12 votes

How Joe Biden can win over Bernie voters

27 comments

  1. [25]
    dubteedub
    Link
    I think that this lays out that many of Bernie's strongest supporters online don't actually care about policy and are in this for a cult of personality. This makes it seem like it is not worth it...

    The answer is that you can do nothing. The opportunity to win back Bernie's voters came and went four years ago. Bernie could spend the rest of the year campaigning for Joe. Joe could promise to abolish private property by executive order on day one. It would not be enough.

    I think that this lays out that many of Bernie's strongest supporters online don't actually care about policy and are in this for a cult of personality. This makes it seem like it is not worth it for Biden to try to make any attempts to appease the Bernie wing and should keep the policy positions that he has. I really am struggling with why the author is making this argument at all.

    Bernie was projected to win a decisive lead on Super Tuesday. Biden was, everyone thought, on his last legs and had not campaigned or established a ground presence in many states. Then, in the days immediately before Super Tuesday, several of his opponents dropped out. Their endorsements and a raft of others carried him to victory.

    This was a message to Bernie voters: "Fuck off. We would rather drag Joe Biden over the finish line, knowing that he is no longer mentally competent, than cede anything to the candidate who is winning your votes by fifty points or more."

    I think Super Tuesday really just demonstrated that Bernie's coalition is no more than 30-odd percent of Democratic voters. Bernie had a real opportunity after his initial wins and high placements in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada to demonstrate that he could be a leader of the Democratic party and build a unifying coalition. Instead, he said that he would continue to fight the Democratic establishment and the Republican establishment and went on 60 minutes to make some completely unnecessarily positive comments about Fidel Castro's government in Cuba. Bernie's entire strategy for 2020 was to have the moderate wing of the party split the vote among competing candidates, allowing him to win most states with just 30% of the vote. Bernie was running Trump's 2016 strategy and his campaign and supporters are now upset that the Democratic party coalesced around Biden when it was clear the other candidates did not have a chance.

    In essence, what Bernie has been telling Democratic voters for the last five years is "Fuck off. We don't need you. We will build a new coalition of young voters (and in 2020 Latino voters)."

    For many Democratic voters, particularly in the black community, attacking the Democratic establishment is attacking your neighbors, your community leaders, and those that have been there for you. I encourage Sanders supporters interested in reading more about this to check out this thread by Michael Harriot, senior writer for The Root, on why black voters are so supportive of the "establishment" of the Democratic party.

    https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1235747745215819777

    I also think it is a really bad move for supporters of a candidate who is just as old and just had a heart attack to attack the health and competence of another.

    We have all spent the past four years arguing about whether Bernie Bros are alienating voters by being rude on Twitter. My personal feeling is that if people care enough about their candidates to get into fights about them on Twitter, the fighting is not what made up their minds. It doesn’t bother me if you are rude to the Bernie Bros. I know how intolerable we can be. We specialize in intolerability. You have to react in whatever way feels natural. The way the Biden campaign won made a greater and more unalterable impression on us than any sweet or stern words you have for us now.

    I think downplaying the toxicity of online behavior is really disgusting and is a large reason why I would prefer Biden to Bernie.

    Toward the end of a primary there is often talk to the effect that even if your candidate didn’t win, he changed the conversation, whatever that means, and might be able to whisper ideas in the winner’s ear or even to hold him accountable, whatever that means. This was a fantasy when it came to Hillary Clinton.

    At this point the author is just admitting to telling straight up lies without any evidence to back up their arguments.

    Biden is already running on a platform that is left of Hillary in 2020. It is not a stretch to think he would go further left in the convention. Biden is also willing to compromise to a fault. To say that he would never bend on his position is denying reality.

    The document goes further left than Clinton’s position on a number of issues, with Sanders policy director Warren Gunnells saying his campaign achieved “at least 80 percent” of what it came for. “I think if you read the platform right now, you will understand that the political revolution is alive and kicking,” he said.

    It is a joke when it comes to Joe Biden. If Biden were the kind of candidate who could be pushed left, no one in the party leadership would have endorsed him.

    This is a completely absurd statement.

    I know by this point you have all kinds of desperate or righteously angry appeals in mind. "Think about Trump’s racism. Think about the kids in cages. If nothing else, think about the Supreme Court!" Sorry, that shit doesn’t work anymore.

    Okay cool, some nice accelerationist bullshit in there as well. Couldn't hurt to just go all in at this point.

    I am just going to skip to the end at this point. It really is clear that people that think this way are divorced from reality and have bought into a completely different set of facts than the rest of us and are willing to burn this country down if they don't get their way.

    You are going to have to count on losing more Bernie Bros than Hillary lost. Maybe you don’t need them, but you do need to take stock of your own forces. Your army is consultants, suburban parents, journalists who are addicted to Twitter, and senior citizens who are addicted to MSNBC. Also, possibly, the handful of very confused senior citizens who have wandered onto Twitter.

    Great job just completely ignoring the black electorate. Really dig into your ignorance there.

    You may object that none of this is so easy when you have a small business, you are on the board of a local charity, you have two kids or three grandkids to look after. You're probably right. On that point I have no advice to offer.

    The seething hate, ignorance, and condescension throughout this post is palpable.

    If this is the best defense of why Sanders supporters are going to stay home, then I have to say, I really don't care to be in a coalition with you.

    If you are willing to just write off anyone that voted, supported, or endorsed Biden as a privileged, old, rich asshole, and then say but most of us are going to stay home or vote third party if we don't win, then maybe you should re-evaluate your priorities.

