12 votes

Daniel Radcliffe responds to JK Rowling's latest tweets about gender identity

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11 comments

  1. Deimos
    Link
    After discussing with a couple of people (including the OP), I've removed a few comments in here and locked the thread. The discussion wasn't bad, but I think we need to find a way to be more...

    After discussing with a couple of people (including the OP), I've removed a few comments in here and locked the thread.

    The discussion wasn't bad, but I think we need to find a way to be more explicit that ~lgbt shouldn't really be a place for having debates about fundamental LGBT issues. That's difficult to do on Tildes right now because the site doesn't really have clear separations between the different groups yet, but I think we need to try to find a way to do it. ~lgbt shouldn't feel like a place where LGBT people need to defend themselves.

    24 votes
  2. [3]
    cfabbro
    Link
    Tweet that sparked it all: https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1269382518362509313 Plus several followups: https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1269401983095648259...
    2 votes
    1. [2]
      ThatFanficGuy
      Link Parent
      Sometimes I look at Twitter, and I'm reminded just how many talented, brilliant, well-spoken, empathetic people there are. Other times are... like this. That is one vile series of threads.

      Sometimes I look at Twitter, and I'm reminded just how many talented, brilliant, well-spoken, empathetic people there are.

      Other times are... like this.

      That is one vile series of threads.

      8 votes
      1. cfabbro
        Link Parent
        Yeah, it makes me incredibly sad. And TIL via them that Martina Navratilova is a TERF too. She has been a supposed ally for decades, but apparently she thinks LGBTQ+ should just be LGB. :(

        Yeah, it makes me incredibly sad. And TIL via them that Martina Navratilova is a TERF too. She has been a supposed ally for decades, but apparently she thinks LGBTQ+ should just be LGB. :(

        1 vote
  3. [7]
    Turtle
    Link
    Isn't it a pretty common idea in gender studies that gender identity is distinct from sex? So a trans woman would be a woman (gender identity) but not a female (sex), right? To me her tweets just...

    Isn't it a pretty common idea in gender studies that gender identity is distinct from sex? So a trans woman would be a woman (gender identity) but not a female (sex), right? To me her tweets just seem to be affirming this but confusing "female" for "woman". Apologies if this is offensive, I'm not well educated in these things.

    2 votes
    1. cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      JK is not affirming that, and is not confused about the distinction between gender and sex, she is intentionally ignoring it in an attempt to create a straw man argument. She, like most TERFs,...

      JK is not affirming that, and is not confused about the distinction between gender and sex, she is intentionally ignoring it in an attempt to create a straw man argument. She, like most TERFs, knows exactly what she is doing by using said straw man arguments, dog-whistles, ignoring the existence of intersex conditions in their black & white rhetoric, playing the free speech card, claiming to be the real victims due to "censorship", all in a deceitful attempt to turn others against recently passed gender identity and transgender discrimination protection laws.

      E.g. JK has previously tweeted in support of another TERF, Maya Forstater, who lost her employment tribunal wrongful dismissal lawsuit over holding similar beliefs and making similar tweets as JK has, and I think the judge's summary in that case sums it up perfectly:

      I accept that the Claimant genuinely holds the view that sex is biological and immutable. For her it is more that an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available. Even though she has come to this belief recently she is fixed in it, and appears to be becoming more so. She is not prepared to consider the possibility that her belief may not be correct. I accept that the belief Claimant goes to substantial aspects of human life and behaviour.

      I next considered whether the Claimant’s core belief that sex is immutable lacks a level of cogency and cohesion. It is avowedly not religious or metaphysical, but is said to be scientific. Her belief is that a man is a person who, if everything is working, can produce sperm and a woman a person who, if everything is working, can produce eggs. This does not sit easily with her view that even if everything is not, in her words, “working”, and may never have done so, the person can still only be male or female. The Claimant largely ignores intersex conditions and the fact that biological opinion is increasingly moving away from a absolutist approach to there being genes the presence or absence of which determine specific attributes, to understanding that it is necessary to analyse which genes are present, which are switched on, the extent to which they are switched on and the way in which they interact with other genes. However, I bear in mind that “coherence” mainly requires that the belief can be understood and that “not too much should be not expected”. A “scientific” belief may not be based on very good science without it being so irrational that it unable to meet the relatively modest threshold of coherence. On balance, I do not consider that the Claimant’s belief fails the test of being “attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance”; even though there is significant scientific evidence that it is wrong. I also cannot ignore that the Claimant’s approach (save in respect of refusing to accept that a Gender Recognition Certificate changes a person’s sex for all purposes) is largely that currently adopted by the law, which still treats sex as binary as defined on a birth certificate.

      However, I consider that the Claimant's view, in its absolutist nature, is incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others. She goes so far as to deny the right of a person with a Gender Recognition Certificate to be the sex to which they have transitioned. I do not accept the Claimant's contention that the Gender Recognition Act produces a mere legal fiction. It provides a right, based on the assessment of the various interrelated convention rights, for a person to transition, in certain circumstances, and thereafter to be treated for all purposes as the being of the sex to which they have transitioned. In Goodwin a fundamental aspect of the reasoning of the ECHR was that a person who has transitioned should not be forced to identify their gender assigned at birth. Such a person should be entitled to live as a person of the sex to which they have transitioned. That was recognised in the Gender Recognition Act which states that the change of sex applies for “all purposes”. Therefore, if a person has transitioned from male to female and has a Gender Recognition Certificate that person is legally a woman. That is not something that the Claimant is entitled to ignore.

