11 votes

How to best utilise 5k GBP

Hey everyone, as a goal for this coming year I’d like to better put to use the small amount of savings I have.

My first idea is:

  • 3k emergency fund in a NS&I Government insured account.
  • 2k in a Vanguard index fund.

A few questions:

  1. Is this sort of setup the best use for such a sum?

  2. If so, with the impending brexit, does it makes sense to move the money out of the U.K?

  3. Is there much maintenance with an index fund or is it sufficient to let the money sit? I’m aware anything of this nature is essentially a gamble.

  4. How do you calculate a worthwhile amount to invest considering the on-running service costs?

  5. Does anyone have experience with ethical index funds? If so which? And how have they performed for you?

Any help is most appreciated.

17 comments

  1. [4]
    Greg
    Link
    A lot of this will depend on what you're saving for: retirement, a house deposit, starting a business, etc. - if you're looking at an equity fund (usually, but not always, what people mean when...

    A lot of this will depend on what you're saving for: retirement, a house deposit, starting a business, etc. - if you're looking at an equity fund (usually, but not always, what people mean when talking index funds) then you'll want enough time to ride out any market dips and wait for the overall trend to assert itself (at least assuming that the last century or so is representative...).

    I'm no more than an educated amateur, so don't take this for any kind of actual financial advice - just my thoughts.

    1. The broad impression I get here is that you're on a reasonable and sensible track. On the NS&I side, I quite like Premium Bonds for quick access savings - from a pure numbers point of view they aren't the most sensible, but the meaningful impact of £2/month interest is so little that maybe a tiny gamble that doesn't affect the principal is worth it! Vanguard index funds are low fee and do the job well, the key is picking the right one for your needs.

    2. I wouldn't. Currency conversions, taxes, and the complexity of dealing with them are likely to wipe out any advantage - if indeed there is an advantage, since you'd be making an active bet against the pound there. A more gentle, and in my opinion more appropriate hedge would be an index fund which contains stocks from a number of countries. You would be exposed to their markets while still keeping the funds in the UK.

    3. Generally just let it sit; you might want to tweak the risk exposure as you get closer to the time you want to start withdrawing (e.g. moving a pension fund towards a more bond-heavy mix as you reach retirement), but anything more than that is likely to lose you money either in fees, or in trying and failing to time the market.

    4. Look at percentage fees, as well as estimated inflation, and deduct them straight from your expected percentage return. That'll give you an estimated net percentage and you can figure out a real cash expectation from what you put in and how long you intend to leave it there. If you're looking at any fixed amount fees, you can then take them off that cash figure.

    5. It's narrowing your field of potential investments, for sure. On the other hand, it's narrowing them in a specific direction that you might think will do better (or worse) than the market at large.

    5 votes
    1. [3]
      milkbones_4_bigelow
      Link Parent
      Hi @Greg, thanks for this. Appreciate the note regarding calculating net percentage. I'm keen to keep costs low and will be doing some research into Vanguard fees in the coming months. Are you by...

      Hi @Greg, thanks for this. Appreciate the note regarding calculating net percentage. I'm keen to keep costs low and will be doing some research into Vanguard fees in the coming months. Are you by any chance using a broker in the UK and if so which?

      1 vote
      1. [2]
        Greg
        Link Parent
        I don't have a direct recommendation for you, but the lowest cost option if you want to go with one of their index funds is likely to be going for a stocks & shares ISA directly with Vanguard. The...

        I don't have a direct recommendation for you, but the lowest cost option if you want to go with one of their index funds is likely to be going for a stocks & shares ISA directly with Vanguard. The key decision then would be which of their funds to choose - they offer about 80, based on quite a wide variety of different markets and indices.

        2 votes
        1. milkbones_4_bigelow
          Link Parent
          Thanks Greg, will take a look in the coming days.

          Thanks Greg, will take a look in the coming days.

          2 votes
  2. [2]
    Sybil_Fleming
    Link
    I don't live in the UK so take this advice with some salt: The usual recommendation is to keep 1-3 month's worth of living expenses as an emergency fund, so 3k may or may not be enough to keep...

    I don't live in the UK so take this advice with some salt:

    The usual recommendation is to keep 1-3 month's worth of living expenses as an emergency fund, so 3k may or may not be enough to keep depending on your expenses. I generally direct newbies to the Bogleheads wiki but there may be better resources for the U.K.

