31 votes

'The Ghost in the Shell' just ended, what are your thoughts?

Posted by uaeaaie (edited )
Tags: spoiler, ask.discussion, koukaku kidoutai, the ghost in the shell

I've only watched the 1995 movie before, so it was a pleasant surprise this closer adaptation turned out to be straight crime drama with dense political intrigues and social commentary. The world feels more detailed and not just backdrop for philosophical musing, and so the questions being raised are more multi-faceted.

A particular highlight for me is the child-trafficking /ghost dubbing subplot. Not only does it further blur the lines between artificial and organic intelligence, but does so in a way that put more emphasis on the ethical dimension and not leaving it abstract.

Another example is her court statement questioning whether her shooting the kid or whoever brainwashed him in the first place should be more responsible for his death. The philosophical question is whether the death of a person should be marked when their mind or their body ceased to function, but the context of this being a defense for police unlawful killing gave me second thoughts.

Major's more lively characterization here also makes for an interesting contrast especially regarding her final act. In the 1995 version, she was morose since the beginning and just generally passive overall, so I interpreted her merging with the Puppet Master as due to being coerced, or her not very attached to living to begin with and so this is akin to a suicide on her part.

However, this version of Major is sexually active and enjoys indulging in life many pleasures. Crucially, merging (which was heavily implied to be analogous to digital procreation) was her choice, which makes that final decision more as embracing the call to adventure and choosing to enjoy new experiences, hence more life affirming.

Most of the political conspiracies went over my head though so if anyone can help explaining that side of the plot to me that would be great.

11 comments

  1. [5]
    Well_known_bear
    Link
    Don't have a lot to add to my earlier comments except that I thought they did a good job on the scene with the Puppet Master explaining its proposal. The original is not easy to digest to say the...

    Don't have a lot to add to my earlier comments except that I thought they did a good job on the scene with the Puppet Master explaining its proposal. The original is not easy to digest to say the least, but the show uses imagery to make it more understandable.

    Most of the political conspiracies went over my head though so if anyone can help explaining that side of the plot to me that would be great.

    To limit this solely to the back end (starting from mid-episode 8):

    • Japan's foreign minister (newly appointed after the fallout from the Puppet Master incident) and Ghorantl's trade delegation hold trade talks at Poseidon Industrial.
    • A man in optic camo shakes down a police source to get information about a young terrorist.
    • Section 9 receives an anonymous tip and sends in a team to capture the terrorist on a boat for questioning. Kusanagi kills the young terrorist in self-defence and the incident is filmed and broadcast, putting Section 9 in jeopardy.
    • It is discovered that the terrorist was planning to assassinate the foreign minister. Batou mentions that the foreign minister has been pressuring megacorps to work with Ghorantl (this was originally Israel in the manga but presumably got changed due to the current political climate).
    • It is revealed that the foreign minister's liaison (the blonde moustache guy) was monitoring the terrorist at the time of Section 9's strike and was responsible for leaking the footage to the media, stating that Section 9 was a thorn in their side.
    • Section 9 hacks the terrorist's laptop and links the terrorist to the Mesamian embassy (originally Syria).
    • The minister of justice leans on Aramaki to cut Kusanagi loose to save Section 9. Batou questions if the foreign ministry in turn leaned on him to do so.
    • Aramaki speculates that if it is disclosed that Mesamia was behind the assassination attempt, this would aid the progress of the Ghorantal trade talks (in the manga, it's explained that it was a hot potato political issue for Israel to do business with Japan since they had ties to the Arab states over oil - this is less clear in the anime with the fictional countries), which would be a win for Japan's foreign ministry. At the same time, the fallout from the televised killing would also serve as the foreign ministry's revenge against Section 9 after the Puppet Master incident.
    • Kusanagi investigates a Ghorantl intel Bed, but Ghorantl blows it up as a false flag operation for the above purposes, blaming it on Mesamia and making it politically easier to cinch the deal with Japan's foreign minister.
    • At the inquiry over the killing, the question is raised of why Japan (Section 9) was involving itself in a dispute between the two countries, implying that the background has now been made public.
    • Kusanagi flees during her trial, infuriating the foreign minister who threatens to work with the opposition to damage the credibility of the ruling party.
    • The foreign ministry liaison contacts Ghorantal intelligence (dude with the red artificial eye) and demands that they take out Kusanagi. Section 9 records the call.
    • Aramaki speaks with the PM, who says that the foreign ministry has obtained trade concessions from the Middle Eastern states and also made the usual promises to "make best efforts" in the talks with Ghorantal, which costs nothing, implying that he used the situation to play both sides.
    • Ghorantal's intelligence agent arranges for Kusanagi to be sniped.