    There is so much at stake in this election. The horrific response to the coronavirus so far by the Trump administration is just the latest in a long string of incompetence, negligence, and policies designed to hurt other Americans.

    If Biden is the nominee in 2020 and you stay home, vote third party, or vote for Trump because you would rather have the country burn down so that some revolution will finally happy in America that will magically solve all your problems. By taking this action, you are saying I don't give a fuck if LGBT continue to be targeted by Trump, I don't give a fuck if muslims are attacked by his polices, I don't give a fuck about migrants, I don't give a fuck about anyone but me.

    And to that, all I can say is fuck you.

    4 votes
    1. [7]
      wycy
      Link Parent
      This post is too long for me to have the energy to go through point by point, so I'll just address the idea of Bernie's plan being to go through and win 30% of each state. What the exit polls have...

      This post is too long for me to have the energy to go through point by point, so I'll just address the idea of Bernie's plan being to go through and win 30% of each state.

      What the exit polls have shown is that the Bernie plan was overwhelmingly popular in every single state up to and including Super Tuesday. At each of the primaries[*], entrance polls asked the question: "How do you feel about replacing all private health insurance with a single government plan for everyone?"

      "Support": Alabama 51%, California 55%, Colorado 57%, Massachusetts 50%, Minnesota 62%, North Carolina 55%, Oklahoma 53%, Tennessee 53%, Texas 64%, Virginia 52%, Vermont 73%, Iowa 57%, New Hampshire 58%, Nevada 62%, Michigan 58%, Washington 63%, Mississippi 60%, Missouri 58%.

      However, mainstream media relentlessly hammered the narrative that Bernie can't win, Bernie isn't electable, Biden is electable. So as for the question, "Rather nominate a candidate who...Can beat Donald Trump or Agrees with you on major issues":

      "Can beat Donald Trump": Alabama 53%, California 64%, Colorado 69%, Massachusetts 65%, Minnesota 65%, North Carolina 63%, Oklahoma 55%, Tennessee 61%, Texas 64%, Virginia 58%, Vermont 63%, Iowa 61%, New Hampshire 63%, Nevada 66%.

      This shows that although the majority of Democratic voters in literally every state supported even Bernie's most radical idea, people were too scared to vote for him and set aside their own beliefs to vote for Biden instead. He was going for the majority, but there's no beating the media narrative of fear.

      [*] They stopped asking this question after Super Tuesday, so only states up to Super Tuesday are included here.

      16 votes
      1. [3]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        This isn't at all how politics work. The Democratic policy proposals have a commanding lead over Republicans in every election, but Republican candidates tend to win based on random intangibles...

        This shows that although the majority of Democratic voters in literally every state supported even Bernie's most radical idea, people were too scared to vote for him and set aside their own beliefs to vote for Biden instead. He was going for the majority, but there's no beating the media narrative of fear.

        This isn't at all how politics work. The Democratic policy proposals have a commanding lead over Republicans in every election, but Republican candidates tend to win based on random intangibles like "I trust him" or "he understands people like me" or "he makes me feel safe."

        It's not fear, it's literally lack of trust. If you don't talk to key constituencies and do all your organizing online and spend all your time on TV sending out attack-dog surrogates, people aren't going to trust you. And if Sanders couldn't win the trust of Democrats in a Democratic primary, I don't know how people think he's going to dodge Republican flim-flam in a general election.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          wycy
          Link Parent
          Perhaps in general lack of trust is a big player in these elections, but I’d disagree that it is wrt Sanders. Even people who hate his guts trust him and trust that he’ll try to do what he says,...

          Perhaps in general lack of trust is a big player in these elections, but I’d disagree that it is wrt Sanders. Even people who hate his guts trust him and trust that he’ll try to do what he says, even if they wholeheartedly disagree with him.

          This argument hits the nail on the head, though, for why many of us take such strong issue with Biden. Given his history, it’s hard to trust that he’ll try to push even his already compromised positions.

          3 votes
          1. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            This just isn't true. Lots of older people absolutely do not trust him. Talk to any Black organizing community and you will find TONS of people accusing him of being an egomaniac and a flim-flam...

            Perhaps in general lack of trust is a big player in these elections, but I’d disagree that it is wrt Sanders. Even people who hate his guts trust him and trust that he’ll try to do what he says, even if they wholeheartedly disagree with him.

            This just isn't true. Lots of older people absolutely do not trust him. Talk to any Black organizing community and you will find TONS of people accusing him of being an egomaniac and a flim-flam man. And even those who like him might trust that he's honest, but they don't trust that he actually has the competence or skills to actually execute on anything he's promising.

            Given his history, it’s hard to trust that he’ll try to push even his already compromised positions.

            Biden's history has always been about being a weathervane for wherever the mid-point of the Democratic party consensus is. He's utterly predictable and can be relied on to do whatever will get signature bits of legislation passed with his name on it.

            5 votes
      2. [3]
        dubteedub
        Link Parent
        I encourage you to read this article in the Huffington Post that quotes a number of campaign officials and says that this was in fact their strategy. I have pulled some quotes out below, but its a...

        This post is too long for me to have the energy to go through point by point, so I'll just address the idea of Bernie's plan being to go through and win 30% of each state.

        I encourage you to read this article in the Huffington Post that quotes a number of campaign officials and says that this was in fact their strategy. I have pulled some quotes out below, but its a good read.

        If Sanders could also energize a larger base of working-class Americans behind him, it likely would be enough for him in a fragmented Democratic field of strong contenders. Then it fell short.

