Holiday's recent activity

  1. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    If I'm understanding your comment correctly, you are saying that because the docs already state the priority of the sight, it is unlikely or "extremely" unlikely in your suggested case of this...

    If I'm understanding your comment correctly, you are saying that because the docs already state the priority of the sight, it is unlikely or "extremely" unlikely in your suggested case of this being "extreme scope creep".

    I think that is disingenuous to the argument when we already know that irregardless of a stated objective or priority these things can change. It would be ignorant to assume it will always remain the same. Companies spend millions of dollars on threat analysis preparing for the unknown, and here it costs us nothing but time and oxygen to think about what could happen if the site got bigger and changed.

    Things change, it doesn't hurt to prepare for change.

  2. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    I understand your summary here, and I understand why you think that removing ownership provides a net benefit to everyone. But I think we fundamentally disagree on what is good for User...

    I understand your summary here, and I understand why you think that removing ownership provides a net benefit to everyone.

    But I think we fundamentally disagree on what is good for User experience. I also think that comes from my preconceived notion of what will come of Tildes vs. what you the creator want it to end up as.

    I think I've laid out my arguments in terms of why I believe this issue is not relevant as well as why I would disagree if it was. There isn't much more for me to speak to on the issue but I do need to spend more time reading the docs on the site.

    Thanks for the discussion.

    2 votes

  3. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    Thank you for pointing that out, I am new here but I should have confirmed the existence of that feature already.

    Thank you for pointing that out, I am new here but I should have confirmed the existence of that feature already.

    4 votes

  4. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    You hit the nail on the head! I think we agree on a lot of things but we see the issue differently. After giving it more thought let me explain. I am concerned about maintaining Integrity of a...

    You hit the nail on the head! I think we agree on a lot of things but we see the issue differently.

    After giving it more thought let me explain. I am concerned about maintaining Integrity of a users post. My concern for Integrity overall has to do with bad/good faith actors, their effect on user opinions and upvotes.

    If a user posts the following "The Sky is bleu". You would suggest to edit the "bleu" to say "blue" potentially. And as you have helpfully pointed out, you have made edits to posts to what you believe is a better submission.

    I replaced the link to point to the official location of the trailer, and the result is a better version of the submission.

    Except, you just violated multiple protocols of social norms/public knowledge. You have...

    • Changed what a user has stated.
    • Changed inwards perception on that user by other users.
    • Changed the intent of the user.

    These are irregardless of your intent. You changed everything, just by modifying the link result.

    Intent is important here, as the above examples assume you are acting in good faith. Whereas we know humans are not perfect, we can only assume that at some point even as someone as level and approachable as yourself will inevitably make a mistake. It could be gathered then that a mistake such as editing comments could happen.

    This issue now extends to anyone with that power. If admins or moderators have the ability to change posts we cannot maintain integrity. From a moral standpoint, we can not assume that all moderators/admins/ even you will always act in good faith when it comes to violating the integrity of a users post.

    The question of "Why be forced to remove a submission when I could just fix it!" is great, but only when you are assuredly acting in good faith.

    Eliminating ownership solves everything above, but at what cost? The balance of user submitted content feels woefully inadequate now. Not to mention fire and forget attitudes towards content quality.

    Submit Good content + Receive upvotes/endorsement/good feedback for users = Win/Win
    Submit bad content + Receive no upvotes/ negative feedback = Lose/Lose
    No Content Submitted because there is no incentive = Lose/Lose.

    I post content and I post my opinions because I am eager to receive feedback, conversation and acknowledgement towards myself. Perhaps others feel differently and that is why it is important we facilitate this conversation, but I personally would not enjoy a site where my name is not associated with my actions.

    I still in no way endorse the proposed idea, but I have an idea.

    It sounds like we NEED a provable audit trail/change control showing posters and general users when admins make changes. This would help ensure the integrity of comments/posts submitted by users. It surely would make me more comfortable.

    Perhaps this will help relax users when there is a disclaimer showing that "Yes this WAS your post, but we made changes and here is what."

    4 votes

  5. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    My apologies, I didn't meant to put words in your mouth. For some reason I surmised from this statement... That you didn't want to consider the future. I see where I misinterpreted that. Thank you...

    My apologies, I didn't meant to put words in your mouth. For some reason I surmised from this statement...

    but I don't think anything should be planned with the assumption that Tildes becomes a big faceless mass.

