Bans on single-use plastics should be implemented everywhere immediately. Anyone know why it's not a more popular policy? Are politicians really worried the electorate will punish them for...
Bans on single-use plastics should be implemented everywhere immediately. Anyone know why it's not a more popular policy? Are politicians really worried the electorate will punish them for implementing policies that will be a minor inconvenience now, but an important improvement to our future?
well, i can give you one reason: single-use plastic bans are almost always used by people to "address" climate change and environmental pollution without actually doing anything of substance...
well, i can give you one reason: single-use plastic bans are almost always used by people to "address" climate change and environmental pollution without actually doing anything of substance that's going to avert the looming environmental crises we have created for ourselves. they look good and make people feel good, but in the grand scheme of things, plastic pollution is a pretty small problem compared to other issues like deforestation and natural disasters, and a lot of politicians and people check out once something like this passes, because we've played up plastic as this big issue which it is in a vacuum, but it's also not in the context of why bans like this are being levied in the first place.
are things like this good? yes, they are. but we've generally presented things like plastic bans as steps to fixing problems when they're really more like band-aids limiting the creation of more problems, and that's going to be costly given the limited political capital there seems to be for addressing climate change and other environmental issues. we shouldn't be spending what little we currently have on things that are basically cosmetic like this--or at least, not just on things like this anyways, as tends to be the case. otherwise, people will entrench themselves in the idea that we've done enough, why do you need more, why do we need to ban more? and we'll probably end up in even worse gridlock than we're already in.
Banning single use plastics doesn't have anything to do with climate change. It's about not further contributing to the great pacific garbage patch which is largely made of single-use plastics.
Banning single use plastics doesn't have anything to do with climate change. It's about not further contributing to the great pacific garbage patch which is largely made of single-use plastics.
it absolutely does. politically, they're one and the same and usually are addressed by the same legislation and policy, and people really only give a shit right now because it's tied to the...
Banning single use plastics doesn't have anything to do with climate change. It's about not further contributing to the great pacific garbage patch which is largely made of single-use plastics.
it absolutely does. politically, they're one and the same and usually are addressed by the same legislation and policy, and people really only give a shit right now because it's tied to the environmental degradation and pollution issues that people also identify as playing a part in climate change. i guarantee you there would not be nearly the push there is to currently address plastic pollution if it wasn't spoken in the same breath as climate change is.
Yes, they are politically linked, but acting like this legislation is pointless virtue signalling because it doesn't tackle climate change specifically is disingenuous. This is still meaningful,...
Yes, they are politically linked, but acting like this legislation is pointless virtue signalling because it doesn't tackle climate change specifically is disingenuous. This is still meaningful, impactful legislation dealing with a major negative impact we humans have on the environment.
Not quite... "10 single-use plastic items will be banned " So not all single-use plastic items. Good start though. I know when I was a kid (70's) it was rare to come across any plastic food items....
Not quite... "10 single-use plastic items will be banned "
So not all single-use plastic items.
Good start though.
I know when I was a kid (70's) it was rare to come across any plastic food items. Bottles were glass, drink cups were wax-coated paper, takeout/carryout was paper or wax-coated paper. Even candybar wrappers were not plastic.
Honestly, those items being plastic did nothing to improve the quality of the product nor my life. Well except for the newer cool takeout plastic containers that I use for sorting LEGO and holding all sorts of things in my workroom.
These are the specific items banned (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20190321IPR32111/parliament-seals-ban-on-throwaway-plastics-by-2021) Single-use plastic cutlery (forks,...
Single-use plastic cutlery (forks, knives, spoons and chopsticks).
Single-use plastic plates
Plastic straws
Cotton bud sticks made of plastic
Plastic balloon sticks
Oxo-degradable plastics and food containers and expanded polystyrene cups
A decent start to the plastic problem though there's loads more that needs to be done. The only problem I see is with plastic straws, because for some disabled people they are very useful.
They're not meant to be change that directly impact the consumer. They simplify the manufacturing process and make it cheaper. It can also make it possible for manufacturers to sell some items by...
Honestly, those items being plastic did nothing to improve the quality of the product nor my life.
They're not meant to be change that directly impact the consumer. They simplify the manufacturing process and make it cheaper. It can also make it possible for manufacturers to sell some items by the unit, where before they would always sell it in packs of 6+.
