22 votes

Fun fact: Taiwan claims exclusive sovereignty over mainland China and Mongolia as well as parts of Russia, India, Myanmar, Pakistan, Bhutan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Japan

Decided not to post a single link as there are tons of different articles about different aspects of it on Wikipedia. It's a whole thing!

It seems like this is a leftover from the Chinese civil war and/or Chiang Kai-shek's authoritarian and murderous rule because one of the above articles does mention that these territorial hopes haven't been worked towards for many years:

Originally placing high priority on reclaiming the Chinese mainland through Project National Glory, the KMT now favors a closer relation with the PRC and seeks to maintain Taiwan's status quo under the Constitution of the Republic of China. The party also accepts the 1992 Consensus, which defines both sides of the Taiwan Strait as "one China" but maintains its ambiguity to different interpretations.

It goes further back than that though, probably to 1966 when Project National Glory was abandoned:

[invasion of mainland China] as the initial stage of reunification was effectively abandoned after 1966, although the Guoguang planning organization was not abolished until 1972. The ROC did not abandon the policy of using force for reunification until 1990.

Thought this was all quite interesting, so I wanted to share! It is not exactly light reading though so I also wanted to ask for documentary recommendations about this, and of the Chinese civil war in general, if anybody knows of any good ones?

Don't mind me, just finding myself going into a lot of Wikipedia rabbit holes lately 😊

11 comments

  1. [2]
    ylph
    Link
    This issue is a bit more complex and nuanced however. These territorial claims are left over from the original Republic of China constitution, which still forms the basis of the government of...
    • Exemplary

    This issue is a bit more complex and nuanced however. These territorial claims are left over from the original Republic of China constitution, which still forms the basis of the government of modern Taiwan. ROC has in effect occupied Taiwan after it was given up by Japan at the end of WWII, and imposed a military and political dictatorship over the island that lasted for decades - part of it's policy at that time was a goal of reclaiming the former territory of the ROC which was lost to the PRC in the civil war.

    Taiwanese people have managed to reform the political structure of their government and establish real democratic rule in the 1990s, however by then, the conflict between the PRC and ROC was frozen in a "status quo" state where both sides agreed to some (not well defined as it turns out) concept of "one China" with 2 competing claims over it's government, and PRC agreed not to pursue military options against Taiwan as long as ROC continued to maintain its historic claims over all of China, and did not pursue any steps towards further independence and forming of Taiwan as an entity independent of "China".

    It is arguable if the ROC territorial claims ever reflected actual will of Taiwanese people - perhaps of the minority of mainland refugees (and occupiers) that have come to Taiwan when the ROC lost the civil war. Post 1990's vast majority of Taiwanese do not agree with these territorial claims - however, China has made it clear in the past that renouncing these historical claims would be seen as a step towards Taiwanese independence, and considered as Taiwan unilaterally breaking the "status quo", abandoning the "one China" principle (especially the Chinese interpretation of it) and thus justification for immediate military intervention by the PRC.

    The existence of this threat is why in public opinion polls among Taiwanese, most choose the "maintain status-quo" option, even people who would prefer Taiwanese independence in an ideal world - most do not see any upside in unilateral breaking of the status-quo and provoking the PRC into possibly destructive course of action. This is why there is no active effort to remove any historical territorial claims from the ROC constitution - the claims are not actively pursued either however (with some exceptions mostly involving islands immediately surrounding Taiwan and some in the South China Sea)

    23 votes
    1. smoontjes
      Link Parent
      Definitely an argument to be made about this, and I would assume it highly unlikely that more than a small minority of the original Taiwanese were ever supportive of the nationalists/occupiers...

      It is arguable if the ROC territorial claims ever reflected actual will of Taiwanese people - perhaps of the minority of mainland refugees (and occupiers) that have come to Taiwan when the ROC lost the civil war.

