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Let's talk Buffy! Once More, With Spoilers.
Inspired by an earlier thread in this post I'd love to hear what other Buffy fans think about the show. What season is best and why? What elements of the show did you love, or hate? What did the show mean to you? Angel or Spike?
Why not tag this post 'buffy' so people interested in the show can find it later? (Also, if there are enough posts tagged 'buffy', we might get a sub-group ~tv.buffy!)
I would totally support a buffy sub-group! The show is old, but I find that I feel differently about aspects of the show the more I watch it.
It's really hard to pick a favourite season for me. I think in terms of season as a whole, probably season 3 had the total package. They had an awesome villain, Faith was introduced, and the scoobies graduated. Season 5 was pretty strong too with one of the best episodes of the series (The Body), and an excellent finale.
The show itself was probably my favourite growing up. I don't think I really analyzed it when I was young, but seeing a kick-ass female character who could physically beat up bad guys but at the same time show compassion, have a sense of humour, and embrace her femininity was kind of rare in the 90s.
The Body - still makes me sad whenever I think of it. Probably one of the best episodes of TV. Season 5 was really interesting. I remember feeling so confused about it. And though Dawn was so annoying, she was really well done. As someone who has a sister, they really nailed the sister relationship.
The Body is probably the single most moving episode of television I've ever watched. When I'm doing a rewatch and know if's coming I have to be prepared. And not just mentally either– I need to have a box of kleenex with me and make sure I'm not planning to go out after since I don't want to explain to anyone that I've got puffy eyes and cry face from watching a tv show. It's gotten to the point that I start crying at the end of the preceding episode when she's like, "hey flower getting lady!"
I know what you mean. When The Body is coming up, I have to consciously decide to watch it or not.
My favourite seasons tend to change over time. I watched when it was originally on TV, but stopped for a while after season 3 because I was so upset that Angel left and hated that the dynamic might change. Of course it did change– it had to. And to this day season 4 is one of my least favourites.
It just occurred to me that my aversion to change on Buffy between season 3 to 4 might have been because I was graduating high school and entering university too. Like it was enough in my real life that I didn't want to deal with it on tv either. I'm glad I picked it back up a few years later though.
I honestly wanted to like season 4 more than I did, it's the weakest for me too. I love the mixing of old and new, magic and science. But it just didn't work. Riley and Adam were terrible. Though it did have one of the creepiest episodes ever - Hush.
Yeah, there was a nice and insular feel to the high school setting and it definitely felt uncomfortable to see all the characters try to figure out their new group dynamics. It also didn't help that season 4 was, in my opinion, the weakest of the entire series.
Yes, I am in full support if a Buffy subgroup.
Well, it won't happen unless we tag posts like this with "buffy".
I just added the tag- sorry about the delay! I posted last night right before I went to bed since it seemed like there might be some interest and I wanted talk about the show in more detail without spoiling it for the OP of the other thread. I'll have to get used to adding tags. I think Deimos must have added the other two for me.
Yes, he did. You can see this in the sidebar, under Topic Log.
I think my favorite seasons would have to be 3, and oddly, 6. The show hit its stride in Season 2 but 3 was better still and the finale was fantastic.
I know 6 tends to be a bit polarizing even if most people agree it had the best single episode in the series. But I did really like the lack of an overarching external big-bad, the way they went with Willow and Warren and co. was, to me, unexpected and I thought it played well. If that season had a theme it was battling the enemy within, and I thought that was pretty compelling.
Also Spike is a lot more entertaining than Angel at least, and six has the best Spike moments and development. Even the relationship with Buffy, which was unhealthy and pretty close to my NoTP, was realistic in a depressing sort of way. Honestly fuck them breaking up Xander and Anya though, that felt so unnecessary and contrived.
The show was so good in season 2 and 3 that it's a bit of a toss up which one's my favourite. I lean towards 2 though.
This is a really good way of putting it! I mentioned above and in the other thread that I didn't like season 6 at first, but it grew on me and is now one of my favorites. I hadn't thought of it exactly as you described it, but the interpersonal struggles between the Scoobies became much more compelling once I accepted that the show could be enjoyable even when perfect inner circle wasn't united against an external Big Bad.
Yeah chunks of six felt sorta like a Sunnydale slice-of-life, and that was something I really enjoyed after five straight seasons of apocalypse.