    That you didn't want to consider the future. I see where I misinterpreted that. Thank you for pointing it out.

    5 votes

  6. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    Right! To explain, I disagree with your post. I feel that it's not an issue, but I am lining out arguments explaining that "If this even was an issue, here's what I think." but I remind again at...

    Right! To explain, I disagree with your post. I feel that it's not an issue, but I am lining out arguments explaining that "If this even was an issue, here's what I think." but I remind again at the end, I think this is a non-issue and the discussion is invalid.

    Edit: Essentially, I disagree but I'm trying my best to explain why and consider your point of view.

    3 votes

  7. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    But like it has been discussed below by others, if a moderator needs to take action on your post as far as changing what YOU the user wrote, at that point it should be removed. And to further the...

    But like it has been discussed below by others, if a moderator needs to take action on your post as far as changing what YOU the user wrote, at that point it should be removed.

    And to further the point on post editing, I'll re-cite my previous issue with moderators having the ability to take action on editing posts.

    If I said a sentence out loud into the air, and you changed that sentence so that other people heard it differently and never heard what I meant to say, I would be very upset.

    The issue we are looking at here is identical to the u/Spez fiasco with r/the_donald. The CEO edited peoples posts/comments to what he wanted and didn't tell anyone or give them a chance to say no. And like Deimos just stated....

    However, one thing I've noticed on the (rare) occasions where I've performed those kind of actions is that some people are extremely protective of the posts they submitted, and can get upset about even minor title edits because it's changing their post. Some users have deleted their posts after they were changed, because they didn't like the change.

    Immediately followed by....

    So... what if we made it so that link topics don't really "belong" to any user in particular?

    Whereas the post started with....

    This recent "Suggestions regarding Clickbait and misinformation" topic originally started me thinking about this,

    This is my primary issue with this whole argument, it's a manufactured issue. The lede has been buried hard here. This is not a post quality issue, it's a user rights issue.

    We currently have a win/win scenario with users. Post good content, get upvotes. Post bad content, no upvotes or you get called out. The community self moderates via upvotes.

    Post good content / get nothing. Win/Loss? Post bad content/ get nothing. Loss/Loss?

    I just don't see how any of this benefits anyone but the admins having the ability to tweak posts however they want and as a result users don't have any right to complain.

    4 votes

  8. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    Edit: I should not imply that Whom does not mean "Not think about the future". I incorrectly assumed that is what he meant. I think ideas should always be tested against future circumstances....

    Edit: I should not imply that Whom does not mean "Not think about the future". I incorrectly assumed that is what he meant.

    I think ideas should always be tested against future circumstances. mb3077 is correct in stating that we know what effect larger communities have on posting quality.

    It's disingenuous to suggest that Tildes shouldn't be compared to Reddit. They are identical in a lot of ways, one is simply smaller and still focused on quality over quantity. That lasts for now, we don't know what the future holds. And if the site gets larger and larger these things change.

    The same scenario can be applied to real world communities. A farming community is policed and held together differently than a city of size, say, New York. People don't care in New York if you scream "Fuck off!!!" but they sure do in small rural communities.

    Same thing applys to the internet, we should operate under the assumption Tildes will grow and as such, pre-empt that growth by hypothetically considering our ideas when the user base is larger. In this case, social accountability. Fire and forget features with posts, in my opinion, is a bad idea. And it, as you stated, relieves users of their social responsibility. This is separate from them being held to the rules by admins, but we know as a community gets larger it can be difficult to filter the bad.

    7 votes

  9. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    I agree with the fault you have found there. Essentially this enables a user to "Fire and forget" when it comes to posts. Posted something a lot of people call you out for? "Disassociate" and now...

    I agree with the fault you have found there. Essentially this enables a user to "Fire and forget" when it comes to posts.

    Posted something a lot of people call you out for? "Disassociate" and now that post will drift off into oblivion and you no longer need to worry. Unless someone recorded your name down of course.

    Want to post propaganda a few times until the admins catch you and ban you? You're gonna get away with it for longer when users are unable to call you out for it via post history. "Fire and forget" baby, it's all you need.

    Edit: To clarify though, this would make a great middleground, except for the fact that this enables users to relinquish social responsibility. That is an issue.

    5 votes

  10. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    I kept thinking on this and incase my prior thoughts were scrambled I wanted to make sure to address this point by point for things I didn't prior address. Self auditing a checkbox doesn't work...

