47 votes

Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds

This topic is locked. New comments can not be posted.

18 comments

  1. tealblue
    Link
    Even this is a significant underestimate, operating on the assumption that all non-elderly adult males are Hamas. From the Haaretz article:

    Even this is a significant underestimate, operating on the assumption that all non-elderly adult males are Hamas. From the Haaretz article:

    As usual, the Health Ministry did not distinguish between combatants and civilians. Accordingly, for the purpose of the analysis I will factor in the weight of three groups that can be categorized as "noncombatants": minors aged 17 and under, men of 60 and above, and women.

    47 votes
  2. [3]
    g33kphr33k
    Link
    Wars are so stupid. Humans will never get along all the time we have imaginary rules created by invisible Gods that didn't write a darn thing. Then some crazy nut turns those lies in to a cult...

    Wars are so stupid. Humans will never get along all the time we have imaginary rules created by invisible Gods that didn't write a darn thing. Then some crazy nut turns those lies in to a cult level and pushes people in to doing stupid stunts like murdering people who don't look to fit in to their cultish behaviour.

    The ideology of Tildes is great - don't be an asshole. If that could be generally applied to all humans there would not be casualties of wars. Most wars end up being a dick measuring contest as it is: "We killed more of your people than you killed of ours!" It's so depressing.

    20 votes
    1. [2]
      JoshuaJ
      Link Parent
      Marked this as noise because while the sentiment is nice this is quite misguided. These issues are not primarily about conflict between two religious groups, nor is there dispute about religious...

      Marked this as noise because while the sentiment is nice this is quite misguided. These issues are not primarily about conflict between two religious groups, nor is there dispute about religious issues.

      14 votes
      1. g33kphr33k
        Link Parent
        I beg to differ: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975 What is Hamas and what does it want? Hamas is a Palestinian group which has run Gaza since 2007. The name is an acronym for...

        I beg to differ: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67039975

        What is Hamas and what does it want?
        Hamas is a Palestinian group which has run Gaza since 2007.

        The name is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya, which means Islamic Resistance Movement.

        The group wants to destroy Israel and replace it with an Islamic state.

        Its military wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, is thought to have about 30,000 members.

        Hamas has fought several wars with Israel since it took power, firing thousands of rockets into Israel and carrying out other deadly attacks.

        In response, Israel has repeatedly attacked Hamas with air strikes, sending in troops in 2008 and 2014.

        Hamas - or in some cases the al-Qassam Brigades - has been designated a terrorist group by Israel, the US, the EU and the UK, as well as other powers.

  3. [15]
    Comment removed by site admin
    Link
    1. [12]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [11]
        unkz
        Link Parent
        Probably because Hamas explicitly targeted civilians, unlike Israel which is generally going after military targets. Not to mention the fact that Hamas made a conscious choice to endanger...

        Probably because Hamas explicitly targeted civilians, unlike Israel which is generally going after military targets. Not to mention the fact that Hamas made a conscious choice to endanger civilians by hiding among them.

        11 votes
        1. [8]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [7]
            unkz
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            To a significant degree, I don’t disagree with this. This article makes many good points. Certainly Israel is killing a lot of civilians, but they clearly aren’t the only group to blame for this....

            Israeli military kills Palestinian civilians = Hamas's fault

            To a significant degree, I don’t disagree with this. This article makes many good points. Certainly Israel is killing a lot of civilians, but they clearly aren’t the only group to blame for this. Hamas actively causes civilian deaths on both sides to achieve their goals.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/columnists/hamas-war-israel-gaza.html?unlocked_article_code=1.FE0.gp68.2GTg-zILO9Hr&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share

            On Friday the Israeli government gave civilians in the northern Gaza Strip 24 hours to evacuate to the southern part of the territory, in anticipation of a major military offensive. Hamas, for its part, “told Gaza residents to stay put, despite Israel’s deadline,” Reuters reported the same day.

