DC Metro system, they're pretty consistent. There are markers on the driver's end of the platform that makes it easy to line up within inches of the same spot every time. And if you do it all day every day you get good at it quick.
Just driving accurately. There are doors like this on the Jubilee line and Elizabeth Line in London, which still use human drivers and they always manage to line up accurately, when I'm in London.
The only source I can find is (unfortunately) a news article citing a tiktok but it does include a picture of the driver reference. https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/london-underground-driver-explains-how-24171444 but basically the answer is yes a human driver is able to obtain the desired degree of accuracy.
Interesting! I'm kinda impressed that it can be done. Thanks for the info!
Amazing. I just moved to NYC and one of the first tips from my partner who dormed here for college was to keep away from those edges (duh, though). The stories I've heard are crazy, of both people jumping and recently a person getting pushed. I'm a big urbanist fan and love to see public transit done right, and so the lack of these barriers has stood out to me. Hopefully this rolls out to all stations.
This is critical safety infrastructure being installed to solve dangerous platform issues on unique subway platforms that has to be custom fabricated and installed without impacting service. It would not be a reasonable cost if this was being designed from the ground up and there were economies of scale. But this is basically custom '30+ years of life' safety systems that are (nearly) impervious to angry drunk people/ragingly mad crazy people. Would you prefer a scenario where this thing is undercosted and some folks die and then the public cost is paid through payouts to victims and families? Or do we just pay a thoughtful amount upfront to avoid systematic issues. Ultimately, asserting grift/inefficiency being responsible for this doesn't really capture the underlying issues.
A bit expensive. It's structurally challenging to install the platform screen doors because they add a lot of weight to the platforms. The engineers need to ensure the platforms can support the load. It also takes a certain amount of equipment and software to automate the doors in a way that is connected to the arrival of the train and the opening of its internal doors. Since this hasn't been done before in NYC, and since the stations are mostly pretty old, I see why it takes a lot of money to implement.
As an oregonian I was a bit taken aback after rossman explained the tragic state of new Yorks subway infrastructure. Someone is getting paid, and it seems the residents of new York are getting hosed.
Tossing an edit in here. I'm completely out of my depth, and hope no one thinks I know anything about the complex system that is the new York subway system.
Is there anywhere in the world that still has a subway like NY's in the 80s? I'd want to live there.
If you mean the graffiti, there's a lot of it in the Athens subway. I got some major nostalgic vibes when I saw that first tagged up train pull up at the airport.
Looks awesome, but is it filled with trash and easy to get on without paying?