I've been running an Epic level game, and that of course requires some Epic bad guys that can challenge a group of many Epic level characters. This is the character sheet I've put together for...
I've been running an Epic level game, and that of course requires some Epic bad guys that can challenge a group of many Epic level characters. This is the character sheet I've put together for Rhynn Kwll, the man behind Vecna. Just to see how high and how far we can push the rules, really. Now that I know what the top of the power curve looks like, it's easier to model encounters and manage the group's own powers and abilities. I figured some folks might get a kick out of it.
What's your (or any, really) strategy for balancing Eric encounters? What is the gameplay generally like? It seems like it would be really bogged down in a series of "oh but I counter that with my...
What's your (or any, really) strategy for balancing Eric encounters? What is the gameplay generally like? It seems like it would be really bogged down in a series of "oh but I counter that with my ____" until someone gets one-shot.
I've never played an epic level game, though at one point due to the Deck of Many Things, my character jumped to level 10 and the DM didn't really know what to do after that since everyone else was still level 5 or so (we started a new campaign shortly after).
It's honestly not that different from normal play, except that the numbers are bigger and characters tend to be much more mobile. Balancing encounters comes down to one thing only in the end:...
Exemplary
It's honestly not that different from normal play, except that the numbers are bigger and characters tend to be much more mobile. Balancing encounters comes down to one thing only in the end: Action economy. Sure, you might have five hundred tricks on your sheet, but you still have to deal with having only an action, bonus action, movement, and reaction available. It's not what you've got, it's how smartly you use it that counts, and you can only do one or two things at a time.
If the villain can do two things, and there are six players that can also do two things, the villain is outnumbered on actions by six to one. Encounters typically go in favor of whichever side has the most actions available as long as both sides have similar levels of power. That's what makes legendary actions so powerful, since the villain with five of them can take five more actions of his choice, and not just on his turn, but after any other action taken by anyone. Those legendary actions are the great equalizer.
When I want encounters to be challenging, I just toss some legendary saves, actions, hit points, and unique abilities that fit the flavor on the creatures that are being fought. What's in the monster manual is basically a template, so I start with that and then kick it up a couple of notches on the fly. I also tend to lean away from direct boss battle style encounters - it's more interesting if the players have another agenda besides killing everything in the room. Epic games can get boring (for the GM as well) if it's just one big boss beatdown after another.
For example, we were running a gladiatorial battle in an arena with 2v2 (two of the players and some NPCs). The challenge there wasn't just beating the other guys down, but performing for the crowd, so I was encouraging the players to use their acrobatics, athletics, metamagics, performance and other skills to put on a show.
While this was happening, there was an incident where rather a lot of tough creatures used in some of the arena games escaped from their containment nearby. When those creatures rolled up on the players in the middle of the arena fight, the goal wasn't to kill them (which would have been easy), it was to protect the crowd and then try to round up these creatures before they killed people or wrecked parts of the city or even got themselves killed in dangerous parts of the undercity.
One does need a world that's built for this stuff, which is why these games tend to get into planar adventures, spelljamming, and campaign settings like Oathbound or Sigil or The Astromundi Cluster or The Nexus. Those settings make sense of why everything is more powerful and provide the framework.
If Epic level characters are hassling normal folks and wrecking a campaign world, that's what Gods are for (like Rhynn here). It's not uncommon for Epic characters to be on a first name basis with Gods, since their ranks are precisely the place pantheons will recruit new demigods from. Gods are much more likely to show up and put a stop to something that's wrecking their neighborhood if they know it requires their powers to put a stop to it - and they won't be happy with the players. They effectively take the place of the town guard. All of them can sense epic magic across their realms, so players have to understand that keeping a low profile keeps the gods out of their business.
I have a little one-minute hourglass to make sure players finish their rounds promptly. I don't always use it, but if people are getting bogged down in the morass of choices they have, I'll use it to put the pressure on and keep the combat moving quickly and if it runs out before they decide, they will lose their actions.
We do use some phone-based tools for rolling damage, though. The dice start to pile up fast past level fifteen, and the simple act of rolling 2d12+10d6+7d8+20 for damage eats up a lot of time when the player has five of those attacks per action. For most parts of a fight we use the tools to get the rolls out of the way faster. When it's a kill shot or other important story moment that's when we do the real dice rolls.
There's also a section in the Epic Legacy book that primes players for playing epic games - there's a mindset that includes respecting the game world, and for these games to work you really need everyone on the same page before the game starts. It does take a rather skilled player to make the most out of an epic character because there are so many abilities. It's hard to keep track of them all, unless you've been playing D&D for decades, which many in this group have.
I know precisely one player who could use this sheet for Vecna to its full potential. He's been playing wizards almost exclusively for four decades, though, so he has the entire spellbook in his head. It's certainly not the sort of thing you want to drop on brand new players.
Out of curiosity: how long do your turns take? I feel like it would take me a week just to have a vague understanding of all the abilities on the sheet. One round of combat at this level has gotta...
Out of curiosity: how long do your turns take?
I feel like it would take me a week just to have a vague understanding of all the abilities on the sheet. One round of combat at this level has gotta be like an hour long 😝
We usually play with 5-8 people so it's even worse than you might expect. I use a minute-long hourglass to streamline the combat - one minute per player per turn to settle on the actions and then...
We usually play with 5-8 people so it's even worse than you might expect. I use a minute-long hourglass to streamline the combat - one minute per player per turn to settle on the actions and then we resolve them. Using android apps like Dicebag helps cut down on the dice rolling and time it takes to add all of that up - the dice themselves are by far the worst time sink in the combat.
