Here is Tesla's official statement; https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work It seems weird to me that Alameda County would not follow the state's plans when it comes to this.
Keeping the economy moving as best we can and easing the blow of the coming recession is vital. But that aspect of the argument doesn't matter, California has already allowed for manufacturing to...
Except for Tesla's bottom line.
Keeping the economy moving as best we can and easing the blow of the coming recession is vital.
But that aspect of the argument doesn't matter, California has already allowed for manufacturing to start slowly opening back up. California has made the choice that manufacturing is a vital part of their economy that they want to start back up. Both the Governor and Tesla have plans in place to do it safely and slowly.
This is one local government singling out a manufacturer that employees over 50k people in the region, going against the states order and there is no logical reason for it. I think the lawsuit and the threat to move to a different state on Tesla's part is completely justified.
That is simply not true. We need food, clean water, homes, medical supplies, electricity, internet. Those are essentials, roughly in order. Anything that doesn't support one of those isn't,...
Keeping the economy moving as best we can and easing the blow of the coming recession is vital.
That is simply not true. We need food, clean water, homes, medical supplies, electricity, internet. Those are essentials, roughly in order. Anything that doesn't support one of those isn't, especially not during a pandemic.
We don't need televisions. Or cars (outside of repairing existing and building large transport vehicles). Or retail. Or jobs.
Right now, we only need jobs insofar they provide essential services. Going forward we should evaluate why we need so many jobs, and structure our lives so that we can have more liesure and less stress.
I'm fairly certain that with the technology available we could provide for everyone with substantially less 'economy and work.'
It literally is. Your ideal for the future aside, that's just now how things work. What you are listing are essentials for the survival of humanity on a basic level, what we are looking at now is...
That is simply not true.
It literally is.
Your ideal for the future aside, that's just now how things work. What you are listing are essentials for the survival of humanity on a basic level, what we are looking at now is the survival of our society and nation.
We are past peak in the US now and states are starting to procedurally reopen. Your (and mine, and anyone's) personal opinion topic is inconsequential, it's already happening. The focus on basic essentials is past, we are now looking to stablazing things. Stabilizing the economy is the next goal so that the we can either avoid or soften the recession that is coming. The goal the nation is working towards now is a return to normalcy.
Some states are almost fully reopened at this point (not saying Texas and Florida are making good choices).
You are welcome to have an optimist view of what a utopian future could look like coming out of all of this, but I do not think that will be the reality. The country will return to mostly the same as it was before. What you are saying is a great idea in concept, but it is very naive to think even a small part of it is going to actually happen.
Sure, never said we were not going to get hit again, and I am not the one that has decided to have states start reopening. We can toss around our opinions on the subject all we want but ultimately...
Sure, never said we were not going to get hit again, and I am not the one that has decided to have states start reopening. We can toss around our opinions on the subject all we want but ultimately it's never going to be our choice to make and it's already happening.
The first step is to unify people behind a vision, to collectively agree 'Hey, we don't need to live like this anymore.' I am not laying down mandates, I am laying out possibilities. Perhaps we...
The first step is to unify people behind a vision, to collectively agree 'Hey, we don't need to live like this anymore.' I am not laying down mandates, I am laying out possibilities.
Perhaps we don't need to jump right into my vision. But instantly dismissing it as 'well we need to get back to the daily grind because without the economy we're all doomed' is demonstrably not true, given how long we've been without it thus far.
Full reopening will kill people. This is a fact, because while the situation as hit 'less bad,' it's not exactly solved. We're going to see a massive second wave with this 'reopening.' During a crisis, basic human needs (which I feel the need to remind people: these things weren't being provided for everybody before) are far more important than any other aspect of our prior lives.
A re-opening should focus on insuring necessities for life are sustainable. After that, permit local communities to lift restrictions slowly so people can start getting over the crippling isolation. Then perhaps, we can talk face to face and perhaps evaluate why this crisis happened, and how we can work towards a better future. The primary job of a nation is to have people be healthy and happy. If we, the people in that nation, are not healthy or happy, then what good is the nation? The same question can and should be asked of society as a whole.
The survival of a nation or society is unimportant. Nations and societies come and go with the passage of time. People's lives are important, and the more people who survive, the better. We can reform society and a nation if needed afterwards, perhaps shedding our outdated values and replacing them with new ones.
Or you know, we can get back to the daily grind ASAP so that the folks are so burned out and tired that they can't think of ways to make their lives better.
If the economy collapses, so does the food supply chain. Everything in our economy is interconnected. If one industry fails to put out product, it has a ripple effect throughout the entire...
If the economy collapses, so does the food supply chain. Everything in our economy is interconnected. If one industry fails to put out product, it has a ripple effect throughout the entire economy. Some of it can be shut down, for a couple of months, and kept alive with helicopter money, but it is not in any way shape or form sustainable for an extended period of time.