Whether these are overall positives is another story.
You know what should be banned? Those coffee-capsules. That is utterly unnecessary and plain pathetic. I am talking about the Nespresso-like capsules. I had one of those machines but just bought a...
You know what should be banned? Those coffee-capsules. That is utterly unnecessary and plain pathetic. I am talking about the Nespresso-like capsules.
I had one of those machines but just bought a "manual" cheap one. Coffee is better, cheaper and I don't feel like a jerk. Win win. Fuck them.
Nespresso is actually a pretty poor example, since Nestle makes an effort to make those capsules recyclable. IIRC everywhere that sells them is also a drop-off point where you can take the used...
Nespresso is actually a pretty poor example, since Nestle makes an effort to make those capsules recyclable. IIRC everywhere that sells them is also a drop-off point where you can take the used ones to be recycled.
You may be thinking of Keurig K-cups. They are made with a mix of materials so they cannot be recycled unless you tear apart the components that make it up, which, of course, nobody does.
Why should they be banned though? If a system is "utterly unnecessary and plain pathetic", banning it also seems utterly unnecessary, doesn't it? Like, why did it get popular? Answering the...
Why should they be banned though?
If a system is "utterly unnecessary and plain pathetic", banning it also seems utterly unnecessary, doesn't it? Like, why did it get popular?
Answering the question why it's popular may highlight strategies or even solutions that don't require governments to start banning things.
Because it's not just the producer and the consumer that factor, the price of single use coffee pods is being subsidized by society as a whole paying for disposal. For instance, whether or not I...
Why should they be banned though?
Because it's not just the producer and the consumer that factor, the price of single use coffee pods is being subsidized by society as a whole paying for disposal. For instance, whether or not I use them, I pay for their use with the degradation of my local environment viz a viz plastic pollution.
And with the extremely low cost of plastic production, you're going to have a very hard time curbing plastic pollution without regulation and bans on unnecessary plastic packaging.
Doesn't answer why coffee pods should be banned. That statement is true for every single packaged product. Make it a tax on all plastic use and now we can talk. But beware the consequences…
the price of single use coffee pods is being subsidized by society as a whole paying for disposal
Doesn't answer why coffee pods should be banned. That statement is true for every single packaged product.
Make it a tax on all plastic use and now we can talk. But beware the consequences…
Why should it be banned? For the same reason why these single-use plastics are being banned: It's bad for the environment and they are unnecessary. Also, they possibly contaminate the coffee and...
Why should it be banned? For the same reason why these single-use plastics are being banned: It's bad for the environment and they are unnecessary. Also, they possibly contaminate the coffee and so they are also bad for your health.
A lot of things are bad for the environment -- much worse than these coffee pods. And we don't ban them. That's not to be whataboutist, of course, but these are only bad for the environment (as...
A lot of things are bad for the environment -- much worse than these coffee pods. And we don't ban them.
That's not to be whataboutist, of course, but these are only bad for the environment (as in, worse than any other plastic, single-use or not) insofar we can't dispose of them properly. And nothing points to that being the case.
Coffee pods are always used in kitchens/offices or other environments where they'll almost certainly be disposed of appropriately. Whereas straws and drinking cups are likely to be littered in the street, end up in sewers, or be thrown away on beaches.
I feel like your original post is a knee-jerk reaction to simply being frustrated at these coffee pods existing. I'm with you on that by the way, I hate the damn things. But you have to think these things through if you actually want to change them.
The coffee-pods are non recyclable (AFAIK). So, you can properly dispose them, sure... by throwing them in the trash. The fact that "a lot of things are [...] much worse for the environment and we...
The coffee-pods are non recyclable (AFAIK). So, you can properly dispose them, sure... by throwing them in the trash.
The fact that "a lot of things are [...] much worse for the environment and we don't ban them" is not a (good) reason to not ban coffee-pods. There is a usability, need and alternatives debate that needs to happen before banning stuff, I'd say. There is no need for coffee-pads and there are good alternatives. Those other things that you mention might be needed, or might not have good alternatives. If they are not needed, and have good alternatives, then ban them as well. Seems easy.