        On Super Tuesday, Sanders didn’t end up running in a packed field. The day before the election, Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Indiana’s Pete Buttigieg dropped out and threw their weight behind Joe Biden. Former presidential candidate and Texas darling Beto O’Rourke endorsed the former vice president too, as did influential leaders like Rep. Bobby Scott of Virginia, who has sway with Black voters in his state, and former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada.

        “That was an unprecedented event — that candidates drop out before Super Tuesday,” Ben Tulchin, a pollster working with Sanders said. The campaign expected the consolidating to come after Super Tuesday, not before, he said.

        “I think that Bernie’s vote ... is what we would have predicted,” Larry Cohen, who chairs the board of Our Revolution, the political action organization backing Sanders candidacy. “What changed? The Biden vote surged.”

        Sanders strategy was based on a split field ― which no longer exists.

        When Sanders got into the race last year, those around him saw the crowded field as an asset.

        “He’s got a loyal following, he’s got a high floor, he doesn’t need much more to get to a win number in a crowded field,” a Democratic pollster affiliated with the campaign said in March of 2019, when Sanders had just jumped in.

        Those around Sanders knew winning 25% of the field over and over again would rack up delegates across the country, as long as everyone else in the race was doing worse than that. That was how Trump did it (though, it should be noted that the Republicans make it a lot easier to win delegates than Democrats do with their winner-take-all approach to states).

        “They misread the dynamics of this election,” said Mark Longabaugh a Democratic strategist who advised Sanders’ 2016 campaign but parted ways with it going into his 2020 run, citing creative differences. “He in his own mind doesn’t understand that in 2016, we had a binary race. If voters didn’t go for Clinton, they were going to go for Sanders. It’s very obvious that a lot of our vote in 2016 were people who didn’t want Clinton and they weren’t necessarily left-wing ideologues ― part of his revolution.”


        Here is another one from The Atlantic.

        “There’s a three-out-of-four chance we are not the nominee,” Faiz Shakir, Sanders’s current campaign manager, says he tells the senator, “but that one-in-four chance is better than anyone else in the field.”

        The senator from Vermont’s pitch is a mix of idealism and a shouting anger about the system, but at its heart is a hard-nosed math: He’s the only candidate with a sizable chunk of the electorate that won’t waver, no matter what, so a field that keeps growing and splitting support keeps making things easier.

        He’s counting on winning Iowa and New Hampshire, where he was already surprisingly strong in 2016, and hoping that Cory Booker and Kamala Harris will split the black electorate in South Carolina and give him a path to slip through there, too. And then, Sanders aides believe, he’ll easily win enough delegates to put him into contention at the convention. They say they don’t need him to get more than 30 percent to make that happen.

        3 votes
        1. [2]
          wycy
          Link Parent
          Perhaps I should rephrase. I fully acknowledge that the Sanders' team hoped that a splintered field would help them win, but this talking point implies he was only trying to run a divisive...

          Perhaps I should rephrase. I fully acknowledge that the Sanders' team hoped that a splintered field would help them win, but this talking point implies he was only trying to run a divisive platform aimed at winning a minority of the electorate. I'd counter that hoped to win a majority of voters all along, and exit polls show that his platform did accomplish this even though he didn't.

          I think the primary way this affected his strategy was not in only trying to appeal to a minority of voters, but instead in that he did not consider the threat from the other candidates seriously enough to attack them. I think the main thing that would have changed if he weren't counting on a splintered field would be that he would've been attacking Biden's record all along, but he didn't want to look like a dick beating on a confused old man who was seemingly going nowhere.

          So I agree with you more in fact, but less in implication of the fact.

          tl;dr Saying he was trying to run the Trump strategy implies that he was being more divisive to win a minority, when in reality this made him less divisive and do less attacking. If he were trying to win a 1v1 all along he would've been much more divisive and doing much more attacking.

          3 votes
          1. dubteedub
            Link Parent
            It is not a talking point, it was in fact his campaign's strategy, as evidenced in the articles that I linked above. They counted on Bernie's very intense and reliable base to provide him a solid...

            This talking point implies he was only trying to run a divisive platform aimed at winning a minority of the electorate.

            It is not a talking point, it was in fact his campaign's strategy, as evidenced in the articles that I linked above. They counted on Bernie's very intense and reliable base to provide him a solid 30% of the vote that he would ride to the Convention.

            1 vote
    2. [16]
      Diet_Coke
      Link Parent
      I appreciate your response and willingness to read (most of) the article. I have a lot of respect for you, even though we couldn't disagree more on this. I think it's the exact opposite. If it...

      I appreciate your response and willingness to read (most of) the article. I have a lot of respect for you, even though we couldn't disagree more on this.

      I think that this lays out that many of Bernie's strongest supporters online don't actually care about policy and are in this for a cult of personality.

      I think it's the exact opposite. If it were a cult of personality, then when we would all vote for Joe when Bernie said to. It's much more than that. Many Bernie supporters back him because he has been consistently right on the important issues for his entire political career. He has an authenticity that Biden doesn't have. IMO it's a reaction to the Obama presidency, where we were sold hope and change and the guy couldn't even jail a single banker for crashing the global economy for profit.

      I think downplaying the toxicity of online behavior is really disgusting and is a large reason why I would prefer Biden to Bernie.

      I think if your thought process is "well, climate change is real and needs to be seriously addressed, student loan debt is a massive problem, wealth inequality needs to be reigned in, and people shouldn't go into a lifetime of debt because they got sick...but some people said mean things online, so actually nevermind" then you were never that progressive in the first place.