    I kept thinking on this and incase my prior thoughts were scrambled I wanted to make sure to address this point by point for things I didn't prior address.

    On that note, it could be a bit weird to lose the connection in cases like a user submitting their own content (such as a blog post that they wrote). Maybe we'd need some way to indicate that, through a standardized tag or something (or even a checkbox when submitting)?

    Self auditing a checkbox doesn't work especially for reasons I've listed below. A standardized tag would only be user enforceable or moderators after evidence has been submitted? This just adds extra steps to everyone's life. I think this would be a bad feature/solution for the proposed change.

    Are there other cases where the submitter is important and associated with the content?

    Propaganda is a very real and present issue in todays internet. Knowing where your info is coming from and who is disseminating it is important. Roger Stone (The one currently under investigation for foreign conspiracy.) was found to be disseminating articles painting him and his crimes in positive lights on Reddit, infowars and other sites. Removing a users identity from the post only encourages this behavior.

    We could use the space in topic listings where the submitter's username is currently displayed to show different, more relevant data instead. For example, maybe the domain could move into that space instead of being after the title in parentheses, or it could display other info like the name of the actual author of the linked content, the channel name for YouTube videos, etc.

    I don't think what we need is more domain information, or whatever else. If it's an article, we should go read it and the authors name will be there. If its a video, we will see where its from. Adding in what equivocates to the duplication of data we will already see just seems overly redundant. I see this as a waste of space.

    If the submitter no longer owns the post, they'd probably no longer have control of deleting it. When could that be an issue?

    Basically every time. While this actually takes the idea of "You cant take back what you say" to its logical conclusion, it doesn't work from a user rights perspective of editing/deleting THEIR submitted content. It generally will create more work for moderators I believe as well. You will inevitably receive messages titled "plz remove this post."

    How would this affect user pages? Should links that the user originally submitted still be visible there, even if they're no longer considered posts that the user "owns"?

    I touched on this above when I stated..

    Who gets to see that record? Just you/admins? That doesn't work either. Suddenly users don't have a post history to reflect on. If it's everyone can see it, what's the point in removing ownership?

    And expanding on that, either you remove it from post histories to keep a "User does not have ownership of this post" motif which still harshly effects a user by removing their footprint / history on the site. Perhaps this is a Me. issue, but if I could not see my post history for submitted links then I would lose the ability to see the sum of my contributions. I could not reflect on past thoughts, opinions or relevant events to me that I shared. I feel this is harmful to my experience as a user.

    6 votes

  11. Comment on What if we eliminated "ownership" of link topics? in ~tildes.official

    Holiday
    Link
    I feel that this is a manufactured issue but at the same time I don't see how removing ownership of a post would solve that manufactured issue. I do feel that Whom makes a great point in that...

    I feel that this is a manufactured issue but at the same time I don't see how removing ownership of a post would solve that manufactured issue.

    I do feel that Whom makes a great point in that removing ownership of posts voids that user of their social responsibility. What is to stop users from either essentially anonymously spreading propaganda or fake news and then disingenuously representing themselves in the comments?

    And while "moderation" should solve that, we know these things can slip through the cracks.

    But I digress, back to why this feels manufactured.

    However, one thing I've noticed on the (rare) occasions where I've performed those kind of actions is that some people are extremely protective of the posts they submitted, and can get upset about even minor title edits because it's changing their post. Some users have deleted their posts after they were changed, because they didn't like the change.

    It is of my humble opinion that there is a clearly obvious reason why these users are upset or react badly to having their posts changed. You took their post. This is assuming these changes were made without authorization.

    If I said a sentence out loud into the air, and you changed that sentence so that other people heard it differently and never heard what I meant to say, I would be very upset.

    That's an invasion of my personal speech. I no longer have control of what I stated, suddenly my post history no longer reflects my own thoughts and speech. It doesn't matter if its punctuation, spelling or wording. You have effectively changed someones statement in mid-air.

    Steve Huffman, Reddit CEO, famously was crucified in many threads for the past two years after he was found guilty of editing critical comments of him.

    So it is my understanding then, with my prior disclosed assumptions, this is a case of unauthorized editing of a users posts. So then by effect, a users post history can no longer be trusted as a real reflection of that users.

    Now, having addressed the manufactured part of it, let me get back to why I think the proposed solution still doesn't work.