The enemy within angle was something I realized writing that but it crops up in pretty much every character arc so I'm sure it was intended that way. You've got Buffy's depression and coping, Willow's magic abuse, Dawn's thievery, Xander's fear of becoming like his family, Warren's descent into darkness and Spike's attempted rape.
Decided to start a new comment for season 7 specifically as it was so different from the rest of the show.
I definitely had to watch it a couple times to "get it", as I didn't even really follow it on TV, and I was religious in watching Buffy, like phone off the hook type. But like others have already mentioned, I didn't like the potentials.
Specifically with the slayer origin story, I am a sucker for a good "the chosen one" trope which was literal and emphasized in Buffy. I think this is one of the reasons I had issues getting onboard with season 7 when it first aired. The potentials just completely changed the core of Buffy and they messed with the dynamic of the Scoobies.
However, rewatching when I was a bit older and more importantly out of school, I realized that maybe I didn't like it before because it was a bit too close to home. I didn't want to watch a tight circle of friends grow apart, or for Buffy to start loosing her ability to rely on her friends, family and mentor. And though I like Spike, I am team Angel. So it was odd watching her build a new relationship and let go (at least the exact way they were) her old relationships. For me, Buffy went from being a superhero to a person, and a real leader, in season 7. Which I didn't think would happen, since Buffy is probably the most real protagonist of lots of shows.
Back to the mythos of the slayers. I wasn't onboard with the "everyone's a slayer now", because it took away from what made Buffy special, and more because I didn't think the potentials deserved it. Buffy was amazing and she earned the power she had. Potentials like Kennedy especially weren't slayer material, they weren't worthy. However, the idea grew on me. Why should only one woman have all the power and why should only one woman be allowed at the top? The potentials were terrible, but they'll learn and they have Buffy and the Scoobies to teach them. And what's more awesome than a powerful Willow actualizing their refusal to continue playing by the same unfair rules and choosing their own game?
Yeah, my feelings towards the potentials changed. I also went from disliking the whole "all these women are slayers" because it messed with the whole chosen one mythos that they had been building since season 1. On re-watch, I actually decided that I love the idea that there are now so many powerful women out there and that Buffy no longer needs to carry the weight of the world on her shoulders. I think my real problem with the potentials has always been that almost all of them were just awful people full of entitlement. Kennedy was the worst one, and they added insult to injury by making her Willow's new love interest. Not that I don't think Willow should have moved on, but I could never really understand what she saw in Kennedy beyond her looks, and that just seemed like a slap in the face to the beautiful/deep relationship she had with Tara.
Edited to correct spelling mistake.
I'm with you– I would have supported Willow moving on, but Kennedy is terrible. She's too forceful, but not in the good empowerment way; in the bad, "I'm above boundaries" way.
I never liked Kennedy to begin with, but to be fair I didn't really like any of the potentials, except for the one Dawn found (can't remember her name). I think my biggest issue with Kennedy is like you said, making her Willow's love interest. Especially the way they did it. They wanted two birds with one stone, so they had Willow move on and get together with Kennedy in the same kiss. I think I would have preferred, Willow moving on, without immediately jumping into a relationship. She had such a deep and strong relationship with Tara that was built over seasons.
Your second paragraph is exactly what I didn't like about season 6 at first and also why I grew to love it. I guess season 7 is a continuation of that theme. It's interesting thinking about how in season 7 Buffy is most alone, but at the same time crowded out. I'll keep this in mind the next time I watch season 7.
As I already said in that other thread, I disliked Season 7 very much. I think the whole direction that Joss Whedon took with the Potentials was wrong, and it undermined the whole mythology of the Slayer as the Chosen One. Also, with all those Potentials running around, it felt like Buffy became a supporting character in her own show!
I think Season 5 is my favourite season, and Seasons 2 and 3 are my next favourite. Season 1 is cute. Season 4 goes through a bit of dead spot after Angel and Cordelia leave. Riley is no replacement for Angel. And Anya hasn't hit her stride yet. And I love Glory - she's my favourite Big Bad!
I think the way Whedon added Dawn in Season 5 is just brilliant: she was treated as if she had just always been there, and we viewers were left with a puzzle that was only revealed and solved over the next few episodes.
I would actually have been content if the show had ended with the finale of Season 5. The show had been cancelled, so Whedon wrote a great finale to send the show off. I cry every time I watch 'The Gift'. It's one of the best-ever series finales of all time.