      At this point the author is just admitting to telling straight up lies without any evidence to back up their arguments. ... Biden is already running on a platform that is left of Hillary in 2020. It is not a stretch to think he would go further left in the convention. Biden is also willing to compromise to a fault

      The only reason the party has been pulled leftward is the force of Bernie Sanders and his supporters. Without any real institutional power except for the delegates he won in 2016, he has forced a shift in the party line. That's real leadership. We've seen Joe is absolutely willing to compromise with Republicans, but will he move left? I voted for a progressive Obama and got a president who is to the right of Reagan, who spent 8 years pissing away political capital trying to compromise with Republicans only to get the football yanked away at the last minute. The thought of Biden doing the same thing for another 4 years makes me sick.

      Great job just completely ignoring the black electorate. Really dig into your ignorance there.

      I think they fit into the MSNBC set, Bernie still win among young people of all demographics.

      There is so much at stake in this election. The horrific response to the coronavirus so far by the Trump administration is just the latest in a long string of incompetence, negligence, and policies designed to hurt other Americans.

      That's the problem. There is so much at stake here, and Biden was forced on us. The party apparatus could have lined up behind Warren, which wouldn't have made anyone overjoyed but who would be able to appeal to both wings of the party. Instead they backed Joe Biden, who has done nothing to earn his wins. He didn't even campaign in most of the states he won. He hasn't offered a bold vision for anything. He just offers a return to the status quo that brought us Trump in the first place, and that's not enough.

      If Biden is the nominee in 2020 and you stay home, vote third party, or vote for Trump because you would rather have the country burn down so that some revolution will finally happy in America that will magically solve all your problems. By taking this action, you are saying I don't give a fuck if LGBT continue to be targeted by Trump, I don't give a fuck if muslims are attacked by his polices, I don't give a fuck about migrants, I don't give a fuck about anyone but me.

      If you backed Biden, you already made the exact same decision. Climate change is coming for us all, and those on the margins of society are going to feel it worst. By deciding to back the one candidate without a real plan, whose campaign is so enmeshed with Wall Street that Jamie fucking Dimon got floated as Secretary of Treasury, they've doomed us all. You and I don't get to die of old age anymore, we're going to die from climate change. Because some people sent snake emojis to Warren supporters on Twitter.

      FWIW I am planning to vote straight ticket D all the way down ballot, but like the article says - it's not about me, it's about that Latino voter with two undocumented parents who's never believed in a politician in their life. I'd wear out a pair of shoes knocking doors for Bernie. Hopefully the old people that voted for Biden are prepared to do the same, because that's what it's going to take.

      7 votes
      1. [12]
        Loire
        Link Parent
        This is a big reason why people disagree with Bernie supporters above and beyond the "snake emojis". Everything is "vote Bernie or you are literally killing me". Anytime the nuanced conversation...

        You and I don't get to die of old age anymore, we're going to die from climate change.

        This is a big reason why people disagree with Bernie supporters above and beyond the "snake emojis". Everything is "vote Bernie or you are literally killing me". Anytime the nuanced conversation breaks down it's literally "a vote for anyone but Bernie and we will all die".

        Yes we need to address climate change, yes America needs Medicare for All. No a vote for Biden isn't literally killing people.

        You say Biden didn't do anything for his wins, and yet Bernie couldn't even be bothered to make an appearance at Selma. While every hopeful was there marching Bernie was campaigning in bloody California. Biden's entire comeback was made possible by the black vote. What would have happened if Bernie put the effort in there?

        Bernie thought he could win with the youth vote an eschew African Americans, Suburbia and the MSNBC crowd. He was wrong and thus he lost. That's the end of the story.

        It's not every other Democrats fault that Biden compromised his way into a coalition. Thats politics. Thats literally politics almost everywhere in the west. Compromise is the grease that keeps democracy moving. If you want your next progressive candidate to win then maybe have her show up in Selma.

        5 votes
        1. [4]
          Diet_Coke
          Link Parent
          They hated Jesus because he spoke the truth. We're already locked into catastrophic climate change, we need drastic efforts right now to save what we can of society. That's not just Bernie...

          This is a big reason why people disagree with Bernie supporters above and beyond the "snake emojis". Everything is "vote Bernie or you are literally killing me".

          They hated Jesus because he spoke the truth. We're already locked into catastrophic climate change, we need drastic efforts right now to save what we can of society. That's not just Bernie supporters saying that, it's 98% of scientists that actually study the climate.

          Every other Democratic candidate was fighting for people who reliably vote Democratic in every election. Bernie was out there bringing in completely new voters who are going to be the future of politics.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            Loire
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            And how did that work out for him? Hi, yes, scientist in a field under the "Earth and Environmental Sciences" umbrella. Seen the data, had to learn it, fully understand it. The reality is, and a...

            very other Democratic candidate was fighting for people who reliably vote Democratic in every election. Bernie was out there bringing in completely new voters who are going to be the future of politics.

            And how did that work out for him?

            They hated Jesus because he spoke the truth. We're already locked into catastrophic climate change, we need drastic efforts right now to save what we can of society. That's not just Bernie supporters saying that, it's 98% of scientists that actually study the climate.

            Hi, yes, scientist in a field under the "Earth and Environmental Sciences" umbrella. Seen the data, had to learn it, fully understand it. The reality is, and a number of the scientists in that 98% understand this, that we can't just turn off our current economic reality, which is why they've been calling for change for at least 30 years, because it's a transition and not a switch. Bernie Sanders takes office tomorrow and that doesn't mean (ignoring the current pandemic and its effect on CO2 emissions) that we are suddenly on track to stop climate change. He can't make every house in America fully renewable in eight years. He can't get every working class person in a new electric vehicle in eight years. He bans cattle production and we buy our meat from elsewhere increasing their emissions. He bans oil extraction and we simply import it from other countries increasing their output.