    Yeah, it's messy, and this is the expanded version from the anime. All of this is squeezed into one chapter of around 45 pages in the manga.

    7 votes
    1. [4]
      uaeaaie
      Link Parent
      Thank you, I thought I missed a lot but didn't realize it's this much. So basically, the foreign minister wanted trade deals with Ghorantl. Mesamia sent a terrorist to stop him but Kusanagi killed...

      Thank you, I thought I missed a lot but didn't realize it's this much.

      So basically, the foreign minister wanted trade deals with Ghorantl. Mesamia sent a terrorist to stop him but Kusanagi killed him. Foreign minister's guy was also monitoring, decided to leak the footage anyway both to bolster support for his deal with Ghorantl, and also discredit Section 9 (because he had connection with Section 6 and their puppet master project?). Ghorantl then basically joined in, attacked Kusanagi to put more blame on Mesamia and also stopped her from investigating their deal. When Kusanagi escaped, the foreign minister told Ghorantl to take her out, but it turned out he was never that serious about getting a deal with Ghorantl anyway. So this whole thing was more about revenge than realpolitik, wasn't it.

      Could you also help me on why the bomb guy tipped off Kusanagi during the flase flag attack? She said they owed Section 9 a favor but I missed how.

      2 votes
      1. [3]
        Well_known_bear
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Yeah, Section 6 (the foreign ministry treaty review section) works for the foreign ministry. The Puppet Master, as project 2501, was being used by them for corporate investigations, intel...

        Foreign minister's guy was also monitoring, decided to leak the footage anyway both to bolster support for his deal with Ghorantl, and also discredit Section 9 (because he had connection with Section 6 and their puppet master project?).

        Yeah, Section 6 (the foreign ministry treaty review section) works for the foreign ministry. The Puppet Master, as project 2501, was being used by them for corporate investigations, intel gathering and espionage to further their own agenda, but eventually got out from under their control after believing it was an independent living being.

        The consequences of all of that coming to light are shown in the ep 8 scene where Aramaki meets with Nakamura, the head of Section 6 (dude with the half metal face). The foreign minister is forced to resign under a cover story of illness and Nakamura will face a long inquiry. This is where the foreign ministry's grudge against Section 9 comes from.

        Ghorantl then basically joined in, attacked Kusanagi to put more blame on Mesamia and also stopped her from investigating their deal.

        Ghorantl basically just wanted to sway public sympathy in their favour, making it easier for Japan to do the deal with them despite already having connections with the Middle Eastern oil states. They're working with the foreign ministry who also want the deal to go ahead, but it's really the foreign ministry that has the problem with Section 9.

        When Kusanagi escaped, the foreign minister told Ghorantl to take her out, but it turned out he was never that serious about getting a deal with Ghorantl anyway.

        The guy on the phone with Aramaki at the end is the prime minister of Japan. He has different motivations from the foreign ministry. You could interpret him as just being a shrewd political operator who reacts to whatever situation he's presented with (e.g. during the press conference immediately after the killing is leaked, he just says he has no comment at all in relation to the 'low intensity conflict').

        Could you also help me on why the bomb guy tipped off Kusanagi during the flase flag attack? She said they owed Section 9 a favor but I missed how.