      Definitely an argument to be made about this, and I would assume it highly unlikely that more than a small minority of the original Taiwanese were ever supportive of the nationalists/occupiers considering the many crimes against humanity committed in the middle of the century (emphasis mine):

      As a result of Taiwan's anti-government uprising in 1947, known as the February 28 incident, the KMT-led political repression resulted in the death or the disappearance of up to 30,000 Taiwanese intellectuals, activists, and people suspected of opposition to the KMT.

      The first decades after the Nationalists had moved the seat of government to the province of Taiwan are associated with the organized effort to resist Communism, which was known as the "White Terror"; about 140,000 Taiwanese were imprisoned for their real or perceived opposition to the Kuomintang.

      Chiang had the personal power to review the rulings of all military tribunals, which during the martial law period tried civilians as well. In 1950, Lin Pang-chun and two other men were arrested on charges of financial crimes and sentenced to 3–10 years in prison. Chiang reviewed the sentences of all three and ordered them executed instead. In 1954, the Changhua monk Kao Chih-te and two others were sentenced to 12 years in prison for providing aid to accused communists. Chiang sentenced them to death after he had reviewed the case. That control over the decision of military tribunals violated the ROC constitution.

      (KMT in the above stands for Kuomintang, the nationalist party of the Generalissimo that held absolute power in Taiwan until 1991)

      2 votes
  2. [9]
    phoenixrises
    Link
    I do think that this is a more outdated point of view nowadays, a lot of younger Taiwanese people that I know are more for either independence or status quo. Anecdotal of course, but it's...

    I do think that this is a more outdated point of view nowadays, a lot of younger Taiwanese people that I know are more for either independence or status quo. Anecdotal of course, but it's definitely not the de facto viewpoint of everyone.

    Source: I'm a Taiwanese American, and my grandpa was in the retreating army from China to Taiwan when he was in the army.

    19 votes
    1. [5]
      Kitahara_Kazusa
      Link Parent
      From what I know the problem is Taiwan cannot declare independence, because it has already said there is only one China, and the CCP has said they may take military action of Taiwan tries to go...

      From what I know the problem is Taiwan cannot declare independence, because it has already said there is only one China, and the CCP has said they may take military action of Taiwan tries to go independent.

      So it is difficult for Taiwan to make any statements about how much land it claims, because even admitting to claim the island of Taiwan as sovereign could result in war. So they just keep the most ambitious claims from the earliest days of the civil war, not because they're serious about them, but because there's no way for them to make any comments on the subject without risking a war.

      16 votes
      1. [4]
        phoenixrises
        Link Parent
        Yup! That's the "status quo" part of my statement. It's a very difficult topic and sometimes gets me very anxious for my family out there. My family is the only "American branch" in my family,...

        Yup! That's the "status quo" part of my statement. It's a very difficult topic and sometimes gets me very anxious for my family out there. My family is the only "American branch" in my family, generally people in Taiwan don't think about it too much honestly. It's sometimes annoying for me because I see fellow Americans only really see Taiwan as a pawn and not for anything else and it's a shame.

        Edit: I read through @ylph 's comment and I think it more accurately portrays what I'm trying to say!

        4 votes
        1. [3]
          boxer_dogs_dance
          Link Parent
          I grew up during the cold war with communism and I definitely knew people who supported Taiwan for political/ideological reasons. But that history is growing a lot more distant as is natural....

          I grew up during the cold war with communism and I definitely knew people who supported Taiwan for political/ideological reasons.

          But that history is growing a lot more distant as is natural. There are many stories of tragic migrations and military defeats in history. India's partition was another tragic story few people in the US relate to if they don't have a family background with it.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            phoenixrises
            Link Parent
            Sometimes I feel like it gets really fanatical and kinda scary. People can claim that they support Taiwan and hate China but at the end of the day, we all look the same to them anyways. Not that...