This not "going against the states order" because the state does allow stricter local regulations. They are forum-shopping, hoping that that a judge will do something so they don't have to...
This not "going against the states order" because the state does allow stricter local regulations. They are forum-shopping, hoping that that a judge will do something so they don't have to negotiate with local officials. I'd also caution against taking Tesla's word for how negotiations are going, since they are not a reliable narrator.
There's little info on this, but it seems they might be negotiating over how reopening can happen?
From what I understand (take this with a grain of salt because my only source is reddit) the state gave Tesla the go ahead to start slowly reopening, so they did. Not all of their operations are...
From what I understand (take this with a grain of salt because my only source is reddit) the state gave Tesla the go ahead to start slowly reopening, so they did. Not all of their operations are in this county, only the one plant.
Granted, with Elon who knows what actually is going on, I like him but he definitely functions in a very different reality than the rest of us.
You've probably noticed that Musk has trouble respecting legal authority (for example, the SEC). More than that - he's contemptuous of it. I think he also doesn't respect the authority of the...
You've probably noticed that Musk has trouble respecting legal authority (for example, the SEC). More than that - he's contemptuous of it. I think he also doesn't respect the authority of the county health department to shut the factory down. This translates into legal strategy where they try to say that the state allows it, and they go to federal court to argue against it. (Federal because they're not really getting much traction with the state; so far I haven't seen Newsom or the state assembly overriding local health departments that want to be more strict. It's more the other way around, some California counties are nearly rebelling against state authority because they want to reopen.)
I haven't looked at the particular legal arguments that Tesla is using and I would guess that Tesla's lawyers have somewhat more respect for the law than Musk does, but they're going to argue their client's case using whatever loophole they can find.
An alternate strategy might be to concede that Alameda county does have authority to regulate health within the county and negotiate some face-saving compromise where they are allowed to at least partially open with restrictions that satisfy the regulators that workers are being protected. This really isn't Musk's style, though.
I don't know what the Alameda county officials are thinking or about their negotiating tactics, though. How reasonable or unreasonable are they? This is where a lack of local newspapers with reporters with deep relationships with people in local governments really hurts us. The journalism we get is from reporters who are pretty far away.
There is an East Bay Times article. Apparently they called up and asked the county for their side of things but didn't get much, other than an official statement that they are being reasonable.
Followup: the Interim Health Officer for Alameda County is Dr. Erica Pan and here is her Linkedin Profile. Apparently she has been Deputy Health Officer since 2011 and Interim Health Officer since July 2018. It would be interesting to know why that they had trouble filling that vacancy? I haven't listened to this interview with local radio April 30, but maybe it's interesting?
The county has been clear that it isn’t letting the plant open yet. And as a matter of legal principle, there’s no reason that the county can’t be more restrictive than the state, unless the state says it can’t be — which it has not done.
In an attempt to deal with this problem, the lawsuit throws in some kitchen-sink style constitutional arguments. It says the county order doesn’t satisfy due process, which is plainly wrong. It says the order discriminates, because another county is allowing car manufacturing — but this is not discrimination, because different counties might reasonably interpret the governor’s order differently. And it says the county order contradicts general state laws — which it does not, in fact, appear to do.
Here is Tesla's official statement;
https://www.tesla.com/blog/getting-back-work
It seems weird to me that Alameda County would not follow the state's plans when it comes to this.
There is still nothing "vital" about making new cars. Except for Tesla's bottom line.
Keeping the economy moving as best we can and easing the blow of the coming recession is vital.
But that aspect of the argument doesn't matter, California has already allowed for manufacturing to start slowly opening back up. California has made the choice that manufacturing is a vital part of their economy that they want to start back up. Both the Governor and Tesla have plans in place to do it safely and slowly.
This is one local government singling out a manufacturer that employees over 50k people in the region, going against the states order and there is no logical reason for it. I think the lawsuit and the threat to move to a different state on Tesla's part is completely justified.
That is simply not true. We need food, clean water, homes, medical supplies, electricity, internet. Those are essentials, roughly in order. Anything that doesn't support one of those isn't, especially not during a pandemic.
We don't need televisions. Or cars (outside of repairing existing and building large transport vehicles). Or retail. Or jobs.
Right now, we only need jobs insofar they provide essential services. Going forward we should evaluate why we need so many jobs, and structure our lives so that we can have more liesure and less stress.
I'm fairly certain that with the technology available we could provide for everyone with substantially less 'economy and work.'
It literally is.
Your ideal for the future aside, that's just now how things work. What you are listing are essentials for the survival of humanity on a basic level, what we are looking at now is the survival of our society and nation.
