wervenyt's recent activity
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Comment on I think I've failed the United States in ~society
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Comment on School choice programs have been wildly successful under Ron DeSantis. Now Florida public schools might close. in ~society
wervenyt Link ParentAnd I think that my individual experience has fuck-all to do with how valid any of those criticisms are. Did my comment distract from the problems, or did it just complicate the issue beyond...And I think that my individual experience has fuck-all to do with how valid any of those criticisms are. Did my comment distract from the problems, or did it just complicate the issue beyond black-and-white?
My individual experience of nearly-failing the majority of my classes, of having about-representative numbers of disabled classmates? Yeah, I do know fairly well that they weren't engaging in those behaviors. Every year the standardized testing scores were released, and that school was above most public schools, alongside one or two of them, and close to a standard deviation below the handful of charter schools who did engage in those discriminatory practices.
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Comment on School choice programs have been wildly successful under Ron DeSantis. Now Florida public schools might close. in ~society
wervenyt Link ParentAnd that is why I replied to a single comment that I felt was slightly inaccurate, rather than defending Schools of Choice as a program. Yes, charter schools often break the law in subtle ways...And that is why I replied to a single comment that I felt was slightly inaccurate, rather than defending Schools of Choice as a program.
Yes, charter schools often break the law in subtle ways that are hard to police. That does not mean that they universally operate that way, nor does it mean that they are uniformly poorer in quality than the public school systems that they compete with for funding, as the comment I replied to implies.
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Comment on School choice programs have been wildly successful under Ron DeSantis. Now Florida public schools might close. in ~society
wervenyt Link ParentAaaand sometimes, none of this is true. In many jurisdictions, charter schools have the same requirements for special education as public schools, receive less funding, and are genuinely...Aaaand sometimes, none of this is true. In many jurisdictions, charter schools have the same requirements for special education as public schools, receive less funding, and are genuinely attempting different methodologies that benefit neurodivergent students.
Not most of them, but the conception of them you've outlined isn't universally true. As someone who never would have graduated from a typical high school, at least the charter I attended gave me a solid education even if I did drop out in the end. It's a politically fraught issue, but some public school systems are terrible anyway, and charters do public good in those situations. Fix the public systems, but there's no need to paint all charter schools one shade.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentI meant to say that your approach to conveying your initial position had that effect, not that you were whining and trying to shut down conversation. I'm sorry for implying otherwise. Your first...I meant to say that your approach to conveying your initial position had that effect, not that you were whining and trying to shut down conversation. I'm sorry for implying otherwise. Your first comment and immediate responses were of a significantly different tone than the following conversation, which were much more centered on your personal investment than the more productive exchange after the fact.
I'm not casting aspersions, I'm saying this, right here, is how division gets fostered. Real people have real pain, and sometimes that limits their perspective, just like people who haven't experienced it are usually unaware of the problems. And other people are afraid of communicating those limitations. And so only the least-competent communicators, since they're used to being told to fuck off, are willing to voice criticisms. And so their criticisms are automatically discredited, and so on.
I've been nearly hit by a car in this exact situation.
And so have I. I haven't brought it up before because, obviously, it comes across as saying "well I'm not mad, why are you mad?" But just because I'm not upset doesn't mean I'm not qualified to have an opinion, and your first comments felt like they were closing off meaningful discussion. Your response was as reasonable as anyone's, and normal, and justified. I hope you can at least believe me when I say I didn't mean to accuse you of any moral failing or disingenuous tactics.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentLike I said, I'm not terribly worried about Sweden going full-tilt police state as a result of this. Other places, with more developed apparatuses of oppression? More so. Note that my first...Like I said, I'm not terribly worried about Sweden going full-tilt police state as a result of this. Other places, with more developed apparatuses of oppression? More so.