            Sometimes I feel like it gets really fanatical and kinda scary. People can claim that they support Taiwan and hate China but at the end of the day, we all look the same to them anyways. Not that it's okay to hate on Chinese people, regardless.

            Yes for sure! It's a really interesting thing honestly, regarding India. I grew up with many Indian and Pakistani friends (I feel like I'm gonna dox my own hometown if I get more specific lol) but I feel lucky enough to have grown up treating everyone the same.

            1 vote
            1. boxer_dogs_dance
              Link Parent
              Yeah the range of anticommunist thoughts and opinions spreads from rational critique all the way to hateful nuts like Joseph McCarthy and the John Birch society. (using very old examples because...

              Yeah the range of anticommunist thoughts and opinions spreads from rational critique all the way to hateful nuts like Joseph McCarthy and the John Birch society. (using very old examples because they are well known/ easily looked up.)

              Ethnocentrism and racism and lack of multicultural experience are all three real phenomena. Here is a similar dynamic, I was encouraged in fundamentalist churches to support Israel when I had never knowingly met a jewish person. Most of the jewish population in my state does not live in rural towns like the ones where I grew up.

              Anyway, I wish the best for Taiwan.

    2. [3]
      smoontjes
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      That would make a lot of sense, because it's certainly never talked about nor do you ever hear about it in media whenever Taiwan/China issues come up. It is indeed all about independence or the...

      I do think that this is a more outdated point of view nowadays, a lot of younger Taiwanese people that I know are more for either independence or status quo.

      That would make a lot of sense, because it's certainly never talked about nor do you ever hear about it in media whenever Taiwan/China issues come up. It is indeed all about independence or the right to self determination. However I also found it interesting that they are not a UN member state:

      Due to the ROC's insecurity and intolerance in the 1970s and 1980s after it was expelled by the UN as well as American influence, the ROC gradually democratized and adopted universal suffrage, ending under the one-party leadership of President Chiang Ching-kuo by lifting 38 years of martial law on the Communist rebellion on Mainland China and establishing the new self-identity of Republic of China (system) on Taiwan in the international community, enacting Two Chinas states in the world

      1. [2]
        phoenixrises
        Link Parent
        I want to echo that @ylph did a fantastic writeup of the general sentiment in Taiwan is right now (in my experience anyways) I'm not any sort of expert or know anything about geopolitics, but I'd...

        I want to echo that @ylph did a fantastic writeup of the general sentiment in Taiwan is right now (in my experience anyways)

        The existence of this threat is why in public opinion polls among Taiwanese, most choose the "maintain status-quo" option, even people who would prefer Taiwanese independence in an ideal world - most do not see any upside in unilateral breaking of the status-quo and provoking the PRC into possibly destructive course of action.

        I'm not any sort of expert or know anything about geopolitics, but I'd think that because of China's influence nowadays sadly I don't think we're going to become a UN member state any time soon. Taiwan can't even compete in the Olympics under Taiwan, only ever under "Chinese Taipei".
        I'm very proud of my homeland. In the last couple of decades we've done so much, including being the first Asian country to legalize same-sex marriage. I wasn't alive during the 1970's and 80's so I can't speak of it back then, but now it's an amazing country full of friendly people and good tourist places.

        5 votes
        1. smoontjes
          Link Parent
          I saw their comment, yes! That's actually exactly what triggered my curiosity about this! The Asian Games are happening right now (started yesterday) and seeing that name and the odd olympic flag...

          I saw their comment, yes!

          Taiwan can't even compete in the Olympics under Taiwan, only ever under "Chinese Taipei".

          That's actually exactly what triggered my curiosity about this! The Asian Games are happening right now (started yesterday) and seeing that name and the odd olympic flag they are using peaked my interest.

          I wish I could fast forward and see what's next because the progress has indeed been remarkable. Might compare it in a way to South Korea since they were also under military dictatorship for decades on end, both countries only starting the democratic process around 30-40 years ago

          1 vote