        This guy (Sabiro) is a double agent working for Volgarena (a Russian KGB agent in the original) who has infiltrated the Ghorantl base. I don't know if Kusanagi actually knows him or is speaking figuratively when she says 'rekindle an old friendship', but the reason he helps them out is to return the favour Section 9 did for them in Iturup:

        • The outgoing Volgarena diplomat hints to Aramaki that her replacement Asechinof was not chosen by their government but was put there due to general Marlov's manipulation of funds.
        • Asechinof sends the cyborg Coil to Iturup and Section 9 is assigned to monitor him.
        • Batou and Togusa track Coil to the geofront beneath the city which used to be a Volgarena base, discovering the gold left behind by Volgarena when they pulled out (Iturup in the real world became Russian territory following WW2 but in this setting was returned to Japan).
        • Kusanagi discovers that Kagasaki, formerly of public safety, was working with Marlov to launder misappropriated public funds.
        • Asechinof is repatriated and the gold is returned to Volgarena. Volgarena's government is also successful in cutting off Marlov's funds which would have been used to bolster his political ambitions.
        2 votes
        1. [2]
          uaeaaie
          Link Parent
          Thanks, that helps. Do you know if there's anything in the manga that they haven't adapted still?

          Thanks, that helps. Do you know if there's anything in the manga that they haven't adapted still?

          2 votes
          1. Well_known_bear
            Link Parent
            There's two more volumes of the manga. No idea if anyone has plans to adapt those.

            There's two more volumes of the manga. No idea if anyone has plans to adapt those.

            2 votes
  2. Loopdriver
    (edited )
    Link
    I really really liked the visual style. The vibrant colours and the high fidelity to shirow drawings somehow set it apart from the rest, in a good way. Most of the many iterations of this story...

    I really really liked the visual style. The vibrant colours and the high fidelity to shirow drawings somehow set it apart from the rest, in a good way.
    Most of the many iterations of this story just tried to recreate the same feeling of the mamoru oshii's movie over and over again... The fact they go in a different direction is nice.

    Storywise I found it pretty consistent with the manga but consider I read it eons ago :)
    Sometimes I found it coming off, a sketch here... Two sentences there... But all in all it was very good in my opinion.

    5 votes
  3. legogizmo
    (edited )
    Link
    I really loved this adaptation, I never read the manga but I hear it is pretty faithful. The style and vibe of this series is excellent and really leans into the 'punk' aspect. I really appreciate...

    I really loved this adaptation, I never read the manga but I hear it is pretty faithful.

    The style and vibe of this series is excellent and really leans into the 'punk' aspect.

    I really appreciate that it seems to be a single self contained season but I won't be mad if they announce another season.

    Stand Alone Complex is still my favorite though, and I recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it yet. It's longer run allows for more exploration of the team beyond just the major and the laughing man mystery is more interesting to me. (also it was my first exposure to GitS, so I'm biased)

    2 votes
  4. [2]
    culturedleftfoot
    Link
    Sidebar - having not watched it myself (yet), how highly does anyone recommend it?

    Sidebar - having not watched it myself (yet), how highly does anyone recommend it?

    1 vote
    1. xothist
      Link Parent
      It is very well done. The visuals in some of the action scenes is just unreal. Science Saru really put their all into it. If you have even a passing interest you should definitely check it out.

      It is very well done. The visuals in some of the action scenes is just unreal. Science Saru really put their all into it. If you have even a passing interest you should definitely check it out.

      2 votes
  5. [2]
    ocean-hai
    (edited )
    Link
    Watching this thanks to your post. I am enjoying the first episode but why the cringe Naruto run, lol (around 18:20). I find it a lot less philosophical to the original movie, feels much too...

    Watching this thanks to your post. I am enjoying the first episode but why the cringe Naruto run, lol (around 18:20).

    I find it a lot less philosophical to the original movie, feels much too contemporary.

    edit the philosophical bits by the end were frankly quite cringe and not meaningful...

    7.5-8/10 fun show but cannot think critically.

    1 vote
    1. uaeaaie
      Link Parent
      Yeah, definitely more action heavy. Don't worry the philosophy bits will come later. The extended run time allows for more explanation which even helps me understand the old movie a bit more.

      Yeah, definitely more action heavy. Don't worry the philosophy bits will come later. The extended run time allows for more explanation which even helps me understand the old movie a bit more.

      1 vote