Note that my first comment here was a response to yours, and the attitude of shutting down conversation with emphasis on the personal danger and frustration you experience due to these infractions, while also saying you'd settle for easy reporting without the bounty. "We have to do something, why don't you take my pain seriously?" inhibits honest discourse about solving problems because it privileges any action, fueled by spite, that purports to improve things, even if it'd cause negative externalities that might (not, in this case) outweigh the benefits, regardless of the reality of the problems that victimize those being pandered to.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentIncrementalism, sure. Put bollards along bike lanes, tow people for offending repeatedly, employ more law enforcement tasked with identifying and peacefully resolving infractions. But not...Incrementalism, sure. Put bollards along bike lanes, tow people for offending repeatedly, employ more law enforcement tasked with identifying and peacefully resolving infractions. But not exchanging evils for convenience's sake, that's where I draw the line personally. It's not a dichotomy between "do nothing" and "fix problems". Just to clarify.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentIt is if the means of enforcement rely on untrained random citizens arbitrarily assuming the duty to report "the bad thing" for a bounty. That's the paranoia, not in thinking "hey, this is a bad...It is if the means of enforcement rely on untrained random citizens arbitrarily assuming the duty to report "the bad thing" for a bounty. That's the paranoia, not in thinking "hey, this is a bad place to park, I might even get fined".
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentI would not go that far, simply because it's not productive. In a real sense, sure, but so is refusing to rock the boat when coworkers start suggesting a union, or continuing to vote for the...reporting people blocking bike lanes if there's a financial reward for the reporting is a moral failure?
I would not go that far, simply because it's not productive. In a real sense, sure, but so is refusing to rock the boat when coworkers start suggesting a union, or continuing to vote for the Democrats or Republicans. Theoretically you could find a moral high ground to mock people from, but it's so costly as to be individually excusable. And that is a dangerous thing, to build systems that harm people for trying their best.
Otherwise, yes. Cleaning up the externalities of failures is a good way to keep the failing structures unexamined, especially in democracies where so much progress can only come from frustration with the status quo.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentIt fuels a culture of paranoia and implicit consent to secrecy in policing. On a very small scale in this case, but it's hazardous to spread around the responsibility of law enforcement in a...It fuels a culture of paranoia and implicit consent to secrecy in policing. On a very small scale in this case, but it's hazardous to spread around the responsibility of law enforcement in a system that still privileges the trained officials.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentThe compensation gives people a reason to go along with whatever the bounty is for, therefore disincentivizing a) real reform of the sources of problems, and b) people from pushing against new...The compensation gives people a reason to go along with whatever the bounty is for, therefore disincentivizing a) real reform of the sources of problems, and b) people from pushing against new bounties, as the profit motive gives people plenty of justification to compromise their morals. These things are culturally addictive, just look at another case of bribing the citizenry to vote against their own long term interests: the USA's use of prisons and the staffing needed to run them to "stimulate" locally stagnant economies.
The compensation is how totalitarianism justifies itself.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentBecause I'm tired of repeating myself: the issue is the bounty, not the laws around parking. Those were examples of where the reporting would be both unlikely to disincentivize the infraction as...Because I'm tired of repeating myself: the issue is the bounty, not the laws around parking. Those were examples of where the reporting would be both unlikely to disincentivize the infraction as well as lead to a reduced sense of responsibility for the fine compared to the generic decontextualized "wrongdoer".
There clearly isn't a categorical reason such a thing should be more harmful to the social fabric than breaking the law, so I assume you consider it a matter of degree. In that case I feel like comparing the effects of reporting traffic infractions to the effects of secret police forces in totalitarian states is more than a little disingenuous.
Are they being employed, invisibly from all outward appearance, to inform on legal infractions against their neighbors? Because that is very much like secret policing.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentBecause I'm tired of repeating myself: the issue is the bounty, not the laws around parking. Those were examples of where the reporting would be both unlikely to disincentivize the infraction as...Because I'm tired of repeating myself: the issue is the bounty, not the laws around parking. Those were examples of where the reporting would be both unlikely to disincentivize the infraction as well as lead to a reduced sense of responsibility for the fine compared to the generic decontextualized "wrongdoer".
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentThanks, I appreciate the relevant context for the article!Thanks, I appreciate the relevant context for the article!
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentThat net includes almost every crime, though, and the distinction I made is pretty significant. Illegal dumping by random civilians cleaning out their attics is probably not meaningfully being...That net includes almost every crime, though, and the distinction I made is pretty significant. Illegal dumping by random civilians cleaning out their attics is probably not meaningfully being reported by whistleblowers, even with the bounties. The area they're hopefully effective in is curtailing business owners and their management from believing they can get away with it.