Most combats tend to finish very fast, though - one to three rounds and the fight's over thanks to the high DPS and the large number of abilities. Only the epic combats with epic monsters tend to go longer, but that's the fun of fighting the big bads in the first place. I'd say most combats take less than an hour, and the epic boss fights might get up to two hours at worst.
I've been running an Epic level game, and that of course requires some Epic bad guys that can challenge a group of many Epic level characters. This is the character sheet I've put together for Rhynn Kwll, the man behind Vecna. Just to see how high and how far we can push the rules, really. Now that I know what the top of the power curve looks like, it's easier to model encounters and manage the group's own powers and abilities. I figured some folks might get a kick out of it.
What's your (or any, really) strategy for balancing Eric encounters? What is the gameplay generally like? It seems like it would be really bogged down in a series of "oh but I counter that with my ____" until someone gets one-shot.
I've never played an epic level game, though at one point due to the Deck of Many Things, my character jumped to level 10 and the DM didn't really know what to do after that since everyone else was still level 5 or so (we started a new campaign shortly after).
It's honestly not that different from normal play, except that the numbers are bigger and characters tend to be much more mobile. Balancing encounters comes down to one thing only in the end: Action economy. Sure, you might have five hundred tricks on your sheet, but you still have to deal with having only an action, bonus action, movement, and reaction available. It's not what you've got, it's how smartly you use it that counts, and you can only do one or two things at a time.
If the villain can do two things, and there are six players that can also do two things, the villain is outnumbered on actions by six to one. Encounters typically go in favor of whichever side has the most actions available as long as both sides have similar levels of power. That's what makes legendary actions so powerful, since the villain with five of them can take five more actions of his choice, and not just on his turn, but after any other action taken by anyone. Those legendary actions are the great equalizer.
When I want encounters to be challenging, I just toss some legendary saves, actions, hit points, and unique abilities that fit the flavor on the creatures that are being fought. What's in the monster manual is basically a template, so I start with that and then kick it up a couple of notches on the fly. I also tend to lean away from direct boss battle style encounters - it's more interesting if the players have another agenda besides killing everything in the room. Epic games can get boring (for the GM as well) if it's just one big boss beatdown after another.
For example, we were running a gladiatorial battle in an arena with 2v2 (two of the players and some NPCs). The challenge there wasn't just beating the other guys down, but performing for the crowd, so I was encouraging the players to use their acrobatics, athletics, metamagics, performance and other skills to put on a show.
While this was happening, there was an incident where rather a lot of tough creatures used in some of the arena games escaped from their containment nearby. When those creatures rolled up on the players in the middle of the arena fight, the goal wasn't to kill them (which would have been easy), it was to protect the crowd and then try to round up these creatures before they killed people or wrecked parts of the city or even got themselves killed in dangerous parts of the undercity.
One does need a world that's built for this stuff, which is why these games tend to get into planar adventures, spelljamming, and campaign settings like Oathbound or Sigil or The Astromundi Cluster or The Nexus. Those settings make sense of why everything is more powerful and provide the framework.
If Epic level characters are hassling normal folks and wrecking a campaign world, that's what Gods are for (like Rhynn here). It's not uncommon for Epic characters to be on a first name basis with Gods, since their ranks are precisely the place pantheons will recruit new demigods from. Gods are much more likely to show up and put a stop to something that's wrecking their neighborhood if they know it requires their powers to put a stop to it - and they won't be happy with the players. They effectively take the place of the town guard. All of them can sense epic magic across their realms, so players have to understand that keeping a low profile keeps the gods out of their business.
I have a little one-minute hourglass to make sure players finish their rounds promptly. I don't always use it, but if people are getting bogged down in the morass of choices they have, I'll use it to put the pressure on and keep the combat moving quickly and if it runs out before they decide, they will lose their actions.
We do use some phone-based tools for rolling damage, though. The dice start to pile up fast past level fifteen, and the simple act of rolling 2d12+10d6+7d8+20 for damage eats up a lot of time when the player has five of those attacks per action. For most parts of a fight we use the tools to get the rolls out of the way faster. When it's a kill shot or other important story moment that's when we do the real dice rolls.
There's also a section in the Epic Legacy book that primes players for playing epic games - there's a mindset that includes respecting the game world, and for these games to work you really need everyone on the same page before the game starts. It does take a rather skilled player to make the most out of an epic character because there are so many abilities. It's hard to keep track of them all, unless you've been playing D&D for decades, which many in this group have.
I know precisely one player who could use this sheet for Vecna to its full potential. He's been playing wizards almost exclusively for four decades, though, so he has the entire spellbook in his head. It's certainly not the sort of thing you want to drop on brand new players.
Out of curiosity: how long do your turns take?
I feel like it would take me a week just to have a vague understanding of all the abilities on the sheet. One round of combat at this level has gotta be like an hour long 😝
We usually play with 5-8 people so it's even worse than you might expect. I use a minute-long hourglass to streamline the combat - one minute per player per turn to settle on the actions and then we resolve them. Using android apps like Dicebag helps cut down on the dice rolling and time it takes to add all of that up - the dice themselves are by far the worst time sink in the combat.
Most combats tend to finish very fast, though - one to three rounds and the fight's over thanks to the high DPS and the large number of abilities. Only the epic combats with epic monsters tend to go longer, but that's the fun of fighting the big bads in the first place. I'd say most combats take less than an hour, and the epic boss fights might get up to two hours at worst.