            Now those are all extreme acts Bernie wouldn't be able to do without full control of the legislative branch, so I'm wondering how would Jesus have saved us from the catastrophe that awaits us.

            Just as a aside, Texas, Iowa and Oklahoma are the three top wind energy producers in the nation. I wonder how they got there without a Bernie.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              Diet_Coke
              Link Parent
              I think that's the wrong question to ask. Let's ask how well it worked out for Biden on November 4. It didn't work great for Clinton. Like they say, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago -...

              And how did that work out for him?

              I think that's the wrong question to ask. Let's ask how well it worked out for Biden on November 4. It didn't work great for Clinton.

              which is why they've been calling for change for at least 30 years, because it's a transition and not a switch

              Like they say, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago - the second best time is today. Unfortunately the lack of action in the past is going to necessitate drastic action. We're shutting down broad swathes of the economy for covid, the only reason we haven't done the same for climate change is that it's more difficult to understand the urgency.

              Now those are all extreme acts Bernie wouldn't be able to do without full control of the legislative branch

              We've seen the power of the regulatory state and executive power used by Trump. The fact is that a lot of power has been consolidated under the executive branch, and it can accomplish things that really should be only possible legislatively. Previoisly the Democratic Party has focused on the presidency, but Bernie has already inspired a wave of new candidates to run and win seats in Congress and local elections. That was just with a losing primary, a President Bernie would have an even bigger impact.

              Just as a aside, Texas, Iowa and Oklahoma are the three top wind energy producers in the nation. I wonder how they got there without a Bernie.

              Way slower and smaller scale than they would have if those governments weren't fossil fuel company subsidiaries.

              2 votes
              1. dubteedub
                Link Parent
                Despite the support from some big organizations, progressives did not flip a single seat in the 2018 midterm elections. The reason that we have a blue House right now is because moderate...

                Previously the Democratic Party has focused on the presidency, but Bernie has already inspired a wave of new candidates to run and win seats in Congress and local elections. That was just with a losing primary, a President Bernie would have an even bigger impact.

                Despite the support from some big organizations, progressives did not flip a single seat in the 2018 midterm elections. The reason that we have a blue House right now is because moderate candidates won in mixed districts and turned out suburban and black voters. The same coalition that Biden is replicating right now.

                On Super Tuesday this year, every single race endorsed by Justice Dems or Our Revolution lost.

                I think it is really valuable that so many new Democrats are running and winning office, but it will take a broad coalition of Democrats, centrists and leftists, to take back control of our government and move the country forward.

                3 votes
        2. [6]
          FZeroRacer
          Link Parent
          Counterpoint: Yes it is. Every day we go without fixing our broken medical system is a day where more Americans die because of it. Biden simply isn't going to fix it and I doubt he's even going to...

          Yes we need to address climate change, yes America needs Medicare for All. No a vote for Biden isn't literally killing people.

          Counterpoint: Yes it is. Every day we go without fixing our broken medical system is a day where more Americans die because of it. Biden simply isn't going to fix it and I doubt he's even going to try. I can hardly trust him to not lie for five seconds considering his last debate performance.

          And remember that during this entire time we're talking about primary voters. Not general voters. The general is a massively different field compared to the primary and if Biden does zero outreach to the youth vote, he will lose the general.

          4 votes
          1. [5]
            Loire
            Link Parent
            I find this dubious, even as "the youth" myself, seeing as how Bernie did reach out and they failed him miserably.

            The general is a massively different field compared to the primary and if Biden does zero outreach to the youth vote, he will lose the general.

            I find this dubious, even as "the youth" myself, seeing as how Bernie did reach out and they failed him miserably.

            2 votes
            1. [4]
              FZeroRacer
              Link Parent
              Again, as I have to constantly repeat apparently: The Primary is not the General Election. They are two separate things. The amount of voters that show up during the GE is an order of magnitudes...

              Again, as I have to constantly repeat apparently: The Primary is not the General Election.

              They are two separate things. The amount of voters that show up during the GE is an order of magnitudes greater than during the Primary and I would argue that the Primary tends to overvalue older voters. Simply because younger voters (for whatever reason) avoid turning out for primaries but come out for generals.

              The 'youth vote' (and the vote Bernie did generally well in) consisting of ages 18-39 was 36% of the total vote. Those people overwhelmingly came out in favor of the democrats, compared to 40+ which was instead in favor of Republicans.

              Biden cannot win if he alienates 36% of the voters, full stop.

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                dubteedub
                Link Parent
                How is Biden alienating younger voters?

                Biden cannot win if he alienates 36% of the voters, full stop.

                How is Biden alienating younger voters?

                2 votes
                1. Loire
                  Link Parent
                  By not literally being Bernie Sanders more or less.

                  By not literally being Bernie Sanders more or less.

        3. NaraVara
          Link Parent
          Bernie's failure to swallow his pride and suck up to Jim Clyburn is the "Hillary should have campaigned in Wisconsin" of 2016.

          Bernie's failure to swallow his pride and suck up to Jim Clyburn is the "Hillary should have campaigned in Wisconsin" of 2016.

          3 votes
      2. [3]
        dubteedub
        Link Parent
        Thank you DC, I appreciate your candor and thoughts on this as well. I think the cult of personality surrounding Bernie is mainly a belief that he is the only one that can bring about the change...

