viborgu's recent activity
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
viborgu Link Parenthttps://www.vice.com/en/article/mb8y3x/the-nazi-free-alternative-to-twitter-is-now-home-to-the-biggest-far-right-social-network -
Comment on Repeatedly finding myself upset with the conversations on Tildes in ~talk
viborgu (edited )Link ParentYou're very welcome. i hope this and similar discussions will give rise to some concrete and constructive ways to address these issues. I will just note that while there is indeed much similarity...You're very welcome. i hope this and similar discussions will give rise to some concrete and constructive ways to address these issues.
I will just note that while there is indeed much similarity between Tildes and Reddit, there is one crucial distinction you didn't mention. If I was going to make just one improvement to try to detoxify Reddit, it would be removing the downvote button. That was a key insight of Deimos (I assume) when he was designing the basic algorithm here. It is the main tool that troll brigades on Reddit use to shut down opposing views for one thing, it's also just to easy to abuse on an individual basis as well.
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Comment on Repeatedly finding myself upset with the conversations on Tildes in ~talk
viborgu (edited )Link ParentThis is a solid argument with some great constructive suggestions for how to address the issue, thank you. I'm fairly new here, this is the kind of discussion I had hoped to find more of on...This is a solid argument with some great constructive suggestions for how to address the issue, thank you. I'm fairly new here, this is the kind of discussion I had hoped to find more of on Tildes. What occurs to me immediately is that there have been similar attempts on Reddit, although generally in subs where the presumption of good faith is not necessarily there. But there are subs which have options for reporting "grandstanding", "flamebait", and similar kinds of rhetorical dead ends. It's not clear to me how those could be directly applied here, but by adapting them to this environment, and synthesizing with your suggestion of a "harmful" option for reports, it seems like a way of clarifying what the issue is.
For me the eugenics issue is pretty clear. But my impression is that many of the users here are refugees from Reddit, and Reddit has a real problem with bad actors poisoning the well, or normalizing significantly prejudiced views. I'm not saying those same bad actors have migrated here, but the arguments they normalize certainly would seem to, based on some of the comments here. I think the meta-Reddit thread that OP mentioned is in fact one good example of that, much of the discussion seems to originate fairly directly from the frankly bigoted TERF community which is most notable on Twitter from my perspective, and which I saw mentioned on Reddit as a main corroborating source, and apparently OP saw some of the same sources here as well. I don't know what the best way to address this is, but I do think that left unchecked it's likely this forum will repeat many of the mistakes of Reddit.
Just a final note that's been banging around in my head as I browse tildes: with respect to Deimos and the crew here, as a noob hoping for quality discussion, there seems to be a certain paucity of engagement coming from the top here. I know this is probably a shoestring operation, I don't want to make unreasonable demands at all. I appreciate everything they've done so far. But in my experience in watching Reddit almost from the beginning, the best subreddit that ever existed was the original iteration of /r/TrueReddit, when kleopatra6tilde9, the creator, was also moderating. They were very engaged in most discussion in the subreddit that I saw, and did their best just to establish a reasonable and moderate tone there. Again not trying to disparage the efforts here, it's also possible I missed a formative period where there was more engagement, or I just don't recognize the names here who are sort of acting as that moderating force. My point is just that one of the best ways to moderate is by example, and outreach.
*I have to say @Deimos' reply to this thread is not too encouraging. I don't know the ins and outs of all the drama here but the response there basically seems to be "if you don't like it, leave". Which to me very much reflects the attitude you see coming from the top of Reddit on these issues too.
Frankly I think what it comes down to is that there are bad actors throughout social media who have frankly bigoted views, or they have unconscious bias around issues of social justice etc, and they've learned the tricks that bad actors use to push discussions into these rhetorical dead ends, so they parrot those dysfunctional arguments. Either we figure out a way to confront that bullshit directly, or it gradually takes over discussion and over time forces out the people who do value yes "social justice" and more generally reasonable discussion. It's exactly what's happening on Reddit now, the reasonable discussion is mostly gone.