    1. The only one who can decide the best use of your money is... you. Think on your present and future needs and hold the money accordingly. The time horizon of your plans (emergency fund, saving for a new gadget/house/etc, retirement bucket...) should determine what sort of gains/risk to take.
    2. Nobody knows exactly what Brexit will bring, but converting currencies can be expensive and trying to set up bank accounts outside your country of residence can be difficult.
    3. An index fund tracking whole markets is a very simple instrument. You don't need to do anything besides purchasing shares (and re-investing the dividends if that's necessary). Some time ago I heard that the U.K. was in a particularly bad place as far as fees went, but if Vanguard is there then their fees should be pretty low.
    4. Again, I have no idea what the fee situation in the U.K. is but keeping costs low and being aware of the tax implications of your investments is a necessity.
    5. Ethical funds by definition will reduce the diversity of your investments and possibly introduce higher fees (therefore likely to drive down your returns). It is up to you to decide if that's worth it.
    4 votes
    1. milkbones_4_bigelow
      Link Parent
      Apologies for the tardy reply, I've not had my laptop with me over the holidays. Firstly thank you for your reply. I wasn't aware of the bogleheads wiki and that seems to be exactly the help I'm...

      Apologies for the tardy reply, I've not had my laptop with me over the holidays. Firstly thank you for your reply. I wasn't aware of the bogleheads wiki and that seems to be exactly the help I'm looking for. For others interested the short video series on investment philosophy seems to be an excellent introduction to getting a basic handle on your finances. Thanks again @Sybil_Fleming.

      2 votes
  3. [4]
    timo
    Link
    Emergency fund is a very good idea. Actually, everyone should have one! On investing: The potential absolute profits with 2k aren't that big. It may be interesting if you plan on adding additional...

    Emergency fund is a very good idea. Actually, everyone should have one!

    On investing: The potential absolute profits with 2k aren't that big. It may be interesting if you plan on adding additional funds on a regular basis, which greatly increases this potential. On the other hand, it really depends on why you want to invest it. Could you elaborate on that?

    2 votes
    1. [3]
      milkbones_4_bigelow
      Link Parent
      Thanks so much for your response. How would I go about defining a value that would yield decent absolute profit? i.e if 2k is a little low, what should I be shooting for? In terms of why, I would...

      Thanks so much for your response. How would I go about defining a value that would yield decent absolute profit? i.e if 2k is a little low, what should I be shooting for?

      In terms of why, I would just like to put the little money I can save each month to work in a sustainable way. It's my understanding that there's a good amount of data to suggest one such method is riding out the market in the long run by putting that money into an index fund. I'm a real novice with this type of thing though.

      1. [2]
        timo
        Link Parent
        Yes! From what I've read, trying to time the market is rarely better than sitting it out. Regarding the amount of money, here are two simple examples. Let's say our expected yearly interest is 3%...

        there's a good amount of data to suggest one such method is riding out the market in the long run by putting that money into an index fund.

        Yes! From what I've read, trying to time the market is rarely better than sitting it out.

        I would just like to put the little money I can save each month to work in a sustainable way.

        Regarding the amount of money, here are two simple examples. Let's say our expected yearly interest is 3% and our investment period is 20 years. These numbers are quite commonly used in examples. Note that these are hypothetical examples. Your actual results may vary.

        1. Our initial (and only) investment is £2000. In 20 years, you will have £3,612.22. Note that we did not add any funds. Just the compound interest working for us. We would have made £1612.22.

        2. Our initial investment is £2000. We add an additional £100 every month. In 20 years, you will have £35,856.67. We've invested a total of £26,000.00, but we've also made £9.857,67.

        Increasing your investment together with compound interest, can greatly increases our returns. That is why I argue that investing £2000 doesn't generate that much (absolute) returns. In our first example, our investment almost doubled. However, our total amount is just £3600, compared to the £26,000 from example 2.

        It also really depends on your situation. If you are not financially able to invest additional funds, definitely don't. And if you just want to use £2000 as something to play with on the stock market, do that. Think about what you really want out of it first.

        Again, these results are purely hypothetical and your mileage may vary. There is always a risk involved when investing.

        Resource for calculating these numbers:
        https://www.investor.gov/additional-resources/free-financial-planning-tools/compound-interest-calculator

        1 vote
        1. milkbones_4_bigelow
          Link Parent
          Hey Timo, Thanks for this. I really appreciate the detail and time you took out of your day to respond. It's probably not said enough, at least I don't say it enough, but I really do appreciate...