Most people simply don't care about the environment, they are too narrow-minded. It is the same with privacy. Even if those companies came up with a better product (for the environment), society might not care. There are several variables that defines if a product is well taken or not, and its weight on the environment is just (a small) one. Moreover, multinationals are money driven. As long as something is not drawing negative attention to their name, they'll not look for more environmentally friendly alternatives. Due to this, government bodies need to create regulation to safeguard everyone's interests.
The difference in our attitude is that you default to ban, I default to a more libertarian-freemarket approach. Not because I believe in the free market (I don't), but because banning things...
The difference in our attitude is that you default to ban, I default to a more libertarian-freemarket approach. Not because I believe in the free market (I don't), but because banning things doesn't scale => Each ban has to be justified, created, enforced, then defended.
You have to find solutions that work with the market. Economical forces cannot be overpowered.
Yeah, that's why there is still freon in our fridges, aerosol cans and air conditioners, lead in our gasoline, bisphenol A in our water bottles, asbestos in our insulation, etc... oh, wait, no...
Economical forces cannot be overpowered.
Yeah, that's why there is still freon in our fridges, aerosol cans and air conditioners, lead in our gasoline, bisphenol A in our water bottles, asbestos in our insulation, etc... oh, wait, no there isn't... because they were regulated out of continued use, despite often being the cheapest/most effective options at the time. ;)
https://archpaper.com/2018/08/epa-asbestos-manufacturing/ -- don't be quick to mock here. My point was that it's extremely hard to overpower economical forces. And that is why regulations...
My point was that it's extremely hard to overpower economical forces. And that is why regulations (environmental, health & safety, taxes, …) are constantly worked around, sometimes criminally so (remember Volkswagen?).
My point is that "ban everything by default" is not a stance you can maintain, even short term. You need to find ways to have the system go where you want it to all on its own. This usually requires doing the leg work of creating the path of least resistance, because it's 50/50 on whether the natural path is a healthy one to take.
Think of it like dieting to lose weight. "Ban all food except salad" is known not to work. You need to create a maintainable long term diet, change habits altogether.
Asbestos never totally went away, nor did I say it did... I am Canadian and we still export vast quantities of it for industrial use. But for products where it can get airborn and cause...
Asbestos never totally went away, nor did I say it did... I am Canadian and we still export vast quantities of it for industrial use. But for products where it can get airborn and cause asbestosis/mesothelioma, (e.g. building insulation) it has been successfully banned throughout most of the world. The US' consumer protection backslide is the exception not the rule.
And your point does not really apply here, IMO. Banning single use plastics is not "banning everything by default", it's banning something definitively proven harmful, which the benefits and convenience of allowing to continue production of does not outweigh... exactly the same as all the other examples I listed.
My original post was in reply to a suggestion to ban coffee pods, which seemed to stem more from frustration that those coffee pods are a thing than from an actual weighed-and-though-through...
Banning single use plastics is not "banning everything by default"
My original post was in reply to a suggestion to ban coffee pods, which seemed to stem more from frustration that those coffee pods are a thing than from an actual weighed-and-though-through suggestion.
Those plastic coffee pods are just another example of a single-use plastic item and they have all the same drawbacks (and limited benefits) as the others.
Those plastic coffee pods are just another example of a single-use plastic item and they have all the same drawbacks (and limited benefits) as the others.
Sucks for disabled people who rely on single-use plastic straws because of their particular characteristics. (Don't need cleaning, won't harbor bacteria, can be used in hot drinks, are bendable...
Sucks for disabled people who rely on single-use plastic straws because of their particular characteristics. (Don't need cleaning, won't harbor bacteria, can be used in hot drinks, are bendable and positionable, don't trigger allergies, don't dissolve in drinks causing a choking hazard, are resistant to chewing, aren't dangerous if you bite down or make sudden movements, etc.)
I tried to find some actual text of what was voted upon, but I was unable to. Are all plastic straws banned with no exceptions or contingencies?
To my knowledge, it specifically targets items that are single use in a commercial context. There will likely still be single use plastic available if there is no other option (cases you...
To my knowledge, it specifically targets items that are single use in a commercial context. There will likely still be single use plastic available if there is no other option (cases you mentioned), though over time I would expect the industry to find viable alternatives to avoid low-output production runs.