We are past peak in the US now and states are starting to procedurally reopen. Your (and mine, and anyone's) personal opinion topic is inconsequential, it's already happening. The focus on basic essentials is past, we are now looking to stablazing things. Stabilizing the economy is the next goal so that the we can either avoid or soften the recession that is coming. The goal the nation is working towards now is a return to normalcy.
Some states are almost fully reopened at this point (not saying Texas and Florida are making good choices).
You are welcome to have an optimist view of what a utopian future could look like coming out of all of this, but I do not think that will be the reality. The country will return to mostly the same as it was before. What you are saying is a great idea in concept, but it is very naive to think even a small part of it is going to actually happen.
I mean, this is a pretty optimistic view in and of itself...
Sure, never said we were not going to get hit again, and I am not the one that has decided to have states start reopening. We can toss around our opinions on the subject all we want but ultimately it's never going to be our choice to make and it's already happening.
The first step is to unify people behind a vision, to collectively agree 'Hey, we don't need to live like this anymore.' I am not laying down mandates, I am laying out possibilities.
Perhaps we don't need to jump right into my vision. But instantly dismissing it as 'well we need to get back to the daily grind because without the economy we're all doomed' is demonstrably not true, given how long we've been without it thus far.
Full reopening will kill people. This is a fact, because while the situation as hit 'less bad,' it's not exactly solved. We're going to see a massive second wave with this 'reopening.' During a crisis, basic human needs (which I feel the need to remind people: these things weren't being provided for everybody before) are far more important than any other aspect of our prior lives.
A re-opening should focus on insuring necessities for life are sustainable. After that, permit local communities to lift restrictions slowly so people can start getting over the crippling isolation. Then perhaps, we can talk face to face and perhaps evaluate why this crisis happened, and how we can work towards a better future. The primary job of a nation is to have people be healthy and happy. If we, the people in that nation, are not healthy or happy, then what good is the nation? The same question can and should be asked of society as a whole.
The survival of a nation or society is unimportant. Nations and societies come and go with the passage of time. People's lives are important, and the more people who survive, the better. We can reform society and a nation if needed afterwards, perhaps shedding our outdated values and replacing them with new ones.
Or you know, we can get back to the daily grind ASAP so that the folks are so burned out and tired that they can't think of ways to make their lives better.
If the economy collapses, so does the food supply chain. Everything in our economy is interconnected. If one industry fails to put out product, it has a ripple effect throughout the entire economy. Some of it can be shut down, for a couple of months, and kept alive with helicopter money, but it is not in any way shape or form sustainable for an extended period of time.
This not "going against the states order" because the state does allow stricter local regulations. They are forum-shopping, hoping that that a judge will do something so they don't have to negotiate with local officials. I'd also caution against taking Tesla's word for how negotiations are going, since they are not a reliable narrator.
There's little info on this, but it seems they might be negotiating over how reopening can happen?
From what I understand (take this with a grain of salt because my only source is reddit) the state gave Tesla the go ahead to start slowly reopening, so they did. Not all of their operations are in this county, only the one plant.
Granted, with Elon who knows what actually is going on, I like him but he definitely functions in a very different reality than the rest of us.
You've probably noticed that Musk has trouble respecting legal authority (for example, the SEC). More than that - he's contemptuous of it. I think he also doesn't respect the authority of the county health department to shut the factory down. This translates into legal strategy where they try to say that the state allows it, and they go to federal court to argue against it. (Federal because they're not really getting much traction with the state; so far I haven't seen Newsom or the state assembly overriding local health departments that want to be more strict. It's more the other way around, some California counties are nearly rebelling against state authority because they want to reopen.)
I haven't looked at the particular legal arguments that Tesla is using and I would guess that Tesla's lawyers have somewhat more respect for the law than Musk does, but they're going to argue their client's case using whatever loophole they can find.
An alternate strategy might be to concede that Alameda county does have authority to regulate health within the county and negotiate some face-saving compromise where they are allowed to at least partially open with restrictions that satisfy the regulators that workers are being protected. This really isn't Musk's style, though.
I don't know what the Alameda county officials are thinking or about their negotiating tactics, though. How reasonable or unreasonable are they? This is where a lack of local newspapers with reporters with deep relationships with people in local governments really hurts us. The journalism we get is from reporters who are pretty far away.
There is an East Bay Times article. Apparently they called up and asked the county for their side of things but didn't get much, other than an official statement that they are being reasonable.
Followup: the Interim Health Officer for Alameda County is Dr. Erica Pan and here is her Linkedin Profile. Apparently she has been Deputy Health Officer since 2011 and Interim Health Officer since July 2018. It would be interesting to know why that they had trouble filling that vacancy? I haven't listened to this interview with local radio April 30, but maybe it's interesting?
This argument can put every single person out of the house to work, since every single job can contribute to the economy.
Tesla's Reopening Lawsuit Doesn't Make Sense