The Satanic Temple, a political activist group known for protesting religious symbolism in public spaces, has announced that it will be opening a free abortion clinic in New Mexico offering prescriptions for drugs that cause abortion.
“TST is proud to expand reproductive options for our members. This is just the beginning,” said Erin Helian, executive director of campaign operations for the group. “We will remain steadfast as we continue the fight to uphold reproductive justice in the United States.”
Abortion is legal up to the point of birth in New Mexico, except in the cities of Clovis and Hobbs, which passed laws banning abortion following the overturning of Roe v. Wade. TST’s move is seen as an attempt to counter any restrictions on abortion in the state.
TST Health has named the facility “The Samuel Alito’s Mom’s Satanic Abortion Clinic.” Prior to 1973, doctors who performed abortions could lose their licenses and go to jail. In 1950, Samuel Alito’s mother did not have options. The clinic’s name serves to remind people just how important it is to have the right to control one’s body and the potential ramifications of losing that right.
I don't know what to think of TST, to be honest (no issue with the Satanic part, just... the history of the organization and its leaders). Some former members (calling themselves Queer Satanic...
I don't know what to think of TST, to be honest (no issue with the Satanic part, just... the history of the organization and its leaders). Some former members (calling themselves Queer Satanic collectively, you may have encountered their FB meme groups) have accused and seem to have provided some proof of some unsavory behavior by one of the co-founders (their site is https://queersatanic.com/). They are being sued by TST for a number of things, though TST has so far not fared well in court
I don't know anything about their internal drama, but as the article mentions, TST is essentially just a political activist group, and their efforts are intentionally designed to draw as much...
I don't know anything about their internal drama, but as the article mentions, TST is essentially just a political activist group, and their efforts are intentionally designed to draw as much attention as possible to violations of the first amendment, and separation of church and state. E.g. When the Arkansas State legislature approved a Ten Commandments monument to be built and displayed on the Capitol grounds, TST showed up with a giant bronze statue of Baphomet and demanded it also be similarly displayed. And as a direct result of the Baphomet statue being rejected by the State, the ACLU and a bunch of other legal non-profits got involved, and are now fighting against the Ten Commandments monument.
So despite whatever over-the-top nonsense TST are saying to the media to draw attention to themselves and the abortion issue, I very very much doubt they're are actually planning on opening up an abortion clinic. IMO they likely just want to force a rejection by the State of any applications they put forth so that another, more well-equipped legal nonprofit (like the ACLU) can then persue a legal case against New Mexico.
And given that their previous efforts have actually been reasonably effective at forcing legal actions (even if the actions themselves have ultimately failed, or are still unresolved), I don't quite understand QS's framing of things, with them acting as if TST were ever really serious about providing abortions. Nor do I understand them claiming that TST is a cult and comparing them to scientology, because AFAIK they don't actually worship Satan, aren't really a religion, and have always been very clear about that.
Edit: However, I would be more than open to being proven wrong though. If TST really are shady, and being run by genuine scumbags, I would definitely like to know about it. But all the articles I read on QS's site so far don't seem particularly convincing, though they admittedly do open up some questions I would like to see someone slightly more credible (and not directly involved) take a serious stab at investigating.
Yeah, I am aware of TST's activism and have even been drawn to them in the past (in a positive way), which is why finding other information caused me to become distraught and why I bring up QS in...
Yeah, I am aware of TST's activism and have even been drawn to them in the past (in a positive way), which is why finding other information caused me to become distraught and why I bring up QS in discussions about TST because I am wary of providing support to what at first seems like an organization doing some good effective activist work.
QS's cult claims are a bit strange to me, but I haven't dug into those in detail. Regarding providing abortions- QS never said they would provide them. TST and tons of social media buzz went around for a while, claiming that some TST "ritual" could help people get around state restrictions, that's what they were taking issue with- that and- that first article I linked in my original post has tons of secondary links- many of them stories of people that have left TST over various issues.
Regardless, the main things that gave me pause and made me take a second look at whether I should support TST as an organization were QS's claims of TST leaders' connections to Milo Yiannopolous, Mike Cernovich, and Marc Randazza, along with the pursuit of writing a "Might is Right" book with Shane Bugbee (This extremely long article goes into quite a bit of detail on these connections and plenty of supposed evidence of antisemitism, pro-eugenics views, etc. https://queersatanic.com/why-you-havent-left-the-satanic-temple/).