Red light cameras are in the same camp, absolutely. At least there it isn't relying on inherently inconsistent random civilians, but it is still a situation where unsafe city planning decisions and diffuse coordination problems are being used to enrich a select few private individuals acting as middlemen, hence further disincentivizing their interest in supporting reform that removes a line of income. Social workers, acting as law enforcement officers, are effectively police. The gun doesn't make the civic purpose, the authority and (theoretical) responsibility do.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentI think that drivers who get fined will justify themselves as right to themselves, much like DWI repeat offenders who have access to public transit and cabs. Very few people are perpetrating the...I think that drivers who get fined will justify themselves as right to themselves, much like DWI repeat offenders who have access to public transit and cabs. Very few people are perpetrating the severe infractions you're focused on, and they're already disregarding laws and customs, so are very likely to have already come up with self-justifications that'd resist rational decision-making. I just think pollards would be a better use of money than bounties to try to effect change in this population's habits. Maybe my assumptions are wrong, though, and it's a huge number of offenders making what feel like small infractions, in which case more consistent enforcement would probably do quite a bit. I'd rather have police do the policing though (in theory).
Thanks for the link. It seems like those enumerated are all focused on 1. fraud perpetrated against the government and corruption, 2. large scale organizational crimes, and 3. environmental pollution. Those rewards exist to make up for reporting essentially torpedoing the whistleblower's career in at least the short term. Those are such a different kind of crime, and such different reasons for a lack of enforcement, that I'm unsure how they'd be indicative of probable outcomes from paying people to report other individual citizens for endangerment-scale infractions.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentI think you have a stronger faith in the average driver's ability to make such judgments than I do, after consideration. Well, fair. Also, that's a bad thing? And it can always get worse. But it...I think you have a stronger faith in the average driver's ability to make such judgments than I do, after consideration.
What interpersonal trust does a stranger have for you, or you for them at the moment? None that I see.
Well, fair. Also, that's a bad thing? And it can always get worse. But it isn't about cultural solidarity, just not creating or intensifying the norm of objectifying one another as "violators" for reward.
What whistleblower rewards exist for misdemeanors committed by individuals? I'm unfamiliar.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentIt's a contempt of court charge in the US, where "we don't have debtors prisons anymore". I have no clue about Swedish law, but I would be surprised if they didn't have analogous outcomes. How...It's a contempt of court charge in the US, where "we don't have debtors prisons anymore". I have no clue about Swedish law, but I would be surprised if they didn't have analogous outcomes.
How does impounding work? If someone tried to flee the punishment before the tow truck arrived, or tried to (even nonviolently) prevent a tow truck from hitching the car, or hid it to prevent impounding, what would be the legal result? In most jurisdictions, to my knowledge, at the end of these nonviolent avoidances of payment lies some form of unambiguous violence.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentA situation that could result in violence is not the same as a threat of imprisonment backing a fine. This is not ambiguous or even a controversial idea. These arguments aren't even good...A situation that could result in violence is not the same as a threat of imprisonment backing a fine. This is not ambiguous or even a controversial idea. These arguments aren't even good sophistry.
Governments monopolize violence. By the way you frame it, my argument would be "the army exists, so living is implied violence". What I said was limited to the issuance of punishment for a legal violation. Which specifically rests on the exercise of that monopoly, rather than coincidentally happening near it. Please stop with the bad faith argumentation.
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Comment on Swedish company Scout Park has launched a mobile app where you can tip off wrongly parked cars to traffic wardens to earn money in ~transport
wervenyt Link ParentIt's an implication of violence. If it weren't, the fines would be voluntary. It strikes me as slightly more absurd to classify "illegally occupying space that is presumed to be open" as violence,...It's an implication of violence. If it weren't, the fines would be voluntary. It strikes me as slightly more absurd to classify "illegally occupying space that is presumed to be open" as violence, even if it implies reckless endangerment.
There are endless nits to be picked in this broader political conversation, and there's a time and place for that. Others have already said enough along those lines, so I'm going to address specifically your sense of regret and negligence:
Ifs, buts, should'ves, would'ves, are eternal and infinite. We could always have done something better and will always have things we know with certainty we should do, in and only of retrospect. The value of choice, however, lies in the now, and in the future. Anyone saying "told you so" about these issues is not being a serious person, and one thing you can choose to do with this regret, now, is to be serious going forward. You've seen your previous errors, whatever they were in particular, and to see them is to learn. You are allowed to be proud of that, and to some degree, you should be. Today is a new day, and tomorrow will be as well.