Bans on single-use plastics should be implemented everywhere immediately. Anyone know why it's not a more popular policy? Are politicians really worried the electorate will punish them for implementing policies that will be a minor inconvenience now, but an important improvement to our future?
well, i can give you one reason: single-use plastic bans are almost always used by people to "address" climate change and environmental pollution without actually doing anything of substance that's going to avert the looming environmental crises we have created for ourselves. they look good and make people feel good, but in the grand scheme of things, plastic pollution is a pretty small problem compared to other issues like deforestation and natural disasters, and a lot of politicians and people check out once something like this passes, because we've played up plastic as this big issue which it is in a vacuum, but it's also not in the context of why bans like this are being levied in the first place.
are things like this good? yes, they are. but we've generally presented things like plastic bans as steps to fixing problems when they're really more like band-aids limiting the creation of more problems, and that's going to be costly given the limited political capital there seems to be for addressing climate change and other environmental issues. we shouldn't be spending what little we currently have on things that are basically cosmetic like this--or at least, not just on things like this anyways, as tends to be the case. otherwise, people will entrench themselves in the idea that we've done enough, why do you need more, why do we need to ban more? and we'll probably end up in even worse gridlock than we're already in.
Banning single use plastics doesn't have anything to do with climate change. It's about not further contributing to the great pacific garbage patch which is largely made of single-use plastics.
it absolutely does. politically, they're one and the same and usually are addressed by the same legislation and policy, and people really only give a shit right now because it's tied to the environmental degradation and pollution issues that people also identify as playing a part in climate change. i guarantee you there would not be nearly the push there is to currently address plastic pollution if it wasn't spoken in the same breath as climate change is.
Yes, they are politically linked, but acting like this legislation is pointless virtue signalling because it doesn't tackle climate change specifically is disingenuous. This is still meaningful, impactful legislation dealing with a major negative impact we humans have on the environment.
could you quote the part where you think OP says this?
Not quite... "10 single-use plastic items will be banned "
So not all single-use plastic items.
Good start though.
I know when I was a kid (70's) it was rare to come across any plastic food items. Bottles were glass, drink cups were wax-coated paper, takeout/carryout was paper or wax-coated paper. Even candybar wrappers were not plastic.
Honestly, those items being plastic did nothing to improve the quality of the product nor my life. Well except for the newer cool takeout plastic containers that I use for sorting LEGO and holding all sorts of things in my workroom.
These are the specific items banned (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20190321IPR32111/parliament-seals-ban-on-throwaway-plastics-by-2021)
A decent start to the plastic problem though there's loads more that needs to be done. The only problem I see is with plastic straws, because for some disabled people they are very useful.
Do you know if the ban is/will be against plastic straws in general, or only single-use plastic straws?
From my reading it's all plastic straws.
They're not meant to be change that directly impact the consumer. They simplify the manufacturing process and make it cheaper. It can also make it possible for manufacturers to sell some items by the unit, where before they would always sell it in packs of 6+.
Whether these are overall positives is another story.
You know what should be banned? Those coffee-capsules. That is utterly unnecessary and plain pathetic. I am talking about the Nespresso-like capsules.
I had one of those machines but just bought a "manual" cheap one. Coffee is better, cheaper and I don't feel like a jerk. Win win. Fuck them.
Nespresso is actually a pretty poor example, since Nestle makes an effort to make those capsules recyclable. IIRC everywhere that sells them is also a drop-off point where you can take the used ones to be recycled.
You may be thinking of Keurig K-cups. They are made with a mix of materials so they cannot be recycled unless you tear apart the components that make it up, which, of course, nobody does.
Why should they be banned though?
If a system is "utterly unnecessary and plain pathetic", banning it also seems utterly unnecessary, doesn't it? Like, why did it get popular?
Answering the question why it's popular may highlight strategies or even solutions that don't require governments to start banning things.
Because it's not just the producer and the consumer that factor, the price of single use coffee pods is being subsidized by society as a whole paying for disposal. For instance, whether or not I use them, I pay for their use with the degradation of my local environment viz a viz plastic pollution.
And with the extremely low cost of plastic production, you're going to have a very hard time curbing plastic pollution without regulation and bans on unnecessary plastic packaging.
Doesn't answer why coffee pods should be banned. That statement is true for every single packaged product.
Make it a tax on all plastic use and now we can talk. But beware the consequences…
Why should it be banned? For the same reason why these single-use plastics are being banned: It's bad for the environment and they are unnecessary. Also, they possibly contaminate the coffee and so they are also bad for your health.