If this is basically the sum of the state of things here I will probably delete my account by the end of the day. I appreciate Deimos' coding skills, but they might want to consider delegating the community interaction to someone else.
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Comment on Repeatedly finding myself upset with the conversations on Tildes in ~talk
viborgu Link ParentI didn't take it personally, in fact I took it impersonally. If I was given that power and someone had made a comment clearly stating it was their first submission, I would at the very least bash...I didn't take it personally, in fact I took it impersonally. If I was given that power and someone had made a comment clearly stating it was their first submission, I would at the very least bash out a quick comment to welcome them and note I edited the title. That's just me though.
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Comment on Repeatedly finding myself upset with the conversations on Tildes in ~talk
viborgu LinkI just commented there to note this too, assuming we're on the same page. What I specifically noted was that the thread on SubredditDrama, which seemed to be one of the first major threads calling...Right now there's a thread about what's going on with Reddit which at times elevates the accusations raised by a group of troublesome individuals.
I just commented there to note this too, assuming we're on the same page. What I specifically noted was that the thread on SubredditDrama, which seemed to be one of the first major threads calling attention to this, very much appeared to be dominated by bad faith trolls. I tried to follow through on some of the Twitter discussion they alleged was making a reasonable case for it, and again, all I found there was at best more bad faith trolling.
I didn't see the eugenics thread, and I'm pretty new here. I'd hate to see this site go the way of Reddit though. Free speech is no excuse for bigotry and bad faith attempts to poison the well, in a forum like this.
How do we stop this?
As far as I can tell, there is basically one individual empowered with acting as the moderator of civil discussion on tildes. Maybe I'm mistaken?
(Just on a side note I have to say it was pretty odd in my first submission on Tildes, where I specifically noted that I was new and that was my first submission, that someone edited my title but didn't comment to offer any welcome or explanation. Not exactly the best way to initiate good faith discussion and build a civil community there.)
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentHaha I very much doubt it's interesting enough for an AMA. To be clear, I didn't say I'm a climate scientist. My main experience in the field is working at what we call "the poop factory". It's a...Haha I very much doubt it's interesting enough for an AMA. To be clear, I didn't say I'm a climate scientist. My main experience in the field is working at what we call "the poop factory". It's a testing lab, mostly sewage plant effluent or drinking water.
*Just noted the link to Mastodon in your bio. I really hope you aren't just another right wing troll. Oh well.
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Comment on "Why is this subreddit private?" or why some large subreddits are protesting the censorship of discussions about a reddit admin's ties to pedophilia. in ~tech
viborgu LinkI saw this at the top of SubredditDrama yesterday. It was very odd to me because that thread, no doubt one of the first to really bring attention to this issue, was OBVIOUSLY being brigaded by...I saw this at the top of SubredditDrama yesterday.
It was very odd to me because that thread, no doubt one of the first to really bring attention to this issue, was OBVIOUSLY being brigaded by disingenuous concern trolls. I know those guys love to seize any opportunity to use "free speech" to poison the well on Reddit but it was remarkable how much of the entire discussion there seemed to be dominated by obvious trolls.
We've basically shut down my subreddit because of the level of toxic brigading going on throughout Reddit now. From other recent discussions I've seen, we're far from the only ones facing these issues.
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Comment on What have you been listening to this week? in ~music
viborgu Link ParentThanks for being so reasonable. I have to admit I reacted a little defensively there. I do wish that the B-word being used by men could get to the point of being as unacceptable as the N-word used...Thanks for being so reasonable. I have to admit I reacted a little defensively there. I do wish that the B-word being used by men could get to the point of being as unacceptable as the N-word used by non-blacks. But I do also think it's a cultural difference. I think frankly most black women don't have a major problem with those kinds of lyrics. But I'm white and I'm a man so maybe that's a bit presumptuous of me -- it is based on my real experiences of being immersed in black culture tho.
