Drewbahr's recent activity
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Comment on The DoorDash problem: How AI browsers are a huge threat to Amazon in ~tech
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentIndividual piracy is not the same as corporate piracy. While copyright laws may or may not be draconian, and more works should be in the public domain, the fact of the matter is they're not - not...Individual piracy is not the same as corporate piracy. While copyright laws may or may not be draconian, and more works should be in the public domain, the fact of the matter is they're not - not yet - and in many cases the authors of copyrighted works are still alive and protected by those laws.
Training data need not be pirated, but a significant amount is.
https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/meta-staff-torrented-nearly-82tb-of-pirated-books-for-ai-training-court-records-reveal-copyright-violationsElements publicly posted for free viewing is not the same as being made for public use. I can view a lot of things on YouTube, but created content is protected by the law. And again, there is a difference between a single person ripping a free YouTube video, and a corporation ripping millions of videos.
Ultimately, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this, and that's fine.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentI don't think I follow. Are you inferring that textbooks aren't actually written, but instead cobbled together from other source materials? Because that doesn't seem accurate, at least not for the...I don't think I follow. Are you inferring that textbooks aren't actually written, but instead cobbled together from other source materials? Because that doesn't seem accurate, at least not for the vast majority of textbooks.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentI don't think that the rise and prevalence of AI is a foregone conclusion, considering how much advertising they're forcing on us to insist that we use LLMs and what not, along with how little...I don't think that the rise and prevalence of AI is a foregone conclusion, considering how much advertising they're forcing on us to insist that we use LLMs and what not, along with how little these companies are actually making.
Furthermore, I argue that we shouldn't use it for moral and ... I dunno, "logic-related" reasons. These models were trained on stolen and copyright-infringed materials, and in some cases with the intent of replacing people in what they do. It would be one thing if the LLMs were being used to replace people in inherently-dangerous jobs - for example, automated control systems in industry have replaced the need to send people into dangerous facilities for the sole purpose of turning valves, activating pumps, etc. What's more, in those cases there needs to be a person at a control board that can watch and control said systems.
No, in these circumstances the AI and LLMs are replacing people in artistic endeavors - be they creating art, music, or written works. And yes, I consider writing things like encyclopedias and textbooks to be "artistic" as well.
So, if the people whose works were stolen and copyright-infringed were actually fairly paid for their works, I would have less issues with the use of these LLM models. Those same models would also probably be bankrupt, and/or prohibitively expensive to use, because they stole a lot of works and should have their pocketbooks raked for it.
As for the "logic" argument, what I mean here is that people are, in some cases, using these LLMs and what not to replace thinking and researching. Back in the day, we'd go to the library and hit the card catalogs to find resource books for research on whatever subject we wanted. Google and other search engines kind of replaced that for a lot of students, but when Googling something you still need to, y'know, actually go to the page in question to read about the topic you're searching. With LLMs, you don't even have to do that - you ask the LLM "explain the 100 Years War to me", and it'll do it. You have no reason to search further; the LLM has done the thinking and researching for you, and you never have to develop those skills.
In short, LLMs can make people worse at reasoning, worse at research, worse at "thinking". This is backed up by ongoing research as well.
No one is saying you, thumbsupemoji, have to hate LLMs or what not. We're just sharing the reasons why we don't like them.
I could dig into the example of a hydrogen-powered car, but I don't want to derail the conversation. Suffice it to say, as someone who works in the oil industry but has significant moral issues with the work they do ... I would welcome a cheap replacement to gas-powered vehicles! But hydrogen ain't it.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentI use different words because I was taught not to use a single word too frequently. Writing style and all that. Let me make my stance clear: for lack of a better definition for what...I use different words because I was taught not to use a single word too frequently. Writing style and all that.
Let me make my stance clear: for lack of a better definition for what AI/LLMs/whatever are doing with music, written works, TV, films, etc - all of these AI companies are stealing.
Your argument is confusing, because you're drawing a line where it's okay to take piecemeal works published and available online, but not okay with something downloaded illegally or otherwise unavailable online. A lot of these LLMs training models are using works that were downloaded illegally. In many cases, such as ChatGPT, they are making direct quotes from the works they were trained on, and not simply cut-and-pasting random words.
I would argue that there is a similarity in the training of an AI to (ideally) regurgitate facts and otherwise be a point of reference ... to educating people. When we get educated, a teacher/professor/whatever often gives you a textbook, an assigned reading, that sort of thing. They are not asking you to repeat what you read verbatim, but rather to read it, consider it, and in the end be able to bring about original ideas and combinations of words that speak to truth, history, whatever.