Who knows, maybe they fabricated all of this, but that sure seems unlikely to me. When it comes to splits/rifts in organizations it can be tough to figure out who to believe, but when I see multiple "here's why I left" stories, and those that are public about it have banded together under LGBTQ+ and anti-fascist banners- I tend to lend my credibility toward their direction, with the caveat that I don't know for sure
Thanks for posting this. I was honestly unaware and while I knew that TST was mostly a political activist group/legal troll, which I support, some of the things that QS brings up are concerning...
Thanks for posting this. I was honestly unaware and while I knew that TST was mostly a political activist group/legal troll, which I support, some of the things that QS brings up are concerning even if they really lack the communication skills to express it in a remotely digestible manner.
It appears the trend of everyone-in-a-position-of-power-is-some-form-of-asshole rings true.
Also worth considering Arshan's additional perspective which has since been posted here. I don't want to "threadcrap", unnecessarily bring drama to a tildes post, or accidentally suppress the...
Also worth considering Arshan's additional perspective which has since been posted here. I don't want to "threadcrap", unnecessarily bring drama to a tildes post, or accidentally suppress the spread of information about TST (in the case that they are indeed fine and that QS's info is fabricated) so hopefully my initial post is not viewed in that regard.
I hope that TST is found to be clear of a lot of these claims because I support their activism that is effective (such as challenges to 10 Commandments / special treatment of religions) and the idea of non-supernatural (atheistic?) satanism in general as an adversarial force to help reign in the constant overstepping of boundaries and special treatment that politically-motivated conservative Christianity has in US politics and society.
As a satanist and a nominal member of TST, I would be somewhat happy to answer some of these questions. I say somewhat because I hear them all the time and I am tired of them. But I trust tildes...
As a satanist and a nominal member of TST, I would be somewhat happy to answer some of these questions. I say somewhat because I hear them all the time and I am tired of them. But I trust tildes users to at least be respectful.
Satanism is a religion. You don't decide what is and isn't someone else's religion.
Ugh, Queer Satanic Memes (QSM). They are 4 members of the Washington chapter of TST that changed the passwords for that chapter's facebook page. For whatever reason, TST chapters mainly use Facebook for communication, so a bit more of a thing then for many organizations. They refused to return the page and have excused TST of a myriad of things; TST is suing them to get back access tobthe page. I honestly don't know all of them, but some of the big ones are one of the founder's stealing money, of TST being filled with secret nazis and TST silencing discourse on its supposed myriad of sins. None of those claims are backed up with evidence in QSM's own articles; they just throw in dozens of links that don't actually support their arguements, but few people have the time and energy to parse through all the links and their poor writing. I will also include that one of the 4 members is charged with repeated domestic violence; as the victim requested privacy, I will say no more on it, but only include my source. For those interested in a deeper dive, this comment thread, I know its an annoying format and is long but its the best response I've seen. Either way, I very much consider QSM an unreliable source. However, if I found out that TST was doing fucked up shit, I would leave it in a minute. My satanic beliefs are not perscribed by TST, but are held on their own merits.
Yes, TST hasn't had a resounding legal victory. Many cases are on going, the last one I heard about was in Boston. There are a not small number of out of court victories, where governments ended forced christian prayers to avoid letting a satanist in. Personally, I think this proves the point of TST; minority religions are not beimg treated equally by the US government.
As to the content of the article, I hope it succeeds; bodily autonomy is one of my most deeply held beliefs.
I appreciate your context to this situation. You're right in that it's so much information to parse that it becomes very difficult to absorb what is actually going on. I want to be clear that I...
I appreciate your context to this situation. You're right in that it's so much information to parse that it becomes very difficult to absorb what is actually going on. I want to be clear that I don't have a concrete stance on where I stand on TST and have wavered back and forth based on finding information going either way.
That comment thread looks very thorough so I will definitely read that to get some additional information too.
I almost feel kinda bad about bringing QS into this if all of their claims are false and they are really pretending to be a lot of things they're not- hopefully my posts made it clear that I felt this information was relevant to the topic- but that I was not trying to "be a mouthpiece for QS". But, if there's any place I felt a good discussion on this would happen, it's here at tildes- and your post and others' posts prove that to be the case. I love this place. :)
Addendum: I read the full comment thread posted, and have to admit, the rebuttals and information from TST's angle seem far more thorough, reasonable, and, above all, actually readable.