A lot of things are bad for the environment -- much worse than these coffee pods. And we don't ban them.
That's not to be whataboutist, of course, but these are only bad for the environment (as in, worse than any other plastic, single-use or not) insofar we can't dispose of them properly. And nothing points to that being the case.
Coffee pods are always used in kitchens/offices or other environments where they'll almost certainly be disposed of appropriately. Whereas straws and drinking cups are likely to be littered in the street, end up in sewers, or be thrown away on beaches.
I feel like your original post is a knee-jerk reaction to simply being frustrated at these coffee pods existing. I'm with you on that by the way, I hate the damn things. But you have to think these things through if you actually want to change them.
The coffee-pods are non recyclable (AFAIK). So, you can properly dispose them, sure... by throwing them in the trash.
The fact that "a lot of things are [...] much worse for the environment and we don't ban them" is not a (good) reason to not ban coffee-pods. There is a usability, need and alternatives debate that needs to happen before banning stuff, I'd say. There is no need for coffee-pads and there are good alternatives. Those other things that you mention might be needed, or might not have good alternatives. If they are not needed, and have good alternatives, then ban them as well. Seems easy.
Most people simply don't care about the environment, they are too narrow-minded. It is the same with privacy. Even if those companies came up with a better product (for the environment), society might not care. There are several variables that defines if a product is well taken or not, and its weight on the environment is just (a small) one. Moreover, multinationals are money driven. As long as something is not drawing negative attention to their name, they'll not look for more environmentally friendly alternatives. Due to this, government bodies need to create regulation to safeguard everyone's interests.
The difference in our attitude is that you default to ban, I default to a more libertarian-freemarket approach. Not because I believe in the free market (I don't), but because banning things doesn't scale => Each ban has to be justified, created, enforced, then defended.
You have to find solutions that work with the market. Economical forces cannot be overpowered.
Yeah, that's why there is still freon in our fridges, aerosol cans and air conditioners, lead in our gasoline, bisphenol A in our water bottles, asbestos in our insulation, etc... oh, wait, no there isn't... because they were regulated out of continued use, despite often being the cheapest/most effective options at the time. ;)
https://archpaper.com/2018/08/epa-asbestos-manufacturing/ -- don't be quick to mock here.
My point was that it's extremely hard to overpower economical forces. And that is why regulations (environmental, health & safety, taxes, …) are constantly worked around, sometimes criminally so (remember Volkswagen?).
My point is that "ban everything by default" is not a stance you can maintain, even short term. You need to find ways to have the system go where you want it to all on its own. This usually requires doing the leg work of creating the path of least resistance, because it's 50/50 on whether the natural path is a healthy one to take.
Think of it like dieting to lose weight. "Ban all food except salad" is known not to work. You need to create a maintainable long term diet, change habits altogether.
Asbestos never totally went away, nor did I say it did... I am Canadian and we still export vast quantities of it for industrial use. But for products where it can get airborn and cause asbestosis/mesothelioma, (e.g. building insulation) it has been successfully banned throughout most of the world. The US' consumer protection backslide is the exception not the rule.
And your point does not really apply here, IMO. Banning single use plastics is not "banning everything by default", it's banning something definitively proven harmful, which the benefits and convenience of allowing to continue production of does not outweigh... exactly the same as all the other examples I listed.
My original post was in reply to a suggestion to ban coffee pods, which seemed to stem more from frustration that those coffee pods are a thing than from an actual weighed-and-though-through suggestion.
Those plastic coffee pods are just another example of a single-use plastic item and they have all the same drawbacks (and limited benefits) as the others.
Sucks for disabled people who rely on single-use plastic straws because of their particular characteristics. (Don't need cleaning, won't harbor bacteria, can be used in hot drinks, are bendable and positionable, don't trigger allergies, don't dissolve in drinks causing a choking hazard, are resistant to chewing, aren't dangerous if you bite down or make sudden movements, etc.)
I tried to find some actual text of what was voted upon, but I was unable to. Are all plastic straws banned with no exceptions or contingencies?
To my knowledge, it specifically targets items that are single use in a commercial context. There will likely still be single use plastic available if there is no other option (cases you mentioned), though over time I would expect the industry to find viable alternatives to avoid low-output production runs.