    So... what if we made it so that link topics don't really "belong" to any user in particular? We'd absolutely still want a record of who originally submitted the post to be able to notice behaviors like spamming certain domains, but other than that, if it's a good link/story, does it matter much which user submitted it?

    Who gets to see that record? Just you/admins? That doesn't work either. Suddenly users don't have a post history to reflect on. If it's everyone can see it, what's the point in removing ownership? If it's a good story, a user gets the satisfaction of knowing they were the ones to share and provide that good story to their fellow users. "Upvotes" and the "Exemplary" tags and other such things are important to "rewarding" users for submitting quality content. And while the supposed changes only are supposed for link posts, it's still the same. If I submit a life changing article from a tiny blog with only a few views, I feel like I should reap a few "upvote" benefits for my time spent searching and sharing that piece.

    In summary, this issue feels like, for lack of a better term, a you issue. I see 0 discernible reason to remove ownership of posts besides granting anyone but the user a benefit of having control without dissent.

    Perhaps I am too focused on the Admin v. User perspective on this and I invite others to tell me if so, and from there whether they agree or disagree!

    Edit: Formatting.

    7 votes

  12. Comment on What was your fondest memory of a community on the internet ? in ~talk

    Holiday
    Link
    I participated for many years in a group of military simulation groups. I know it sounds ridiculous, but, those guys were like brothers to me for a long time. We were just friends playing games,...
    • Exemplary

    I participated for many years in a group of military simulation groups. I know it sounds ridiculous, but, those guys were like brothers to me for a long time. We were just friends playing games, but we were also part of a well organized community where we all tried really hard to build it better every day. We made virtual war stories and at the same time shared our personal stories.

    You see, these groups were based around a game called Arma 2 (And these groups existed prior as well, but they now focus around games like Arma 3 and Squad) but Arma 2 was a huge facilitator of these groups because the game was designed as a simulator for the U.S Army. When the consumer version was released it also had an API / mod index that could be used so groups could customize the game however they wanted. This caused groups who wanted a gritty and authentic infantry experience to flourish. Guys who really wanted structured and intense gameplay.

    But, as a young kid (Maybe 14/15 at the time?) this was a group of guys and gals, mostly older or middle aged who either were aspiring military, or veterans or event active military. They were irresistible, to hear their stories, to be friends internationally with men and women who saw the world. I learned a lot personally from them and their stories.

    But I digress, as a community, we focused on playing the game. You see I came from a rather rough childhood, and these "Units" we ran were so structured, they gave anyone the chance to make something of themselves in a community, to step forward and shine. I poured hundreds of hours into it, I spent time writing documents on Standard operating procedures, reading army manuals, design tactical writeups, after action reports, attending trainings, running trainings. It gave me a chance to focus on anything but the home environment I was in. I wanted to be something I couldn't be at home, someone who was respected and was considered an equal.

    I think one of my greatest memories was during my boot training with a group where we had to undergo the crucible, the culmination of our weeks of training to induct us into the group. Myself, alone on a virtual island with nothing but a map and a compass to accomplish my goals. I remember I had spent all day doing my chores and getting ready so I could have all the time I needed to complete it. I ran it in record time, the unit commander congratulated me at the end, praising me in having executed it near flawlessly. I felt so proud, I know it was virtual, all I did was click keys and think. But I had used real critical thinking. I had to transmit radio calls with proper protocol, I had to read the map to direct squads and tactics, I had to locate specific sites using grid coordinates. For a kid who didn't have much, it meant the world to me to say I had skills and to be commended for them.

    I spent a lot of years in those units, 242nd Nighstalkers Mechanized, 2ND MEF, 31st MEU, and even a brief stint running my own as the 512th. In fact, I had such a reputation after my time in these groups that up until about a year ago, every once in awhile an email or steam message would land in my inbox requesting me to come run a field training or headup a new divison for a new unit. I grinned every time knowing that someone somewhere had said "Hey I know a guy."

    Recently an old member of our unit the 31st where I had spent two years, actually got the gang back together. I was smiling ear to ear, it was incredible to say hello and talk with my buddies who I'd seen the virtual world with. Spent dozens of hours discussing the finer points of whatever bullshit was the subject of the day. It was simply amazing to experience a reunion with virtual buddies who I had essentially grown up with!

