26 votes

The West vs Asia: what drivers are taught about motorcycle brakes

I've studied for motorcycle driving licenses in both my home country in Europe, and my work country in Asia. Something that really stood out to me was what each country said about braking. This wasn't just advice or anecdotes, it appeared on each formal theory test.

Europe: Front brakes are the strongest, they are your go-to in an emergency. Use front brakes to stop, and rear brakes to slow gently.

Asia: Rear brakes are the strongest, front brakes are deliberately weaker. This is because braking too hard on the front is very dangerous, you'll catapult yourself over the handlebars as the rear half of the bike still has momentum.

Direct translation of exam question:

Which of the following is wrong about using a motorcycle brake?

A use both front And rear brakes

B Front wheel brake first

C rear wheel brake first

D Do not use the front brake too early

Answer B

Look at the problem, to choose " wrong approach ", of course, is to choose " first use the front wheel brake ". The car is moving forward, then the use of front wheel brake, in the role of inertia, easy to cause rollover, we should pay attention to safety!

I guess my overall question is, what are the underlying approaches to brake engineering here? Are either of them 'more correct' or is it a case of different priorities at play?

14 comments

  1. [3]
    itdepends
    Link
    Keep in mind that technically B is also wrong since optimal riding in non-track conditions says you first use a little rear brake and then squeeze the front. Otherwise I don't think there's...

    Keep in mind that technically B is also wrong since optimal riding in non-track conditions says you first use a little rear brake and then squeeze the front.

    Otherwise I don't think there's anything substantial supporting the idea that the rear is more powerful, physics says the weight is transferred to the front and all research and of course motorsport shows that the front is massively more effective.

    I will say however that "western" practice assumes you are riding a full-fat motorcycle, not a tiny underbone. Additionally in most of the west a motorcycle is more of a choice or hobby if you like, not a necessity. In that respect, if everyone and their grandma is ridinga small bike perhaps it's overall safer to teach using the rear because it's less scary, quite effective at low speeds on small bikes and when it goes bad it doesn't go as bad.

    18 votes
    1. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      Yeah I think a major factor here is taking into account the differences in the kinds of bikes that people are typically riding in these places as well as who's typically riding them. Bicycles for...

      Yeah I think a major factor here is taking into account the differences in the kinds of bikes that people are typically riding in these places as well as who's typically riding them. Bicycles for more casual use (such as those for kids or Dutch-style non-sports bikes) also tend to emphasize back brakes over front brakes (if they have front brakes at all).

      7 votes
    2. Auk
      Link Parent
      As someone who has a tiny underbone the front brake even on these definitely still has more potential stopping power. While it's a tiny single leading shoe drum and no bigger than the rear brake...

      I will say however that "western" practice assumes you are riding a full-fat motorcycle, not a tiny underbone.

      As someone who has a tiny underbone the front brake even on these definitely still has more potential stopping power. While it's a tiny single leading shoe drum and no bigger than the rear brake the weight transfer under braking results in traction limitations on the rear (as you'd expect). The main difference from my other bikes is that the CT110 really does encourage using both brakes - the additional braking from the rear does feel more necessary if one wants to actually stop in time.

      4 votes
  2. Jubilee
    Link
    With either bicycles or motorcycles, the front brake is generally going to provide the most stopping effectiveness. That said, a rider should default to using both front and rear brakes but then...

    With either bicycles or motorcycles, the front brake is generally going to provide the most stopping effectiveness. That said, a rider should default to using both front and rear brakes but then adjust the braking strength of both to maintain desired control. This default approach teaches the rider the muscle memory of maintaining balance, front to back as well as side to side. Having this skill is vital for maintaining control when reacting to surprises and encountering adverse conditions. Shifting body weight also plays a big role in braking effectiveness and maintaining control.

    Overall it can get much more complicated, but learning how to brake correctly begins with the default method described above. Lots of practice on a variety of surfaces is a great way to develop riding skills. A rider should be comfortable with recovering from the loss of traction from either front or back. An empty dirt lot or rural dirt road are terrains that provide a good practice environment for testing different braking combinations. Starting at very slow speeds of course. A good first maneuver for all beginners is to begin by coasting without power at around 10 mph, then applying a firm rear brake with the goal of losing rear traction.

    I’ve been riding for over 30 years, and I prefer off-roading at somewhat silly speeds, so feel free to ask if you have questions.

    9 votes
  3. [5]
    Plik
    (edited )
    Link
    Everything I have read or been taught has been ~70% is front brake, 30% rear. In addition to this using each brake individually has different effects. Yes, using entirely front brake can throw you...

    Everything I have read or been taught has been ~70% is front brake, 30% rear. In addition to this using each brake individually has different effects.

    Yes, using entirely front brake can throw you over the bars....if you panic and go full brake. However, using entirely rear brake can cause the rear wheel to slide, and 100% increases your stopping distance. Anything that says to use one or the other exclusively is, I believe, scientifically wrong. The MSF test in the US tests this specifically. You must accelerate to a given speed by a certain point, then brake as quickly as possible. The only way to pass this part of the test is to use both brakes, anything less, and your stopping distance will be too long (easily calculated with basic HS physics): v² = u² + 2as, where v = final speed (0 mph), u = initial speed (~30 mph), s = stopping distance, and a <= some minimum acceptable deceleration.

