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Daniel Penny jury deadlocked on manslaughter charge in subway chokehold case
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- Title
- Jury 'unable to come to a unanimous vote' on Daniel Penny manslaughter charge
- Authors
- ABC News
- Word count
- 96 words
On the one hand, I’m inclined to think that a former marine should know better than to hold on to a choke for 6 minutes, but on the other hand I have met people who have gone through US Army combatives and they were really only novices in grappling. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and I can see how he would have been concerned that letting go would have led to being attacked, especially if he didn’t know any safe transitions to safer pinning positions.
Edit: I posted this before watching the video. I have watched it now, and he holds the choke on an unconscious person for about 50 seconds, not 6 minutes, which is still bad.
Forgive my ignorance, but why would training for external conflict or war be at all concerned with the survival of their enemy combatants? I would expect that to be a concern for police[1] not Marines.
[1] I'm not saying it is nor am I saying the police is good okay? This is just an ideal expectation. Traumatized Americans, Please don't jump on me.
Military do all kinds of non-lethal actions -- handling security, dealing with protesters, dealing with other drunk soldiers, and so on. Part of their curriculum is a sort of scaled down version of brazilian jiujitsu, which in theory teaches some fairly non-lethal techniques, but of course training is of high variability. Some people get into it, but for some (most?) people it's just another mandatory course that they have to complete to get paid, like Microsoft Excel or truck maintenance.
I also know some police judo people, and they have a more explicitly non-lethal set of techniques. Choke holds are not taught at all in their gym.
Acquitted on all charges
Fucking infuriating. I really don't understand the jury in this case at all. Anyone who watched the video could clearly see how fucking unnecessary it was for Penny to continue to choke-hold Neely like he did, especially for as long as he did. There were two other large male passengers beside them both who were clearly ready to help restrain Neely as well, if necessary. But Penny just kept squeezing the shit out of his neck hard enough for him to completely lose consciousness and die, despite that. And it's not like Neely had been violent, or had a weapon. Sure, maybe there wasn't any intent to kill him, so murder charges don't make sense... but at the VERY LEAST, that is still negligent homicide or manslaughter. WTF? How the hell does he walk away without any consequences for negligently ending another man's life completely unnecessarily?
According to the eyewitnesses, he was yelling about:
https://www.thefp.com/p/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-f-train-bodycam-video
It's pretty clear the guy was dangerous, and for the majority of the time the guy was actively struggling (and therefore not at any risk). I just think Penny didn't have great training.
He should have recognized when Neely went out quicker -- he went out at about 2:28:33 and got let go at 2:29:21, so about 50 seconds. Also, better training would have probably meant a safer pin rather than hanging on his neck the entire time. That said...
That's a while, but honestly I was at a competition last month where a competitor went out and not only did the guy holding the choke not notice, the referee didn't even notice. He was out for a solid 25 seconds before someone in the crowd got the referee's attention and they stopped the match. So, this is a scenario with a trained person performing the choke, a trained person watching, and at least two dozen trained spectators, and it still went a bit off the rails. Compare that to a scenario where you've got a casual faced with an actual threat surrounded by random scared people.
I am aware of what Neely said beforehand, and how he was behaving, but IMO that still doesn't justify what happened to him. And even if Penny was merely trying to prevent him from hurting anyone, and holding him until the police arrived, he still shouldn't have put him in a choke-hold. There are plenty of ways to pin and hold someone without cutting off blood flow to their brain, or their oxygen supply!
And even with a choke-hold he didn't need to hold so tightly that Neely asphyxiated. Especially with multiple other people around who were clearly willing to help hold him until the police arrived. But he chose to go for a rear naked choke, and he chose do it tight enough it cut off Neely's breathing and/or bloodflow which resulted in his death, hence why negligent homicide feels entirely appropriate.
And for the record, I also trained in BJJ as well. And in a competition choke-hold the whole point is to do exactly that, cut the blood flow and/or oxygen supply off to get your opponent to tap out or pass out.... but nobody in a real life situation is going to tap out, and cutting off blood/oxygen when your goal isn't just to get someone to tap, and there is no ref around to tell you when the person is out cold is dangerous as hell. So the situations are not comparable, AT ALL, and nothing you said in any way justifies Penny being acquitted, IMO.
This reminds me of people who ask why the police don't just shoot people in the arm or leg.
The choke hold is what he had to work with -- did he know enough to do something better? We don't know. What we know is he was holding someone down who was a threat and was actively trying to escape. The consequences of him escaping are hard to predict -- but I certainly wouldn't want to find out.