    I have nothing to do with the military in my adult life now though, I'm a system admin these days. But I can still call a 9 line medevac or direct an airstrike properly. Kind of funny how that works.

    11 votes

  13. Comment on <deleted topic> in ~books

    Holiday
    Link
    Non-Fiction: A Higher Loyalty by James Comey. I recommend the season 1 house of cards soundtrack while reading it! I actually read it during my flight to leave D.C. I remember solemnly looking at...

    Non-Fiction: A Higher Loyalty by James Comey. I recommend the season 1 house of cards soundtrack while reading it! I actually read it during my flight to leave D.C. I remember solemnly looking at the Capitol building as I read a particularly grim statement from Comey in his book and thinking Perhaps this is too dramatic..

    Reading this book... humanized much of the government to me and made me realize decisions are truly dynamic in government, not so thoughtless as they sometimes may seem. Comey's struggle with Bush is surprising, and having human insight to what he "believed" during his time in office under Trump is I think important to the current view of the Administration.

    Fiction: Dune by Frank Herbert. This is an old one, and many people have likely read it by now. If you have, great! If not, then by far this one is a wordy, long and somewhat progressive for its time to read. I think it fundamentally changed how I approach a challenge. The famous phrase "Fear is the mind killer" fundamentally changed how I handle stress. Maybe that sounds dumb, but it really did. I also read it when I was 17 so take that with a grain of salt.

    Hope either of these are enjoyable for you.

    3 votes

  14. Comment on Why Tildes doesn't need to be fully public in ~tildes

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    There are subreddits that have handled influxs of users in the tens of thousands or changes in sub population in the same manner. I've been apart of one of them. Locking the doors and saying "Ok...

    There are subreddits that have handled influxs of users in the tens of thousands or changes in sub population in the same manner. I've been apart of one of them. Locking the doors and saying "Ok gang, let's sort this out" is more than an adequate approach for things like Tildes situation.

    3 votes

  15. Comment on Why I Love Tildes: Quality in ~tildes

    Holiday
    Link Parent
    Wow! Thanks for informing me! I hadn't yet read this far and had not seen prior discussions like that. While that definitely impacts what I think the site will shape into, I still believe that...

    Wow! Thanks for informing me! I hadn't yet read this far and had not seen prior discussions like that.

    While that definitely impacts what I think the site will shape into, I still believe that like any other site that Tildes will be a sum of its users and changes can happen. Look at Reddit, look at Digg, look at MySpace. Facebook even. Each of these sites can have very defined and or not very defined goals. It's the users that determine how it ends up. That and the influence of money.

    3 votes

  16. Comment on Why I Love Tildes: Quality in ~tildes

    Holiday
    Link
    I think it's unfair to discredit Reddit as a whole just because people in general like memes and images as easier ways to share things. Reddit is a reflection of its users just like Tildes. While...

    I think it's unfair to discredit Reddit as a whole just because people in general like memes and images as easier ways to share things.

    Reddit is a reflection of its users just like Tildes. While Tildes now is invite only and contains a select group of users, it's easy to scoff and say "Look at the QUALITY of posts on Tildes vs that on Reddit!" whereas Reddit has tens of thousands of posts every ten minutes.

    I think in time Tildes will have inside jokes, memes and things of that nature just like Reddit. It's inevitable, it's a result of a community growing. While text posts are popular now, it's also because its early in the sites life. We could see that change a lot with more users and feature changes.

    15 votes

  17. Comment on Russian spy pleads guilty to engaging in conspiracy against the United States in ~news

    Holiday
    Link
    It should be noted this is the same Maria Butina that was pictured alongside prominent republicans such as, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker and Sheriff David A. Clarke of Milwaukee County at...

    It should be noted this is the same Maria Butina that was pictured alongside prominent republicans such as, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker and Sheriff David A. Clarke of Milwaukee County at fundraising events, long time friend of multiple ranking FSB (successor to the KGB) members and she also acted as a liasion for the NRA.

    She is currently involved in the FBI investigation into Alexander Torshin the Russian Official she admitted to working for and under investigation for money laundering in Spain alongside Torshin.

    She notably met with Trump Jr at an NRA convention two weeks before the Trump Tower meeting.

    Edit: Per Charlie Gile of NBC...

    Butina has entered a plea deal with federal prosecutors and will not be charged with other crimes she commited in DC prior to execution of plea agreement.

    4 votes