    What I find more interesting is the almost complete gloss of change in traction and thus acceleration (or deceleration), and the gradient between changing traction between forward motion and turning motion in most rider exams. Again, everything I have read generally says to separate turning and acceleration/deceleration inputs as much as possible, as both types of inputs take from the same pool of traction.

    This isn't the Thai motorcycle test is it? I've heard that one has terrible questions, and even the Thais need to cheat to pass it 😅.

    Edit: "A Twist of the Wrist" is a fundamental read for any rider IMO. Fortnine on YouTube has an amazing Bill Nye the Science Guy style channel on riding. Also a basic understanding of traction, tire contact patches, and changes in motorcycle geometry with changes in acceleration and rider position are valuable.

    7 votes
    1. [4]
      Hollow
      Link Parent
      Not Thailand, no, but one that's just as heavily focused on motorbikes and ebikes.

      Not Thailand, no, but one that's just as heavily focused on motorbikes and ebikes.

      1 vote
      1. [3]
        Plik
        Link Parent
        Ah ok. For bad tests in Asia I usually assume SE Asia. I think Japan's may be even more in depth than the US, not sure about other Asian countries.

        Ah ok. For bad tests in Asia I usually assume SE Asia. I think Japan's may be even more in depth than the US, not sure about other Asian countries.

  4. [2]
    dave1234
    Link
    Here in Australia, we also learn that the majority of braking power is in the front brake. However, we're also taught to: Apply it progressively instead of all at once. This avoids engaging ABS if...

    Here in Australia, we also learn that the majority of braking power is in the front brake. However, we're also taught to:

    • Apply it progressively instead of all at once. This avoids engaging ABS if you have it, or losing traction if you don't.
    • Apply the rear brake at the same time. Using both brakes together gives you more stopping power than just using one.
    3 votes
    1. jcd
      Link Parent
      That's probably the best strategy IME. You brake with the front but you keep balance with the rear. Using both about 70/30 is faster and safer when you need to stop quickly.

      That's probably the best strategy IME.
      You brake with the front but you keep balance with the rear. Using both about 70/30 is faster and safer when you need to stop quickly.

      2 votes
  5. [2]
    mild_takes
    (edited )
    Link
    It depends on the bike. On sportbikes or stuff like that most riders basically ignore the rear brake except for low speed. Your center of gravity is so high and your wheelbase is so short and...

    It depends on the bike.

    On sportbikes or stuff like that most riders basically ignore the rear brake except for low speed. Your center of gravity is so high and your wheelbase is so short and they're typically just ridden on pavement. In normal conditions these bikes can absolutely endo before they lock up, and of course if you come close to an endo you will skid that (edit rear brake!) brake super easily.

    On standards or sport touring I would mainly only use rear brake (alone or in combo with the front) for low speed manoeuvering... less than 50kph. At speed I would basically use 90-100% front brake.

    On scooters I've had they have a lower center of gravity and their brakes a not as powerful. I use both brakes all the time but front brake is still primary.

    braking too hard on the front is very dangerous, you'll catapult yourself over the handlebars as the rear half of the bike still has momentum

    If it's capable of doing and endo then max braking performance will happen using front only and just before that rear wheel picks off the ground.

    2 votes
    1. Spydrchick
      Link Parent
      As someone who raced sportbikes and is familiar with other bikes, you are pretty much spot on. If you look at the engineering of brakes through the years, they have come a long way over the...

      As someone who raced sportbikes and is familiar with other bikes, you are pretty much spot on. If you look at the engineering of brakes through the years, they have come a long way over the decades. Modern bikes absolutely have more stopping power up front (dual disc brakes) however, it takes a lot to endo any bike.

      The other component that is being left out here is suspension. That is a huge part of the handling of MCs, including the braking both front and rear. So yes, chassis length and height, suspension set up, along with the brakes all work together to provide stablity and usability.

      Sportbikes, dirty bikes, touring bikes and cruisers all are engineered slightly differently. Add in the engine/trans with throttle control and you can see how the braking is just one piece of the physics of how a bike, any bike, stops.

  6. PantsEnvy
    (edited )
    Link
    It depends on the rider/ bike/ conditions (dirt/ wet/ incline/ slow/ curve) A newer rider in Asia, likely on an automatic scooter with a hand operated rear brake, who rides rain or shine, busy...

    It depends on the rider/ bike/ conditions (dirt/ wet/ incline/ slow/ curve)

    A newer rider in Asia, likely on an automatic scooter with a hand operated rear brake, who rides rain or shine, busy traffic, unreliable surface conditions, riding slower, maybe it's safer to teach them to max out the rear while being gentle on the front?

    A newer western rider, who probably rides a bike with big twin calipers, with rear operated by the foot, probably with ABS, only in fair weather, it's definitely safer to learn to use the front brake well. Not much rear braking to be had once the front is fully loaded.

    When I practice emergency braking on my street bike, I focus 100% on the front.

    Street riding, I am either clutchless downshifting or front braking, so I leave off the rear brake until I am in the oily looking part of the intersection, where I switch to 100% rear engine brake or regular brake.

    On my mountain e-bike however, I am 80-60% rear and 20-40% front. It's like a scooter with the hand operated rear brake, and I like to go fast down hill on less than ideal surfaces.

    The thing about new rider training, is it's just that, for new riders. After a year or so, you hopefully have progressed beyond what they taught you.

    1 vote