Addendum: I read the full comment thread posted, and have to admit, the rebuttals and information from TST's angle seem far more thorough, reasonable, and, above all, actually readable.
Thank you for the insight/link. I spent several hours trying to decipher QS' posts and it was exhausting to the point that I did not check other sources to verify their statements (when they had...
Thank you for the insight/link. I spent several hours trying to decipher QS' posts and it was exhausting to the point that I did not check other sources to verify their statements (when they had sources at all).
As is usually the case, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of the two parties involved.
That's exactly how I felt reading QS' posts too, although you just expressed it better than me. It was overwhelming, almost felt intentionally so, and also seemingly was without much concrete...
That's exactly how I felt reading QS' posts too, although you just expressed it better than me. It was overwhelming, almost felt intentionally so, and also seemingly was without much concrete evidence to back it up. And, as a result, my skeptic instincts kicked in and I immediately thought of various conspiracy theory rants I've read over the years. That's why I said they didn't seem particularly convincing, but I would like to see someone more credible investigate the accusations that did seem like they might have a ring of truth the them.
Per TST's website about the clinic:
I don't know what to think of TST, to be honest (no issue with the Satanic part, just... the history of the organization and its leaders). Some former members (calling themselves Queer Satanic collectively, you may have encountered their FB meme groups) have accused and seem to have provided some proof of some unsavory behavior by one of the co-founders (their site is https://queersatanic.com/). They are being sued by TST for a number of things, though TST has so far not fared well in court
TST has previously claimed ways that people could use them to help get abortion services, seems like that could be false? (https://queersatanic.com/the-satanic-temple-cannot-help-you-get-an-abortion-and-it-does-not-deserve-your-support/) However, them opening their own clinic at least means maybe they're doing something effective this time.
I don't know anything about their internal drama, but as the article mentions, TST is essentially just a political activist group, and their efforts are intentionally designed to draw as much attention as possible to violations of the first amendment, and separation of church and state. E.g. When the Arkansas State legislature approved a Ten Commandments monument to be built and displayed on the Capitol grounds, TST showed up with a giant bronze statue of Baphomet and demanded it also be similarly displayed. And as a direct result of the Baphomet statue being rejected by the State, the ACLU and a bunch of other legal non-profits got involved, and are now fighting against the Ten Commandments monument.
So despite whatever over-the-top nonsense TST are saying to the media to draw attention to themselves and the abortion issue, I very very much doubt they're are actually planning on opening up an abortion clinic. IMO they likely just want to force a rejection by the State of any applications they put forth so that another, more well-equipped legal nonprofit (like the ACLU) can then persue a legal case against New Mexico.
And given that their previous efforts have actually been reasonably effective at forcing legal actions (even if the actions themselves have ultimately failed, or are still unresolved), I don't quite understand QS's framing of things, with them acting as if TST were ever really serious about providing abortions. Nor do I understand them claiming that TST is a cult and comparing them to scientology, because AFAIK they don't actually worship Satan, aren't really a religion, and have always been very clear about that.
Edit: However, I would be more than open to being proven wrong though. If TST really are shady, and being run by genuine scumbags, I would definitely like to know about it. But all the articles I read on QS's site so far don't seem particularly convincing, though they admittedly do open up some questions I would like to see someone slightly more credible (and not directly involved) take a serious stab at investigating.
Edited again to remove the full name of the QS group due to someone on reddit alleging they have previously cyberstalked others that have criticized them.
Yeah, I am aware of TST's activism and have even been drawn to them in the past (in a positive way), which is why finding other information caused me to become distraught and why I bring up QS in discussions about TST because I am wary of providing support to what at first seems like an organization doing some good effective activist work.
QS's cult claims are a bit strange to me, but I haven't dug into those in detail. Regarding providing abortions- QS never said they would provide them. TST and tons of social media buzz went around for a while, claiming that some TST "ritual" could help people get around state restrictions, that's what they were taking issue with- that and- that first article I linked in my original post has tons of secondary links- many of them stories of people that have left TST over various issues.
Regardless, the main things that gave me pause and made me take a second look at whether I should support TST as an organization were QS's claims of TST leaders' connections to Milo Yiannopolous, Mike Cernovich, and Marc Randazza, along with the pursuit of writing a "Might is Right" book with Shane Bugbee (This extremely long article goes into quite a bit of detail on these connections and plenty of supposed evidence of antisemitism, pro-eugenics views, etc. https://queersatanic.com/why-you-havent-left-the-satanic-temple/).