For comparison, we saw Leandro Lo just recently get killed after letting an attacker go. He took him down, pinned him, and then released him, only to pretty much immediately get shot to death for being nice enough to let him up.
I am well aware of how impossible trying to shoot someone in the arm or leg is. I have never expected cops to do that for exactly that reason. But again that is not comparable to this situation, since NOT completely choking someone out is not impossible.... it's not even that hard to do. You just lock your arms in place and don't constrict them. And it doesn't matter if that choke-hold is all he knew how to do. His negligence in applying it resulted in someone's death. And that is literally what negligent homicide charges are designed for.
And I also never said he should have released him! You can still hold someone down without doing what Penny did. So again you're just trying to use another situation that isn't comparable in order to justify this shit.
p.s. I'm ignoring this topic now, because this shit is genuinely pissing me off.
Well, I guess I disagree. I guess you won’t be reading this, but for anyone else in the thread, here’s my thinking.
If all he has is a rear naked choke grip, then holding it loosely isn’t really a great option. They can fairly easily wriggle out. He would have had much better and safe control from the back if he were using a sliding collar/seatbelt or double under grips on his armpits but you can see that his choice of grips doesn’t give him great upper body control. When the guy struggles to escape, he really only has one option besides abandoning the position and that is squeezing harder.
You articulated things well unkz. cfabbro seems young and hotheaded.
I've never had the impression of cfabbro as young.
Doesn't sound like you know cfabbro very well.
I practice jiu jitsu.
Anyone who has ever deal with any level chokes performed on someone else, to themselves in a combat sport knows it doesn't take long for someone to pass out.
Even a novice white belt can make a non-resisting partner pass out within 10 seconds. And no, for those wondering, it doesn't have to be perfectly dialed in for it to work. Mostly symmetrical compression on the sides of the neck is all it takes.
During a one on one training class, I made a black belt pass out in 4 seconds. To me it was obvious when he became dead weight. So the difference between a sloppy choke by an amateur and a precisely dialed in choke under the coaching of a master is mere seconds. Granted, without resistance.
To someone who is resisting, once you have an arm around their neck, it usually never takes longer than 30 seconds to knock someone out with a rear naked choke. I'm ready to tap within 10-15 seconds on a sloppy one I have hooks under. Penny had people helping him hold the guy down.
After a minute of cutting off blood circulation to the brain, you're already risking issues.
5 minutes is fucking murder.
It was actually about 50 seconds of being unconscious before Penny let go, not 5 minutes. He was entirely conscious and fighting before that.
One thing to keep in mind is that people still make noises and sometimes go into involuntary spasms/become reactive to sensations even when passed out. Yes, eyes open and all.
I haven't watched the video and not sure if I would be able to. (The whole concept of 'WatchPeopleDie' and its related subs just churns my stomach.) The reports said that he was being continuously choked for 5 to 6 minutes along with bystanders saying to let go.
Suppose he was fully conscious after 3 minutes. With assistance of bystanders, clearly visible in the photograph of the article linked here, it wouldn't have been difficult to put him in a crucifix or roll him over and hold with an armbar or wristlock. Why keep an arm around the neck for that long? There are ways to safely retain someone, especially with other people helping. Any type of choke is not one of those ways.
5 minutes with an arm tightly wrapped around the neck is irresponsible as fuck.
I have actually watched the video and also posted it in this thread, so I guess you’ll have to take my word for it if you won’t watch it but that is not what happened.
I doubt 99% of the population even knows the words you are using here, much less is able to operationalize them under pressure. Yes, there are much safer pins available. No, he didn’t use them, and that probably because he was not well trained in doing so.
People seem to be looking at this as if he were some kind of BJJ expert who had a ton of tools at his disposal, but he's just some guy with what may only be a small amount of training trying his best to control a violent insane person and keep the people on the train safe.
To me it seems "tragic" but if I'm being stoically honest with myself, if it was my wife with the baby stroller that Neely was menacing I'd want someone to do something like what Penny did there. He didn't step onto that train looking for a fight. If there was some element of pre-meditated vigilantism there, I'd say throw the book at him. He responded to a life-and-death situation someone else precipitated.
I'm confused, last I looked accidentally killing someone was still a crime. All charges acquitted is beyond the pale.
There’s always exceptions, like self defense.
Juries face no penalties for a wrong answer in our legal system.
This is why people talk about jury nullification
manslaughter charge dropped after two divided juries