        I appreciate your response and willingness to read (most of) the article. I have a lot of respect for you, even though we couldn't disagree more on this.

        Thank you DC, I appreciate your candor and thoughts on this as well.

        I think it's the exact opposite. If it were a cult of personality, then when we would all vote for Joe when Bernie said to. It's much more than that. Many Bernie supporters back him because he has been consistently right on the important issues for his entire political career. He has an authenticity that Biden doesn't have. IMO it's a reaction to the Obama presidency, where we were sold hope and change and the guy couldn't even jail a single banker for crashing the global economy for profit.

        I think the cult of personality surrounding Bernie is mainly a belief that he is the only one that can bring about the change that is needed. Sanders has built a narrative that the Democratic establishment are all corporate shills that can not be trusted. Given this underlying narrative by Bernie and his campaign, it makes sense that so many of them think Biden is all but a Republican and no different than Trump. With a belief that Biden is the same as Trump (and now many saying Trump is in fact left of Biden), shows why so many of Bernie’s supporters want to take their ball home with them if he loses the nomination.

        I think if your thought process is "well, climate change is real and needs to be seriously addressed, student loan debt is a massive problem, wealth inequality needs to be reigned in, and people shouldn't go into a lifetime of debt because they got sick...but some people said mean things online, so actually nevermind" then you were never that progressive in the first place.

        I supported Warren first and foremost. I still think she was far and away the best candidate in the field, had the best and most progressive plans, and would have been the best President we could have had. Both Biden and Bernie were very far down my list of candidates.

        I think that Bernie would not be effective in passing any of his plans and has not had a history of getting major policies through Congress despite his long experience in the legislature.

        Biden may not be pushing for as strong policies as Bernie, but I think they are more likely to be passed. Biden has a long history of building support for his proposals by Democrats and Republicans alike, and despite several of them now being shown as incredibly negative and damaging at the time, it shows that he has the ability to get things done.

        We've seen Joe is absolutely willing to compromise with Republicans, but will he move left?

        Yes, and he already has moved left on many issues to Obama and other Democrats.

        ‘Moderate’ Joe Biden has moved way to the left -- Even if he defeats Bernie Sanders, the former vice president would be the most liberal Democrat ever nominated for president.

        Biden supports a public option, $15 minimum wage, supports the Green New Deal as part of his climate plan, has expanded his plan for free public college for families that make less than $125,000, supports Warren’s bankruptcy plan, and plenty of other progressive positions. They may not go as far as Bernie, but they are a huge improvement to our current system.

        I voted for a progressive Obama and got a president who is to the right of Reagan, who spent 8 years pissing away political capital trying to compromise with Republicans only to get the football yanked away at the last minute.

        Obama only had two years with control of the Presidency and Congress and passed the Affordable Care Act during that time. He was forced to compromise the remaining 6 years in office as the Tea Party had taken control of Congress. If we want a Democratic President to be able to pass policies, we have to continue turning out to vote in every single election, not just every four years.

        That's the problem. There is so much at stake here, and Biden was forced on us. The party apparatus could have lined up behind Warren, which wouldn't have made anyone overjoyed but who would be able to appeal to both wings of the party.

        The party did not hoist Biden on us. Voters did. Biden won South Carolina and other candidates lost their path to victory and dropped/endorsed.

        Bernie could have dropped out and endorsed Warren when she was polling as a frontrunner and then had a heart attack.

        Instead they backed Joe Biden, who has done nothing to earn his wins. He didn't even campaign in most of the states he won. He hasn't offered a bold vision for anything. He just offers a return to the status quo that brought us Trump in the first place, and that's not enough.

        I think this is assuming that people that voted for Biden were uninformed or didn’t know better.

        I would turn this around. Bernie has been running for five years and his coalition has shrunk.

        What has Bernie done to win over black voters?

        What has Bernie done to appeal to suburban voters?

        Why are less young people coming out to vote for him than in 2016?

        If you backed Biden, you already made the exact same decision. Climate change is coming for us all, and those on the margins of society are going to feel it worst. By deciding to back the one candidate without a real plan, whose campaign is so enmeshed with Wall Street that Jamie fucking Dimon got floated as Secretary of Treasury, they've doomed us all. You and I don't get to die of old age anymore, we're going to die from climate change. Because some people sent snake emojis to Warren supporters on Twitter.

        This tactic of Bernie supporters to say that “if you don’t vote for Bernie, then you are literally killing me” does not help your message.

        And it is not just the snake emojis. From what I have seen, the Bernie coalition is not inviting. There is no positive outreach. There is no attempt to bring people in. Even those that have turned to Bernie after backing other candidates are attacked because they should have listened to reason earlier.

        Not to mention that Biden does in fact have a climate plan and I believe he would listen to the experts and pass real climate legislation if we are able to take back the Senate and maintain the House.

        FWIW I am planning to vote straight ticket D all the way down ballot, but like the article says - it's not about me, it's about that Latino voter with two undocumented parents who's never believed in a politician in their life. I'd wear out a pair of shoes knocking doors for Bernie. Hopefully the old people that voted for Biden are prepared to do the same, because that's what it's going to take.

        I am very glad that there are reasonable Bernie supporters like yourself that are willing to continue supporting Democrats despite the nominee being not ideal. Again, I appreciate your thoughts on this and willingness to listen and discuss.

        I really do hope that the number of Bernie or Bust people are minimal and just have an incredibly outsized voice on platforms like Twitter and Reddit (/r/Sanders4President is completely unberable).