Who knows, maybe they fabricated all of this, but that sure seems unlikely to me. When it comes to splits/rifts in organizations it can be tough to figure out who to believe, but when I see multiple "here's why I left" stories, and those that are public about it have banded together under LGBTQ+ and anti-fascist banners- I tend to lend my credibility toward their direction, with the caveat that I don't know for sure
Thanks for posting this. I was honestly unaware and while I knew that TST was mostly a political activist group/legal troll, which I support, some of the things that QS brings up are concerning even if they really lack the communication skills to express it in a remotely digestible manner.
It appears the trend of everyone-in-a-position-of-power-is-some-form-of-asshole rings true.
Also worth considering Arshan's additional perspective which has since been posted here. I don't want to "threadcrap", unnecessarily bring drama to a tildes post, or accidentally suppress the spread of information about TST (in the case that they are indeed fine and that QS's info is fabricated) so hopefully my initial post is not viewed in that regard.
I hope that TST is found to be clear of a lot of these claims because I support their activism that is effective (such as challenges to 10 Commandments / special treatment of religions) and the idea of non-supernatural (atheistic?) satanism in general as an adversarial force to help reign in the constant overstepping of boundaries and special treatment that politically-motivated conservative Christianity has in US politics and society.
As a satanist and a nominal member of TST, I would be somewhat happy to answer some of these questions. I say somewhat because I hear them all the time and I am tired of them. But I trust tildes users to at least be respectful.
Satanism is a religion. You don't decide what is and isn't someone else's religion.
Ugh, Queer Satanic Memes (QSM). They are 4 members of the Washington chapter of TST that changed the passwords for that chapter's facebook page. For whatever reason, TST chapters mainly use Facebook for communication, so a bit more of a thing then for many organizations. They refused to return the page and have excused TST of a myriad of things; TST is suing them to get back access tobthe page. I honestly don't know all of them, but some of the big ones are one of the founder's stealing money, of TST being filled with secret nazis and TST silencing discourse on its supposed myriad of sins. None of those claims are backed up with evidence in QSM's own articles; they just throw in dozens of links that don't actually support their arguements, but few people have the time and energy to parse through all the links and their poor writing. I will also include that one of the 4 members is charged with repeated domestic violence; as the victim requested privacy, I will say no more on it, but only include my source. For those interested in a deeper dive, this comment thread, I know its an annoying format and is long but its the best response I've seen. Either way, I very much consider QSM an unreliable source. However, if I found out that TST was doing fucked up shit, I would leave it in a minute. My satanic beliefs are not perscribed by TST, but are held on their own merits.
Yes, TST hasn't had a resounding legal victory. Many cases are on going, the last one I heard about was in Boston. There are a not small number of out of court victories, where governments ended forced christian prayers to avoid letting a satanist in. Personally, I think this proves the point of TST; minority religions are not beimg treated equally by the US government.
As to the content of the article, I hope it succeeds; bodily autonomy is one of my most deeply held beliefs.
I appreciate your context to this situation. You're right in that it's so much information to parse that it becomes very difficult to absorb what is actually going on. I want to be clear that I don't have a concrete stance on where I stand on TST and have wavered back and forth based on finding information going either way.
That comment thread looks very thorough so I will definitely read that to get some additional information too.
I almost feel kinda bad about bringing QS into this if all of their claims are false and they are really pretending to be a lot of things they're not- hopefully my posts made it clear that I felt this information was relevant to the topic- but that I was not trying to "be a mouthpiece for QS". But, if there's any place I felt a good discussion on this would happen, it's here at tildes- and your post and others' posts prove that to be the case. I love this place. :)
Addendum: I read the full comment thread posted, and have to admit, the rebuttals and information from TST's angle seem far more thorough, reasonable, and, above all, actually readable.
Thank you for the insight/link. I spent several hours trying to decipher QS' posts and it was exhausting to the point that I did not check other sources to verify their statements (when they had sources at all).
As is usually the case, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of the two parties involved.
That's exactly how I felt reading QS' posts too, although you just expressed it better than me. It was overwhelming, almost felt intentionally so, and also seemingly was without much concrete evidence to back it up. And, as a result, my skeptic instincts kicked in and I immediately thought of various conspiracy theory rants I've read over the years. That's why I said they didn't seem particularly convincing, but I would like to see someone more credible investigate the accusations that did seem like they might have a ring of truth the them.