When a teacher uses those textbooks in the classroom, they (or the school district, whatever) have to pay for the use of those books. They can't just steal them and insist that because they aren't repeating the words from the text verbatim, that it's somehow okay and solely original work. The vast, vast majority of the work used to train AIs was not paid for.
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Comment on Toy Story 5 | Teaser Trailer in ~movies
Drewbahr Link ParentTo some extent I figure that Toy Story 4/5 exist to be able to fund movies like Turning Red and other movies. I don't love seeing so many sequels, but if it means we can get more interesting,...To some extent I figure that Toy Story 4/5 exist to be able to fund movies like Turning Red and other movies.
I don't love seeing so many sequels, but if it means we can get more interesting, experimental films too, then so be it.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentI think part of the reason that we reach different conclusions is this: I don't think it's reasonable to expect music to be created for the sole purpose of "the love of the art form". Music, and...I think part of the reason that we reach different conclusions is this:
Then we'll listen to the music that isn't commercially viable, that people create for the love of it.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect music to be created for the sole purpose of "the love of the art form". Music, and other art forms, have always had a financial interest as much as a creative one. The ceiling of The Sistine Chapel, Michelangelo's David, many classical musical works, the list goes on - they were all commissioned art, made not solely for the love of the art itself but made possible by patrons. The artists created the work for money as well as for the arts.
Now, I suppose one could argue that patronage would still exist in an AI-makes-art ecosystem. Patreon exists after all. But one could argue that even that - an artist creating a Patreon to keep themselves afloat, or to finance the creation of their music - isn't actually making music for music's sake anymore. They're creating music based on the wants of their supporter(s).
Now, if we're just talking about people making jam bands, or high school/community orchestra/etc. performances ... well, yeah, those may continue to exist too. But I dunno, it seems quite bleak to have music exist solely as a creative outlet, and not as one that could financially support the artist too.
I may not be organizing my thoughts fully on this, so apologies if this is rambly and disorganized.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentThat's a fair way to put it, yeah. I might add that the whole of the AI industry, as I understand it, is effectively exploitative. It is exploiting artists' works without fair (or any)...That's a fair way to put it, yeah. I might add that the whole of the AI industry, as I understand it, is effectively exploitative. It is exploiting artists' works without fair (or any) compensation.
I believe that all art - be it painting, music, filmmaking, or whatever - is inherently a conversation between the artist and the person or people appreciating their work. This extends to both the culturally-significant works of art, as well as stuff that is created for commercial use. Even if something is made "soullessly" by a corporation, there are still people working hard to create it. It is a fundamentally human-created thing, that can be appreciated (or not) for what it is.
When an AI model takes in millions of hours of music and regurgitates it into an algorithm-matching earworm, where's the conversation between artist and appreciator? What does the work actually say, other than "Spotify thinks you'll listen to this slop X many times this year, which will make us Y many dollars."
I also take issue with the technology, making it so that garbage media like this can be churned out ad nauseam. I am angry at the technology, because the technology has been given sufficient incentives to exist and be used in this way in the first place. Yes, it's a problem of culture and incentives - but it's also a problem of technology! We wouldn't be having this conversation if the technology itself did not exist.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentI don't call it garbage because it's "bad music". I call it garbage because it's bad for culture, it's bad for actual artists who do actual work, it's bad for the environment, it's bad for people...I don't call it garbage because it's "bad music". I call it garbage because it's bad for culture, it's bad for actual artists who do actual work, it's bad for the environment, it's bad for people who want any financial benefit from their work ... it's just bad all around.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentThat's a pretty callous thing to say about people potentially losing their livelihoods due to a technology that is actively stealing their work. I think financial recompense to the artists who...If everything it makes is garbage, then it sounds like that says more about the human artists who are losing to said garbage in the ratings.
That's a pretty callous thing to say about people potentially losing their livelihoods due to a technology that is actively stealing their work.
What do you want to be done about it?
I think financial recompense to the artists who have had their work stolen and their copyrights infringed is a start. Again, none of this AI-generated music would exist if it weren't for the fact that human artists have had their works stolen and copied by these huge AI companies. These companies aren't actually competing "fairly" in the first place - all of these LLM "AI" chatbots are based on news articles, books, literature, and the like having been published by people, for people, and protected under copyright.
Or, at least, they should be protected under copyright, except that these companies just ... stole the content, shuffled the bits around, and didn't pay for fair use of the material in the first place. There's ongoing legal cases surrounding it, and I imagine similar legal issues will become more prevalent, and find their way into AI-generated music too.
And if paying fair financial recompense to human artists would result in these AI-generated music companies going out of business - isn't that just competition too?