Thanks especially for that last lyric, it's one that stands out to me too. The other issue is that braggadocio is just an established part of hip hop culture. Also there is an argument that in a sense many rappers aren't necessarily rapping about themselves, but rather creating characters that they portray in their lyrics. An obvious example is Eminem, for whom Slim Shady was sort of a persona. But consider also Tupac's All Eyez On Me -- it seems like he's talking about his experiences as a gang member carrying out drive-by shootings etcs. You'll find a lot of similar content in most gangsta rap going back to NWA (which included Dr Dre, Ice Cube, Eazy E -- and I think soon after that Dre started working with Snoop Dog). Much of their lyrics are graphic depictions of gang life. However as far as I know the only ones who were really in gangs were Eazy E and maybe Snoop. The rest is about creating personas, and using braggadocio to establish their bona fides.
Which brings us to the other issue in hip hop: authenticity, aka "keepin' it real". I think this is the main reason songs like Low Life appeal to me. It seems authentic even if some of The Weeknd's lines are a little forced ("Camo'd all out like I'm in the military", which he rhymes again with "military"? OK I guess). In my experience this is main metric used in most black communities to assess music. Does it speak to the real black experience of life in a ghetto in what amounts to an oppressive police state from their perspective? Of course much of the allowed range of discussion on corporate radio etc severely restricts the political content of much of this music. (Tupac being a main exception, I don't think he cared too much about passing the corporate cool test). Acts like Public Enemy sure never got much radio play tho.
I think I have more reading to do into the culture/philosophy of this style of music.
I haven't read it yet, but I know one highly recommended book on hip hop as counterculture is called Bomb The Suburbs, you might want to look for that.
As for your question about the typical tastes of techbros, in the most general terms it tends to be similar to the stereotypical "hipster" demographic -- with a similar fixation as hip hop on what is considered authentic, but the experience of hipsters and techbros being so divorced from ghetto life, the hipster/techbro version of authenticity tends to just focus more on rejecting the conceits of mainstream pop music, and often elevating obscurity as one of the main values of authentic music. Techbros, in my experience of being a music mod on Reddit, also often have an aversion to hip hop and I'd guess also music with powerful feminist themes.
However on Reddit the situation is complicated because one or two trolls (or bad actors, whatever you want to call them) can really shit up a subreddit with fairly minimal effort on their part. It can be hard to distinguish the concerted effort of a handful of determined trolls from general community biases in that case. I am pretty sure on Reddit there are a significant number of white European techbros who reflexively assume racism is an American problem and doesn't really affect them or reflect their unconscious biases. They seem to be quite averse to hip hop or other music that elevates themes of black nationalism.
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Comment on Reddit will introduce the option for new users to add their gender identity to their accounts when signing up in ~tech
viborgu Link ParentReddit in particular has a conflicted history when it comes to gender politics. In the decade+ I was there, there were times, around when TheRedPill was at its peak, when fairly overt misogyny was...Reddit in particular has a conflicted history when it comes to gender politics. In the decade+ I was there, there were times, around when TheRedPill was at its peak, when fairly overt misogyny was not uncommon on the front page. It's still not unusual to see threads at the top of AskReddit detailing all of the myriad ways in which our society discriminates against men. I don't think I've ever seen a similar thread that's as sympathetic to the issues women face.
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The Loop: Things I learned from reviewing TV at The A.V. Club
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentRight thanks. You basically expressed exactly what I was thinking but you did a better job of it.Right thanks. You basically expressed exactly what I was thinking but you did a better job of it.
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Comment on There’s no migrant ‘surge’ at the US southern border. Here’s the data. in ~news
viborgu LinkCBP’s numbers reveal that undocumented immigration is seasonal, shifting upward this time of year. During fiscal year 2019, under the Trump administration, total apprehensions increased 31 percent during the same period, a bigger jump than we’re seeing now. We’re comparing fiscal year 2021 to 2019 because the pandemic changed the pattern in 2020. In 2018, the increase is about 25 percent from February to March — somewhat smaller but still pronounced.
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There’s no migrant ‘surge’ at the US southern border. Here’s the data.
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentGood points. I have to say as someone who shares your perspective, last year was a real eye-opener in how much of the public is willing to accept a catastrophic die off of fellow citizens as long...Good points. I have to say as someone who shares your perspective, last year was a real eye-opener in how much of the public is willing to accept a catastrophic die off of fellow citizens as long as it doesn't inconvenience them personally.