            Hamas also achieves practical and propagandistic goals by putting Palestinians in harm’s way. More civilians in combat zones mean more human shields for its forces. More dead and wounded Palestinians mean more sympathy for its side and more condemnation of Israel.

            That’s why Hamas turned Gaza’s central hospital into its headquarters during the 2014 conflict. It’s why it stored rockets in schools. It’s why it has used mosques to store guns. It’s why it fires rockets from Gaza’s densely populated areas. It does all this knowing that Israel, which has agreed to abide by the laws of war, tries to avoid hitting those targets — and, when it does hit them, that it will result in accusations of war crimes and diplomatic demands for restraint. Either way, Hamas gains an edge.

            8 votes
            1. [5]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [4]
                unkz
                Link Parent
                Are there any non-ad hominem criticisms of the specific excerpts that I selected?

                Are there any non-ad hominem criticisms of the specific excerpts that I selected?

                5 votes
                1. [4]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. [2]
                    wait_im_a_whale
                    Link Parent
                    I will address one point you made regarding a misunderstanding about what the international law says about war in and around hospitals. You state the following: Hospitals are protected, but not...

                    I will address one point you made regarding a misunderstanding about what the international law says about war in and around hospitals. You state the following:

                    Hamas commits war crimes by storing weapons in schools and hospitals and mosques, and when the Israeli military is "forced" to bomb those schools and hospitals and mosques, it's totally fine and not a war crime and actually justified and also a terrible tragedy that is entirely Hamas' fault.

                    Hospitals are protected, but not under all circumstances. Hamas’ use of hospitals to stage acts of war means that hospitals can be valid locations of military operations under certain circumstances. See the head ICC prosecutor’s comments:

                    in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes.

                    From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/17/can-hospitals-be-military-targets-international-law-israel-gaza-al-shifa

                    4 votes
                    1. [2]
                      Comment deleted by author
                      Link Parent
                      1. wait_im_a_whale
                        Link Parent
                        I did not quote those portions because they do not support your incorrect argument that, under international law, staging war from hospitals does not cause the hospital to lose its protected...

                        I did not quote those portions because they do not support your incorrect argument that, under international law, staging war from hospitals does not cause the hospital to lose its protected status. Under the circumstances in Gaza, the burden to prove that acts of war are staged from a given hospital is on the IDF, of course. That doesn’t mean that the IDF cannot engage in military operations after a hospital is used by Hamas troops. The burden as to who must prove what is not relevant to either of our points, because your longer original comment still misapprehends international law (and my cited quotation points that out more succinctly and in a more targeted way).

                        2 votes
                  2. unkz
                    Link Parent
                    I would argue that evaluating a piece of writing should extend to more than just the byline. The more important part is the actual content. This is whataboutism -- is this relevant to the argument...

                    what you're calling an "ad hominem" I would simply call "evaluating the source of a piece of writing". it's one of the foundational techniques of media literacy.

                    I would argue that evaluating a piece of writing should extend to more than just the byline. The more important part is the actual content.

                    so in the first paragraph, it's made clear that it's not just Hamas, it's also mosques.

                    This is whataboutism -- is this relevant to the argument that Hamas is intentionally putting civilians in harm's way? Any other reasons that Palestinians have are irrelevant, since the only point I am concerned with is Hamas' motivations -- which is gaining human shields, to make the invasion more difficult and to gain sympathetic press coverage due to civilian deaths.

                    people who listened to the Israeli military and fled northern Gaza into southern Gaza are now being told to flee southern Gaza.

                    Of course, since Israel intends to sweep the entire territory of Gaza. There should have been no expectation that they would be asked to move only once, so I'm unclear on what the point being made here is.

                    "forced to respond" is an interesting choice of words. "Hamas chooses" but "the IDF is forced to".

                    Yes, Israel is forced to respond since not responding will inevitably and immediately lead to more Israeli deaths. There's no meaningful choice here.