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentIt's "competition" in the same way that introducing an invasive species to an ecosystem is just "competition". That AI-generated slop was created by stealing, for lack of a better way to frame it,...It's "competition" in the same way that introducing an invasive species to an ecosystem is just "competition".
That AI-generated slop was created by stealing, for lack of a better way to frame it, from essentially every country music artist that has music available for download. It would not, could not exist without human creativity and feeling. This AI garbage only exists as a consequence of taking from human creation, without actually giving back to the artists from whom it stole. It can generate far more music than a person could create in the same time period, and the vast majority of it will be garbage. Machine-generated music will be able to flood the proverbial zone with so much garbage that you will have a very hard time finding anything created by people, if this becomes the norm.
The fact that some of it comes out listenable, even popular, is incredible as a technical feat. But it comes at the expense of everyone who cares, even a little, about the artistry behind what they do.
Imagine the worst-case scenario, where commercially-viable music from people is no longer available. People are no longer recording music, because it gets drowned out in the wave of AI-generated, algorithm-pleasing slop. There is no more feeling, no more soul, no more meaning behind anything you listen to anymore - because it's generated by a machine, looking to get the most views/listens/etc instead of trying to create something meaningful.
I dunno, I don't see a world where there's an actual benefit - to people, to culture, to anything - from just hosing down the internet with AI-generated slop like this.
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Comment on An AI-generated country song is topping a Billboard chart, and that should infuriate us all in ~music
Drewbahr Link ParentThe "music", as it is AI-generated, is directly harmful to the people who make the music in the first place.The "music", as it is AI-generated, is directly harmful to the people who make the music in the first place.
Another issue, as I’ve pointed out in the past, is that these AI-generated songs are taking attention – and money – away from actual songwriters and artists. Ella Langley is directly behind Breaking Rust at #2 on the Billboard Country Digital Song Sales chart with her latest single, “Choosin’ Texas,” meaning that she would have the top song on the chart if it weren’t for some AI-generated slop that, I suspect, is being boosted by fake streams and followers. (To be clear, I don’t have any evidence of that other than the massive numbers that these songs are doing for an unknown – and fake – artist).
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Comment on The shutdown of USAID has already killed hundreds of thousands in ~society
Drewbahr Link ParentOne could argue that the US never successfully moved past The Civil War, in large part because Reconstruction was never finished. I would argue that the biggest underlying issue in the US has got...One could argue that the US never successfully moved past The Civil War, in large part because Reconstruction was never finished.
I would argue that the biggest underlying issue in the US has got to be white supremacy, which is foundational to much of what we're seeing right now. It also neatly ties into Reconstruction. We, as a nation, have never really stopped being a colonial, genocidal power, one rooted in white Christian identity from the get go.
The two party system is no help, to be sure, and it's a big problem too. But I think the underlying power structure of white identity and Christian nationalism is the 500-pound gorilla of US national issues.
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Comment on James Watson, dead at 97, was a scientific legend and a pariah among his peers in ~science
Drewbahr Link ParentI don't think anything good ever comes out of statements prefaced in this fashion.Granted, I'm not justifying eugenics theories by any means, but
I don't think anything good ever comes out of statements prefaced in this fashion.
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Comment on The shutdown of USAID has already killed hundreds of thousands in ~society
Drewbahr LinkPlease remember that this is Elon Musk's fault. The world's first trillionaire is also a mass murderer.Please remember that this is Elon Musk's fault. The world's first trillionaire is also a mass murderer.
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Comment on Dick Cheney dies at 84 in ~society
Drewbahr Link ParentYou do not, under any circumstances, need to respect a war criminal.You do not, under any circumstances, need to respect a war criminal.
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Comment on Something that always bothered me about the Jonathan Majors trial in ~talk
Drewbahr LinkJonathan Majors is Black. The other two aren't. It may not be THE factor, but it is a factor, and I'd argue a big one.Jonathan Majors is Black. The other two aren't.
It may not be THE factor, but it is a factor, and I'd argue a big one.
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Comment on I tried the best abandoned games in ~games
Drewbahr Link ParentThe most memorable part of playing City of Heroes, for me, was having bumped into Morgan Webb (of TechTV fame). /cool story broThe most memorable part of playing City of Heroes, for me, was having bumped into Morgan Webb (of TechTV fame).
/cool story bro
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Comment on Tucker Carlson’s friendly interview with far-right antisemite Nick Fuentes divides prominent US conservatives in ~society
Drewbahr Link ParentIt doesn't take much to prompt right wing types to align with Nazis. I think the reason is obvious.It doesn't take much to prompt right wing types to align with Nazis. I think the reason is obvious.
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Comment on Can a professional javelin thrower master this ancient weapon (atlatl)? in ~humanities.history
You don't have to. There's no good guys here.