        The voting results so far have shown that progressive policies are the future and the younger electorate will move this country forward. I just worry that too many will take Bernie losing as a less a short-term setback but instead will make them cynical and disillusioned.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          Diet_Coke
          Link Parent
          That is pretty much true from what I've seen. They've all gotten fat on fossil fuel, Wall Street, and health insurance company money for too long. Obama wrote about it (I tried to Google the exact...

          Sanders has built a narrative that the Democratic establishment are all corporate shills that can not be trusted. Given this underlying narrative by Bernie and his campaign, it makes sense that so many of them think Biden is all but a Republican and no different than Trump.

          That is pretty much true from what I've seen. They've all gotten fat on fossil fuel, Wall Street, and health insurance company money for too long. Obama wrote about it (I tried to Google the exact wording my results are all conservative garbage for some reason) - the process of campaigning necessitates meeting with mainly wealthy people who are insulated from the world the rest of us have to live in. They have a certain mindset that he started to adopt, and there's no real way to fight it.

          Biden may not be pushing for as strong policies as Bernie, but I think they are more likely to be passed.

          That's even worse - see: the constant battle over ACA when there are more important things to do. If Obama had the political courage to push for M4A, or even just not drop single-payer at the first hint of resistance from corporatist Dems, we'd have a much stronger health system.

          He was forced to compromise the remaining 6 years in office as the Tea Party had taken control of Congress.

          Except Republicans were clearly acting in bad faith the entire time, for example after making many concessions in the ACA not a single republican voted for it. There was never any need to compromise with them.

          What has Bernie done to win over black voters?

          What has Bernie done to appeal to suburban voters?

          Why are less young people coming out to vote for him than in 2016?

          Bernie has strong criminal justice reform policies and would reduce the wealth inequality that disproportionately effects black Americans. Reducing wealth inequality, expanding access to healthcare, expanding access to higher education, all benefit black folks and folks that live in the suburbs, cities, and rural areas.

          As for younger people, I think it's a mix of very real voter suppression and many have had apathy drilled into their heads since they were babies.

          From what I have seen, the Bernie coalition is not inviting. There is no positive outreach. There is no attempt to bring people in.

          I have to say my experience is very different, but it's probably because I'm interacting with the campaign differently. Phonebanking is all about bringing in new people who want to volunteer. Canvassing was first to register new voters, then bring in new volunteers. That's the reason there's any campaign at all, massive effort to bring new people in.

          This tactic of Bernie supporters to say that “if you don’t vote for Bernie, then you are literally killing me” does not help your message.

          But it's true. These are life or death issues. There are many people who will die because they can't get insulin or because they can't get a surgery they need. Many, many, many will die because of climate change.

          Not to mention that Biden does in fact have a climate plan and I believe he would listen to the experts and pass real climate legislation if we are able to take back the Senate and maintain the House.

          I'm glad you are still capable of being optimistic, I think that faculty has been beaten out of me these last 11 years. I think it's more likely he'll listen to the fat cats with secret climate change bunkers and make some tepid actions that might marginally help but won't accomplish much in the grand scheme of things. Also importantly, I think we're less likely to win back the Senate with President Biden. People who voted for him are reliable Dems who will show up and vote for any D. Bernie's voters are new voters, who'd be easily convinced to vote down ticket to help him enact his policies.

          I really do think the number of Bernie or Busters is tiny. Most of us realize what's at stake here and I'll vote D just for the judges.

          I just worry that too many will take Bernie losing as a less a short-term setback but instead will make them cynical and disillusioned.

          I would just say that the second outcome is exactly what the establishment wants. They don't want us to be involved. They want us to sit back and vote in rubber-stamp elections.

          2 votes
          1. dubteedub
            Link Parent
            You realize that Obama pushed for single payer and it was stopped by Joe Lieberman right? Lieberman had just lost his Democratic primary and ran as an independent and won. That was not the...

            That's even worse - see: the constant battle over ACA when there are more important things to do. If Obama had the political courage to push for M4A, or even just not drop single-payer at the first hint of resistance from corporatist Dems, we'd have a much stronger health system.

            You realize that Obama pushed for single payer and it was stopped by Joe Lieberman right? Lieberman had just lost his Democratic primary and ran as an independent and won. That was not the Democrats who stopped single-payer, it was a right-wing Senator who was upset his party had shifted to the left and no longer wanted him. Because of Lieberman, we had to settle for the ACA in order to get anything. Was it perfect? Of course not, but it is undeniable ACA still helped tens of millions get health care and did a ton of good for this country.

            In fact, Obama and the Democrats did fight for healthcare and Pelosi wrangled the votes on it, even knowing that many of those who voted to pass it would lose their re-election. I think you drastically underestimate how hard folks like Nancy Pelosi worked to get the ACA passed.

            These were not decisions Pelosi took lightly or without understanding what most House Democrats wanted, said former Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), who infamously declared health care reform dead in early 2010, only for Pelosi and other party leaders to prove him wrong. There simply weren’t enough votes in Congress to pass a more progressive health care bill, and Pelosi knew it, he said.

            Frank and other veterans of the health care fight in 2009 and 2010 point out what the years since this bruising legislative battle, and a leftward shift within the Democratic Party, have obscured ― namely, that the reform effort nearly foundered on more than one occasion.

            The bill was widely assumed to be hopeless after Republican Scott Brown won a special election for the Senate seat of the late Democrat Edward Kennedy in January 2010. This deprived Democrats of the filibuster-proof majority that passed the upper chamber’s more moderate version of the health care bill ― and Pelosi was as responsible as anybody for figuring out a way to pass legislation in the aftermath.