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentPeople were saying the clathrate gun had fired 15 years ago. I'm an environmental scientist and I've been following this issue for decades. I have seen no good evidence we have entered that sort...People were saying the clathrate gun had fired 15 years ago. I'm an environmental scientist and I've been following this issue for decades. I have seen no good evidence we have entered that sort of exponential feedback loop yet.
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Comment on The climate crisis is worse than you can imagine. Here’s what happens if you try. in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentBecause we can produce chaos, that necessarily implies we can return the chaos to a more ordered state? That's not logically consistent sorry.Because we can produce chaos, that necessarily implies we can return the chaos to a more ordered state? That's not logically consistent sorry.
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Comment on Climate anxiety is an overwhelmingly White phenomenon in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentI agree with the conclusion to an extent, but I'm also militantly anti-racist. It's about intersectionality, and solidarity building. I wouldn't necessarily assume that there's complete overlap...I agree with the conclusion to an extent, but I'm also militantly anti-racist. It's about intersectionality, and solidarity building. I wouldn't necessarily assume that there's complete overlap between environmentalists and anti-racists.
But yeah this looks mostly like clickbait at best. There's so much BS being circulated about the climate crisis right now -- I don't know if I'm just paying more attention or if it's been ramped up since Biden took office and people can again look to Washington for some sort of real leadership on the issue.
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Comment on Climate anxiety is an overwhelmingly White phenomenon in ~enviro
viborgu Link ParentThank you. I normally would RTFA before commenting but I have to say that from here this looks like a really shitty premise for an article, it doesn't inspire me in the least to read further, and...Thank you.
I normally would RTFA before commenting but I have to say that from here this looks like a really shitty premise for an article, it doesn't inspire me in the least to read further, and it makes me wonder wtf SciAm was thinking:
Is it really just code for white people wishing to hold onto their way of life or to get “back to normal?”
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Comment on What have you been listening to this week? in ~music
viborgu (edited )Link ParentSorry my time is a little limited atm. Well tbh the predominant demographic of Reddit is what I would call the "techbros". Mostly IT people with a variety of people with careers in other STEM...Sorry my time is a little limited atm.
I'm pretty new to this website; what do you see as the predominant music taste of people here?
Well tbh the predominant demographic of Reddit is what I would call the "techbros". Mostly IT people with a variety of people with careers in other STEM fields. By and large this demographic tends to be more white/asian than average and less black and latino; and in general these people will have university degrees and well-paying careers. Some are female to be fair, "techbro" is just a generalization. Tildes seems very much like the Reddit community when I first joined there, which was made up of a similar techbro demographic but it was significantly more reasonable than it is now, except that it appears the community on Tildes is older than the original Reddit userbase. I see the musical tastes of this community as mainly in line with the tastes of the techbro demographic. I didn't worry about the musical tastes of Reddit when I first joined there, and there's no reason I should fixate on the tastes of Tildes now, I can still be a contributing member in good faith here without the need to share my musical tastes.
*I should be clear: I'm not a misogynist, I support #metoo and oppose toxic masculinity. I take issue with your depiction of those songs as examples of misogyny or toxic masculinity. It's just a different culture so I can understand how the terminology would be offputting to an outsider.
I don't know how to determine that. I don't know anything about Mastodon really, I just searched for it to learn what it is, and that's one of the top hits I got.
I'm not especially interested in playing this out endlessly tbh. Maybe my experiences with the toxic and ubiquitous right wing concern trolling on Reddit have permanently soured me to this kind of "enlightened centrist" forum overall.
There was a discussion about the quality of discussion on Tildes that Deimos recently commented on to effectively say "If you have significant issues with the quality of discussion, your best recourse is to leave Tildes." With that I will probably be deleting my account here soon. Not because of this thread specifically, just the level of biased bullshit I see being inserted into discussion here overall. So you don't really need to concern yourself with my wariness of right wing concern trolling as an ongoing issue, I'm probably done here.