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China Miéville
Is anyone here familiar with his work? Perhaps you could recommend a starting point for someone more inclined towards exploring darker urban / sociopolitical realist "fantasy"; not so interested in escapism for the sake of escapism. LeGuin over Tolkien, etc.
I've read a good number of his books. I assume when you mention:
this is referring to the combination of the City & the City / Perdido Street Station?
I'd throw in Embassytown as a must read from China, it's his magnum opus IMO :
You might also enjoy Paolo Bacigalupi's work, e.g., The Windup Girl which imagines the world and social structures resulting from the depletion of carbon-based fuels and the resulting push of large agri-firms (think Monsanto) completely taking over the world food (and thus fuel) supply through sterile GMOs.
this is exactly what i'm talking about. I will definitely try to read some Bacigalupi in the coming weeks, plus i think Embassytown will be my starting point for China. thx for the suggestions
edit: spelling
China Mieville is part of the movement/genre known as the new weird. As the name suggests, some of his work can be pretty out there. Perdido Street Station and the other Bas-Lag books are probably your best place to start for reading some of his novels. If you want some, in my opinion, more accessible works in the same genre, I highly recommend Jeff Vandermeer. Specifically, I love the Southern Reach Trilogy (first book in Annihilation and is often referred to as Area X trilogy), City of Saints and Madmen, and Borne.
If you want to get an overview of the genre and get introduced to some other authors, The New Weird is an anthology of various short stories from new weird authors. They range in quality from really good (Immolation being my favorite by far) to kinda meh.
what's the worst piece of writing in this style you've ever read?
I've pretty much only read Mieville, Vandermeer, and the anthology I linked, so, probably whatever the weakest story on the anthology is. Some of the stories are too weird for my taste and a common themed I've noticed in Mieville's short stories (from reading Three Moment of an Explosion, his latest work) is that a lot of times he just doesn't explain what was really happening and basically ends before a real resolution.
I like Vandermeer a lot better because his stories feel more complete, while with a lot of other New Weird you might not get a satisfying conclusion or a real conclusion at all.
I've read "The Last Days of New Paris" and I loved it, but it took me a while to understand what the hell was going on (I didn't know anything about the novella or Mieville before reading).
Have you read Lois McMaster Bujold? You may like her style. Or NK Jemisin and her Broken Earth trilogy? Or even Margaret Killjoy maybe your style (urban gritty fantasy).
Oh man, I had forgotten all about the Vorkosigans. Must have been awhile since I've read them, but I remember tearing through a bunch of them.
"hackers fighting ICE and private prisons with semi-autonomous drones" I'm interested...
Kraken is fantastic! Highly recommended, and is honestly not only one of my favorite books by him but one of my favorite books ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraken_(novel)
Runner up: Iron Council.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Council
You're in good hands with Mieville.
Thanks; always appreciate a recommendation.
I am not super familiar with Miéville, having only read the Bas-Lag trilogy... however:
I definitely think ASOIAF somewhat fits that description, as does Malazan Book of the Fallen but they are still pretty "traditional" style Fantasy series. However I think the works of authors like Guy Gavriel Kay, who are considered "Historical Fantasy" writers might be more what you're looking for. His Sarantine Mosaic duology is absolutely fantastic and should be close to exactly what you're looking for IMO. Similarly, Brian McClellan's Powder Mage trilogy is also very good and focuses a lot on sociopolitical issues and intrigue.
p.s. Might I also suggest something like James Clavell's Asian Saga? It "Historical Fiction" and is based in the "real" world with no magical/fantasy elements, but I think it might be right up your alley, too.
Thank you for your advice.
I've read all books from ASOIAF series and would consider it closer to pornography than sociopolitical realism. I am not interested in historical fantasy because to me that seems like a trap of the worst parts of fantasy dressed up in the crudest outfit of historical bombast. Also, I would argue that "sociopolitical intrigue" is another way of saying "drama" and that is also not what I'm interested in.
That aside, what did you think of Bas-Lag series?
NP for the advice, but maybe you should give the Sarantine Mosiac a try before writing it off based on your preconceptions of the genre? And TBH it kind of sounds to me like you're looking more for a fantasy world history treatise or some fantasy world-building documentation rather than a novel (which I am only aware of a scant few of, e.g. Silmarillion), since it's almost impossible to write a novel without focusing on and developing the characters in them through exploration of the drama in their fictional lives.
p.s. I thought Bas-Lag was pretty good. It reminded me very much of the really unique, gritty and dark world-building aspect in Malazan, which I liked a lot... New Crobuzon felt almost like a character in the novel itself. However I really disliked Miéville's use of language. I am all for expanding the vocabulary of the reader but at time it felt like Miéville was intentionally using a thesaurus at every conceivable opportunity just to make his writing hard to understand and perhaps himself seem smarter.
I will give Saranite Mosiac a try; appreciate the time you took to offer a recommendation.
Hmm, you make a good point; perhaps I contradicted myself somewhat. I'll need to think more about the exact criteria that I'm interested in and try to communicate it clearly.
That's funny about dense language. I hate that too, for the most part... e.g. Lovecraft's writing really irritates me a lot of the time; not because I don't understand it, but because I would argue that it actively disrespects the reader with its masturbatory verbosity.
Lol, yeah I feel the same way. Malazan is one of my all-time favorite fantasy series purely for the amazing characters, interesting story and unique world-building. However Steven Erikson, the author, really does get pretty masturbatory with his verbosity (particularly with his character monologues, which can go on for page after pompous page) and it makes the series really hard to recommend to people as a result.
I think observations like these allow us to see the character of the author coming through, and a lot of the time that is more interesting and impactful (on their legacy, and on the final form of the text) than whatever is going on in the "fiction".
Oh, most definitely. One extremely powerful character in the series in particular, Kruppe, is the most verbose/self-righteous of all, whose monologues can go on for almost entire chapters at times, and IMO is clearly a bit of a masturbatory power fantasy and surrogate for who the author wishes he could be. Another, Tehol Bedict, a financial super genius character is probably also another but thankfully isn't quite such a pompous windbag as Kruppe. But those two characters especially are more interesting for what they tell me about Erikson than what they actually contribute to the story. :P