            Bernie has strong criminal justice reform policies and would reduce the wealth inequality that disproportionately effects black Americans. Reducing wealth inequality, expanding access to healthcare, expanding access to higher education, all benefit black folks and folks that live in the suburbs, cities, and rural areas.

            Appealing to black voters is more than just criminal justice reform. Speaking to racial justice issues only from a lens of economic disparity and crime is exactly why Bernie does not have the support from that community. I think this is a good article that explains this further.

            Comprehensiveness: Sanders’ plan for black America reads like a first-year sociology student’s midterm project. While he hits the major talking points, they leave a lot to be desired. He relies heavily on the idea that his overall policies will improve the lives of America.

            Blind spots: Sanders doesn’t have any egregious blind spots in his platform because it consists mostly of listing the problems and saying: “I got this.”

            Intentionality: Here’s where Sanders’ problem lies. His black agenda is performative at best. It is devoid of the kind of specifics that he displays in his tax plans, his healthcare proposals and his income inequality policies. In interviews and in practice, he seems to regard issues of race as purely a class issue. And, while race is inextricably tied to economics and class, white supremacy is not a math problem. One has to be intentional about confronting it.

            Impact: If Sanders’ overall policies were enacted, low-income and middle-class black people would undoubtedly see an economic benefit. It is a plan that includes black people but it is not for black people.


            This tactic of Bernie supporters to say that “if you don’t vote for Bernie, then you are literally killing me” does not help your message.

            But it's true. These are life or death issues. There are many people who will die because they can't get insulin or because they can't get a surgery they need. Many, many, many will die because of climate change.

            Yes, and plans of other Democrats also address those issues just with different tactics.

            Saying “If you don’t support Bernie, then you are LITERALLY KILLING ME” is exhausting and does nothing to explain why those policies are important to you, how these policies would help you, or why anyone should vote with you or agree with you. Instead it is just a tactic to shut down the conversation and claim moral victory. It is not winning anyone to you cause by accusing other voters of literal murder. This should be extremely obvious.


            I'm glad you are still capable of being optimistic, I think that faculty has been beaten out of me these last 11 years. I think it's more likely he'll listen to the fat cats with secret climate change bunkers and make some tepid actions that might marginally help but won't accomplish much in the grand scheme of things. Also importantly, I think we're less likely to win back the Senate with President Biden. People who voted for him are reliable Dems who will show up and vote for any D. Bernie's voters are new voters, who'd be easily convinced to vote down ticket to help him enact his policies.

            I think it is hard to say that Bernie voters are new voters when they are simply not showing up at all.

            I really do think the number of Bernie or Busters is tiny. Most of us realize what's at stake here and I'll vote D just for the judges.

            I really hope so. The next couple years of SCOTUS are so extremely important and we already lost so much ground after losing in 2016.

            I just worry that too many will take Bernie losing as a less a short-term setback but instead will make them cynical and disillusioned.

            I would just say that the second outcome is exactly what the establishment wants. They don't want us to be involved. They want us to sit back and vote in rubber-stamp elections.

            I really don’t think that is true, but I recognize that there isn’t anything I can say to dissuade you of that view.

            1 vote
    3. reese
      Link Parent
      The author has written a single article on Medium. I found what I suspect is this individual's Twitter account, and it's clear to me you're probably wasting your time. The person who wrote the...

      The author has written a single article on Medium. I found what I suspect is this individual's Twitter account, and it's clear to me you're probably wasting your time. The person who wrote the piece does not represent long-time Bernie supporters like myself. He's flinging poo and you're flinging back. The rage is arresting, and I know that firsthand because I've been so guilty of getting so pissed at things I should have let pass.

      But then again, the author is extraordinarily divisive and danger follows. He probably does have enough influence to convince or galvanize some doofuses not to vote. To anyone who holds that view, this time around we know that Bernie had his chance. Nobody stole anything from him. Plus, he's had a massive impact on the conversation and future direction of the country. Accept where things stand. The number one priority is removing Trump from office. Right now the incompetent is mishandling a pandemic and lives are being lost as a result. This is not fear-mongering, it's reality.

      To the especially divisive and hurt Bernie supporters among us, I would remind you that progress is inevitable, it just takes time.

      2 votes
  2. moocow1452
    Link
    https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/3/17/21182149/jane-mcalevey-the-ezra-klein-show-labor-organizing Tangentially related, but it's an interview I listened to recently from the Ezra Klein Show from...

    https://www.vox.com/podcasts/2020/3/17/21182149/jane-mcalevey-the-ezra-klein-show-labor-organizing

    Tangentially related, but it's an interview I listened to recently from the Ezra Klein Show from Jane McAlevey and the difference between Organizing and Mobilizing. Her theory is that Bernie and Trump are fantastic Mobilizers that are able to take a group that want a thing and use themselves as a spearhead, where as Biden is better at getting people who don't agree to each other to work for a common cause through Organization. She best described as how a work union doesn't have a common set of morals but they do have a common set of goals.

    2 votes
  3. determinism
    Link

    Toward the end of a primary there is often talk to the effect that even if your candidate didn’t win, he changed the conversation, whatever that means, and might be able to whisper ideas in the winner’s ear or even to hold him accountable, whatever that means. This was a fantasy when it came to Hillary Clinton. It is a joke when it comes to Joe Biden. If Biden were the kind of candidate who could be pushed left, no one in the party leadership would have endorsed him. It doesn’t matter if he makes Free College for Some a plank of his platform, and it doesn’t help that he spent decades cultivating the image of a conservative’s kind of liberal.

    3 votes