          Hey Timo,

          Thanks for this. I really appreciate the detail and time you took out of your day to respond. It's probably not said enough, at least I don't say it enough, but I really do appreciate it, it's not an empty digital platitude. We're complete strangers and you've taken time out of your day to offer up your help and experience. This translates tangibly and that's just awesome. Maybe it's because it's the start of 2020, who knows, but an earnest thanks to you and everyone on Tildes, hell, the entire internet (why not), that takes time out to offer a helping hand, just for the sake of doing so. We live in an awesome age.

          1 vote
  4. [2]
    patience_limited
    Link
    It's sensible to keep a cash or highly liquid emergency fund, but pay off any debts you have if they're at interest rates more costly than market rates of return. In the broader sense, interest on...

    It's sensible to keep a cash or highly liquid emergency fund, but pay off any debts you have if they're at interest rates more costly than market rates of return.

    In the broader sense, interest on debt is just enriching corporations that are generally behaving more odiously than any good you can do by investing in ethical funds.

    1 vote
  5. [5]
    mat
    Link
    Just spend it now before sterling is wrecked at the end of the month. Then at least you'll have some nice stuff to enjoy during the upcoming decade of recession/depression. If you really must save...

    Just spend it now before sterling is wrecked at the end of the month. Then at least you'll have some nice stuff to enjoy during the upcoming decade of recession/depression.

    If you really must save it, I have some money in various funds at Hargreaves Lansdown who are very helpful if you phone them up and can direct you to some safe/profitable/etc places to stash your cash. Don't just buy shares, that's bonkers. That's why investment managers exist.

    1. milkbones_4_bigelow
      Link Parent
      Cheers mat, will give HL a call and have a chat. I'm reticent to spend it, I suppose not growing up with much money will do that. Whatever the case, thanks for responding.

      Cheers mat, will give HL a call and have a chat. I'm reticent to spend it, I suppose not growing up with much money will do that. Whatever the case, thanks for responding.

      1 vote
    2. [3]
      Greg
      Link Parent
      If you're confident the currency is fucked, that seems a good reason to put that money in a nice diverse set of global assets, to convert back into lots more sterling later, no? That's perhaps...

      Just spend it now before sterling is wrecked at the end of the month. Then at least you'll have some nice stuff to enjoy during the upcoming decade of recession/depression.

      If you're confident the currency is fucked, that seems a good reason to put that money in a nice diverse set of global assets, to convert back into lots more sterling later, no?

      Don't just buy shares, that's bonkers. That's why investment managers exist.

      That's perhaps sound advice for individual shares, but index funds beat active management the the vast majority of cases. More than 80% of managers are losing at the three year mark, and it only gets more pronounced over longer timelines.

      1 vote
      1. [2]
        mat
        Link Parent
        "Later" is likely to be a fairly long time in this case. Many consumer goods are going to be very expensive here for a long time once Boris drives the country off a cliff in a few weeks time....

        If you're confident the currency is fucked, that seems a good reason to put that money in a nice diverse set of global assets, to convert back into lots more sterling later, no?

        "Later" is likely to be a fairly long time in this case. Many consumer goods are going to be very expensive here for a long time once Boris drives the country off a cliff in a few weeks time. We'll be lucky to get away with years of recession if not outright depression. If I had a few grand on hand right now, I'd upgrade my shit while it's still affordable to do so (ie, while the UK still has working trade deals with the rest of the world) so at least I can have a nice TV to watch the country go to shit on, and have all my car and home repairs sorted. Five grand isn't going to make the difference between retiring and not retiring, but it can make my medium-term life quite a bit nicer and I suspect we're going to need all the niceness we can get for the next few years.

        index funds beat active management the the vast majority of cases

        Someone puts together those index funds though. That's what I meant by an investment manager. I don't want a portfolio where someone is constantly dicking about buying and selling stuff, which is high-risk and statistically likely to leave me worse off - but I do want one assembled by someone who knows what they're doing. Hargreaves Lansdown aren't one of the biggest and most profitable investment advisors in the country for no reason.

        1. MimicSquid
          Link Parent
          An investment advisor's profitability only matters to the degree that their profitability comes from investing in those same funds. If they recommend funds but get all their profit from the...

          An investment advisor's profitability only matters to the degree that their profitability comes from investing in those same funds. If they recommend funds but get all their profit from the interest from holding cash for so many people, their profitability says nothing about your potential profit.