21 votes

It's not just male influencers who preach problematic manipulation

7 comments

  1. Gekko
    Link
    I dunno about this, this is a pretty heavy assertion. I concur that we're seeing a resurgence of that early 2000s tabloid cover at the grocery store "10 ways to make a man fall for you" sort of...

    That this brand of self-help is having a resurgence right now is hardly surprising. The sexual revolution, whatever its benefits, also blew up virtually all the social structures and strictures that used to regulate romantic entanglements, leaving young people to navigate a lawless, chaotic landscape in which there’s no guarantee that the person you’re sleeping with even likes you, let alone intends to commit. Almost every trend in this sphere — from the demisexuals who insist that requiring an emotional connection before sex represents a protected identity category to the ubiquitous therapy-speak that turns ordinary disappointments into pathologies — represents an attempt by young women to reestablish some sort of order, to make their romantic and sexual lives make sense. And when young women are less likely to be looking for Mr. Right than hunting for the red flags that reveal a man to be undateable, it’s not hard to see the appeal of imposing a rigid framework on the whole endeavour, even if that framework is rooted in manipulation and pretence.

    I dunno about this, this is a pretty heavy assertion. I concur that we're seeing a resurgence of that early 2000s tabloid cover at the grocery store "10 ways to make a man fall for you" sort of dreck coming back, but blaming it on sexually and romantically liberated women is a bold step for the author to take. I think you can avoid falling into traditionalist stereotypes and still have a healthy understanding of romance and attraction.

    Otherwise, interesting article, thanks for sharing OP! A little disheartening that so many people give these influencers the time of day, there are so many great resources on how to sort out your romantic and sexual anxieties and work on finding a partner without compromising mutual respect.

    23 votes
  2. boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    This is a risk to post such a provocative article, but I think the author makes some good points. Please be kind and generous if you are going to discuss. It should be obvious but Tate is very bad...

    This is a risk to post such a provocative article, but I think the author makes some good points. Please be kind and generous if you are going to discuss.

    It should be obvious but Tate is very bad in many more ways than just teaching manipulation.

    15 votes
  3. [4]
    chizcurl
    Link
    Interesting writeup on the evolution of unhealthy 90s relationship views as they've moved from books and magazines to social media. I don't follow these types of influencers, but it's good to be...

    Interesting writeup on the evolution of unhealthy 90s relationship views as they've moved from books and magazines to social media. I don't follow these types of influencers, but it's good to be aware of who they are since they have a platform and can affect young/vulnerable minds. I wish Rosenfield explained the TikTok hashtags in the context of social media use. I tried googling "what is #lawofattraction" and that didn't really help. I don't want to affect my algorithms, so I won't be looking up videos. 😅

    Some of what she writes is too reductive for me though. Like we're gonna need at least another sentence explaining what the trad movement has to do with #metoo (women sharing their stories of harassment and discrimination at work?). The concept of power connecting the two was a stretch. It was also offensive to call demisexuals a "trend" and subtly question their existence. Modern dating is lawless and chaotic, but identity-affirming labels aren't just for young women. Lastly, I'm curious as to why the author doesn't consider looking out for red flags as part of the search for "Mr. Right".

    13 votes
    1. [3]
      mayonuki
      Link Parent
      I think they are saying that in the game of dating, nowadays there are so many different rules "win conditions" that vary between person to person. The earnestness or sincerity of dating is not...

      Lastly, I'm curious as to why the author doesn't consider looking out for red flags as part of the search for "Mr. Right".

      I think they are saying that in the game of dating, nowadays there are so many different rules "win conditions" that vary between person to person. The earnestness or sincerity of dating is not necessarily something that a dater can rely on. For any two people dating, they might be looking to get married with kids, or they might be looking for entirely different things. Since good-faith is not as reliable, daters feel the need to stay guarded and vigilant for signs. Good communication would make that a lot easier, but there is both some dishonesty as well as vulnerability with being too open.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        chizcurl
        Link Parent
        I agree that one cannot solely rely on sincerity or earnestness in dating; sometimes people say one thing but act otherwise. It just sounds to me like the writer thinks finding Mr. Right (your...

        I agree that one cannot solely rely on sincerity or earnestness in dating; sometimes people say one thing but act otherwise. It just sounds to me like the writer thinks finding Mr. Right (your person) and hunting for red flags are mutually exclusive. But I think it's normal to search for the right person while looking out for incompatible values aka signs/red flags? The author could have elaborated a bit more.

        4 votes
        1. mayonuki
          Link Parent
          Yeah I think you are right. The writers wording made me think about it a while. I think another way to put is is that people dating now have to play a little more defensively in the dating game,...

          Yeah I think you are right. The writers wording made me think about it a while. I think another way to put is is that people dating now have to play a little more defensively in the dating game, which can set a bit more of an adversarial arena.

          1 vote
  4. umlautsuser123
    Link
    The angle of "women don't want love, they want a transactional relationship" just gets a shrug from me. But the thrust of it-- that women are trying to understand how to date-- resonates a lot...

    The angle of "women don't want love, they want a transactional relationship" just gets a shrug from me. But the thrust of it-- that women are trying to understand how to date-- resonates a lot with me.

    Speaking generally, I don't like a lot of the "rules," but I get why people listen to them. For example, if your goal is to date, then some of the abhorrent tips you might find online are correct. (If your goal is to find a kind, fairly stable-minded life partner, then it's usually very wrong). When I read them, there was often a lot of good advice in there with the bad. If you're someone who has never considered self-development, it would probably bring you a lot of success to do so. Conversely, if you're someone who's been conditioned to feel responsible for changing yourself into "being lovable," then thinking of yourself as "high value" will probably give you better-- or at least different-- outcomes than before.

    The sexual revolution, whatever its benefits, also blew up virtually all the social structures and strictures that used to regulate romantic entanglements, leaving young people to navigate a lawless, chaotic landscape in which there’s no guarantee that the person you’re sleeping with even likes you, let alone intends to commit.

    I read this sociology book on the hookup culture a while ago (and well, participated heavily) and agree strongly with this. There is no set of law or norms that fits modern society. Dating is even starkly different from 3 and 10 years ago, IME, and online dating was already in full-swing. Things have moved too quickly for us to find agreed upon norms, which has led to a lot of disappointment. And personally, I feel the old norms are somewhat dulled by their proximity to values that are not as supportive of a sexually liberated woman.

    The best guiding principle I've found in our modern era (in all aspects) is mindfulness: being present in your life, appreciating what's in front of you, and being intentional about your actions. Every year we seem to move further away from that, and worse, I think it is increasingly punishing to be that person in a sea of people who view your interactions as cheap.

    3 votes