      Many trans people are happy to discuss their trans status. Others are not and/or consider it of vital importance not to be misgendered. The Equal Treatment Bench Book notes the TUC survey that refers to people having their transgender status disclosed against their will. The Claimant does not accept that she should avoid the enormous pain that can be caused by misgendering a persons, even if that person has a Gender Recognition Certificate. In her statement she says of people with Gender Recognition Certificates “In many cases people can identify a person’s sex on sight, or they may have known the person before transition.... There is no general legal compulsion for people not to believe their own eyes or to forget, or pretend to forget, what they already know, or which is already in the public domain.” The Claimant's position is that even if a trans woman has a Gender Recognition Certificate, she cannot honestly describe herself as a woman. That belief is not worthy of respect in a democratic society. It is incompatible with the human rights of others that have been identified and defined by the ECHR and put into effect through the Gender Recognition Act.

      There is nothing to stop the Claimant campaigning against the proposed revision to the Gender Recognition Act to be based more on self-identification. She is entitled to put forward her opinion that these should be some spaces that are limited to women assigned female at birth where it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. However, that does not mean that her absolutist view that sex is immutable is a protected belief for the purposes of the EqA. The Claimant can legitimately put forward her arguments about the importance of some safe spaces that are only be available to women identified female at birth, without insisting on calling trans women men.

      16 votes
    2. [5]
      moonbathers
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      She's purposely ignoring that distinction. No one who's trans and transitions think their biological sex matches their gender. Edit: Since the thread's been locked, I would just like to say that...

      She's purposely ignoring that distinction. No one who's trans and transitions think their biological sex matches their gender.

      Edit: Since the thread's been locked, I would just like to say that "transgendered" isn't a word, transgender isn't a verb and certainly isn't something that just happens and then is over with.

      13 votes
      1. [4]
        johnh865
        Link Parent
        Rowling is equating women with sex rather than gender and asserting that sex is a significant and meaningful classification. In contrast certain activists are pushing the notion that sex as a...

        Rowling is equating women with sex rather than gender and asserting that sex is a significant and meaningful classification.

        In contrast certain activists are pushing the notion that sex as a classification needs to be superceded with binary gender classification in both legal and cultural norms.

        I tend to agree with Rowling. The physical form and function of your body matters. The form and function of a trans woman is not the same as the form and function of a woman.

        Rather than forcing everyone to reclassify the "Trans-Woman" gender as "Woman", why not just use the identity "Trans-Woman"? It's more descriptive and more accurate, able to capture information about both gender and sex. Like it or not, we don't have the technology to do a full sexual conversion. A trans-woman can not genetically and physically approach the "Woman" descriptor as well as the typical "Real Woman".

        I have a hard time understanding why this even matters. In a legal sense, we can make laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender. Why then does it matter what classification of gender you are? Why do some trans-activists demand to use a binary gender classification scheme (You are either man/woman) rather than a broader classification scheme (You can be man/woman/trans/gay/etc)?

        I can think of only 2 things:

        • Sports competitions
        • Sexuality and partnership

        IMO it's not fair for trans women to compete in women's sporting events, because of biological advantages.
        In terms of sexuality and partnership, yes, your trans-status matters. I'm also quite sure the vast majority of partners would like to know if you are transgendered. Therefore trans categorization is indeed a useful social categorization and ought not "go away".

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Gee... I wonder why people would be hesitant to explicitly identify themselves as transgender. Maybe this has something to do with it?...

          why not just use the identity "Trans-Woman"? ... I have a hard time understanding why this even matters.

          Gee... I wonder why people would be hesitant to explicitly identify themselves as transgender. Maybe this has something to do with it?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender

          Or maybe this?

          https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2019
          https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and

          And how about a prime example from just a few days ago:

          https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/iyanna-dior-minneapolis-beating-1009736/

          And as to your red herring about transgender athletes in sport, see:

          https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including

          A study of transgender women found their race times slowed after transitioning, but their age grades, which compare people to the best runners of the same sex and age, hardly changed, suggesting they have no advantage over non-transgender women.
          ...
          Harper has since shown similar results for a transgender rower, a cyclist, and a sprinter. Together, the findings make a case that previous exposure to male levels of testosterone does not confer an enduring athletic advantage.

          And more recently:

          https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/trans-athletes-performance-transition-research-1.5183432

          14 votes
          1. CALICO
            Link Parent
            Quick addition, not to counter: Hardlining a binary sex ignores the intersex population. Small as it is, they're still people who ought to be considered in discussions along these lines.

            Quick addition, not to counter:
            Hardlining a binary sex ignores the intersex population. Small as it is, they're still people who ought to be considered in discussions along these lines.

            13 votes
          2. [2]
            Comment removed by site admin
            Link Parent
            1. spit-evil-olive-tips
              Link Parent
              That is the consensus...if a transgender person identifies as a woman, they're a woman. But that's not Rowling's stance at all. That's the entire controversy here. She is arguing for a "transwomen...

              As far as I know, the consensus is that you should call a transwoman whatever label they prefer on a personal level, that no classification system must be explicitly prescribed for all transpeople.

              That is the consensus...if a transgender person identifies as a woman, they're a woman. But that's not Rowling's stance at all. That's the entire controversy here.

              She is arguing for a "transwomen are still just men, not real women" classification system, to be universally applied.

              The tweet that started this current round of controversy was insisting that "people who menstruate" and "women" are one and the same and so the former term isn't even necessary. She's erasing trans men (who are men, and menstruate) and trans women (who are women, and don't menstruate). She is the one trying to impose her own worldview and "things ought to be This Way" onto the rest of the world.

              11 votes
            2. Removed by admin: 2 comments by 2 users
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