                    On the other hand, Hamas does not have to murder festival goers. There's no universe where their choice to commit this terrorist attack results preventing Palestinian deaths. Hamas was not forced to do this in any sense.

                    a single Israeli Merkava tank costs $6 million USD. Israel has 360 of them and another 300 more on-order. and that's just of the latest version, the Mark IV.

                    the Israeli Air Force has 39 F-35 fighters at a cost of $110 million per aircraft as of 2015

                    but gosh, Hamas spent $90 million (according to estimates from the Israeli military) building tunnels and that shows how bloodthirsty they are, at the expense of the civilian needs of their population.

                    This is apples to oranges. This figure of $90m covers a mere 32 tunnels -- At its peak, almost 2,500 tunnels running underneath the Egyptian border were used to smuggle in commercial goods, fuel and weapons by Hamas and other militant groups., and doesn't even get into the amount of money being spent on weapons. It's worth noting that the amount being spent on attacking Israel is even more significant when we consider the relative low economic output of Gaza. The diversion of the economy into pointless attacks on Israel is an even greater disservice to the Palestinians when placed in the context of their available cashflows.

                    do you agree with Stephens on this point?

                    Is my personal opinion relevant to the argument?

            2. [2]
              TreeFiddyFiddy
              Link Parent
              I would like to point out that the article you’re quoting is an opinion piece. These are somebody’s personal viewpoint and not objective reporting or actually any other type of reporting

              I would like to point out that the article you’re quoting is an opinion piece. These are somebody’s personal viewpoint and not objective reporting or actually any other type of reporting

              7 votes
              1. unkz
                Link Parent
                The excerpts I selected, and especially the parts that I boldfaced, were specifically not opinion based, and are as far as I know factual statements of Hamas intentionally doing things to put...

                The excerpts I selected, and especially the parts that I boldfaced, were specifically not opinion based, and are as far as I know factual statements of Hamas intentionally doing things to put civilians in harm's way.

                4 votes
        2. [3]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          It's easy to say you're going after military targets when you consider every adult male under 60 a military target.

          It's easy to say you're going after military targets when you consider every adult male under 60 a military target.

          33 votes
          1. [3]
            Comment removed by site admin
            Link Parent
            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              The fact that someone thinks using Israel's own numbers for how many civilians they're killing is "stirring the pot" is extremely indicative of what a warped perspective these people have of the...

              The fact that someone thinks using Israel's own numbers for how many civilians they're killing is "stirring the pot" is extremely indicative of what a warped perspective these people have of the conflict. Even if you take all of Israel's assumptions as fact and use the numbers from their own studies, it makes them look bad, so let's pretend 1400 dead in a terrorist attack is remotely similar to performing an ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

              26 votes
            2. public
              Link Parent
              From my perspective as an outsider, this feeling is mutual, and arguing over whether either side is justified in that feeling is moral grandstanding. Regardless of whether an opinion is correct,...

              These people are terrified [and] won’t feel safe until they have an ethnostate.

              From my perspective as an outsider, this feeling is mutual, and arguing over whether either side is justified in that feeling is moral grandstanding. Regardless of whether an opinion is correct, no one actually involved will care.

              The big difference is that Israel has the military power to create their ethnostate if they decide to go on an ethnic cleansing crusade while Hamas does not. A dead civilian is a dead civilian, regardless of whether the UN classifies it as the result of genocide, terrorism, or ethnic cleansing. So much online discussion eventually slips into the tone of “those dead civilians don't count because their nation did much worse things.”

              4 votes
    2. GenuinelyCrooked
      Link Parent
      How does killing more civilians make that situation better?

      How does killing more civilians make that situation better?

      26 votes
    3. skybrian
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I don't know what point you're trying to make, but according to Wikipedia:

      I don't know what point you're trying to make, but according to Wikipedia:

      Around 1,200 Israelis and foreigners were killed, which included 859 civilians, 283 soldiers, 57 policemen, and 10 Shin Bet members.

      20 votes
    4. boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      I thought there were soldiers killed at the border...

      I thought there were soldiers killed at the border...

      4 votes