Yes, the resurrection brought us the magical gem that is 'Once More, With Feeling', but that's one of the very few redeeming feature of the last two seasons.
Season 6 was okay. I could have done with a lot less "
drugsmagicks are bad, m'kay" in that season. The low point of that season is around 'Smashed' and 'Wrecked'. When I re-watch the series, I usually end at 'Once More, With Feeling' or 'Tabula Rasa'. Getting through the episodes in the middle of that season is hard work for me, even though the final section, starting with Xander and Anya's almost-wedding in 'Hell's Bells' is quite good.But I never re-watch Season 7. That season is dead to me.
The Gift would have made a wonderful series finale. I also really liked Glory and the whole concept of having a god as a Big Bad.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I disliked season 6 for a long time. I always liked the episodes you mentioned, but didn't enjoy the feeling of the whole thing. One of the things I'd loved about the series was the friendship between the Scoobies and that really fell away in season 6. Xander and Anya pair up and move away from everyone and so do Willow and Tara. Buffy is on her own and miserable. Plus I hated her with Spike– their relationship was terrible and no good and toxic.
After a bunch of re-watches the problems between the Scoobies are actually why I like the season. I like that Buffy didn't bounce back after being resurrected from heaven. I like that as the characters struggle with growing up that their relationships with each other struggle too. I like that they all make mistakes and engage in self destructive behaviour: that Willow goes nuts with power, Dawn starts stealing, Xander gets in over his head in his relationship, and Buffy starts hate-fucking Spike. It makes them, and their friendship, seem so much more real.
I think Buffy's resurrection is probably one of the best done on TV. They gave it the time and attention it deserved. I really appreciate how it wasn't one pep talk that fixed her. She had to slowly move back into her new life and realize she wanted it herself.
Edit to add: it also pointed out that our always heroic Buffy really did feel that the world was heavy.
I am with you on cool with a season 5 ending which actually made me mad as I watched season 6 and 7 the first time though. The story was done, Buffy got a hero's ending, it was perfect!
I liked the idea of the potentials - it was a great way to make the last season about the whole Slayer thing - it was just a hard thing to properly execute.
I wonder if the idea of the potentials would have been better executed had it been drawn out a bit more. Or perhaps hinted at in earlier seasons so that it was woven into the mythology rather than added on like a patch.
I agree with @Algernon_Asimov's take that it felt like Buffy had become a supporting character in her own show. I still hate that they all turn on her close to the end and kick her out of her own house. I'm neutral on the idea of the potentials in principle and I like the point you made about bringing it back to "the slayer" rather than "Buffy," but it was just too much, too quick.
By far, my biggest problem with the show was the resurrections. Especially Spike. It just made everything feel so cheap. The show was great when it was serious, it mastered the comedy/drama tone in a way few other things ever have and dealt with death brilliantly (e.g. Joyce and Jenny). But as soon as you bring a character back, death isn't serious. The writer loses their most powerful tool and the stakes are permanently lowered.
It's definitely harder to watch now, the more we know about Whedon the more painful some of his themes are, and it ends up looking like some denial therapy workshop for him dealing with mummy issues.
Still, the show gave us some of the best episodes of any TV show. I feel like it's hard not to focus on the faults because it's that close to brilliance.
I actually thought resurrection added to the show, and it's what made Joyce's and Tara's deaths, natural deaths, so powerful.
In a world of magic, and with a strong protagonist anything and everything can be done. But there are limits, and I think for someone to deal so closely with demons and death and resurrection, loss becomes impossible to accept (which was the case for Willow). People die in Buffy all the time, and they are statistics to the Scoobies. But still they are not immune to loss. Resurrection adds depth to not just can they do something, but should they.
I feel the same way. I used to be a die-hard Whedon fan, but I've come to like him less and less as times goes on. His treatment of sex comes to mind, and how it seems like Buffy is constantly punished for having a sex life (Angel becoming a sadistic murderer and the constant threat that he will turn into one again, Parker ghosting her, Spike almost raping her).
I don't know much about Whedon's mommy issues though. I can maybe see it on Angel where pregnancy is kind of a death sentence. Would you elaborate?
I actually didn't mind the resurrections, I think because they were at least inconsistent. I was able to take death seriously when it occurred because sometimes it was permanent, like Joyce, Jenny, and Tara.
This is new to me– can you explain? I'd heard that his ex wife had written something along the lines that he wasn't really a feminist because he cheated on her (a whole bunch) but nothing really beyond that.