38 votes

‘They basically saw a black man with a gun’: Police kill armed guard while responding to call

15 comments

  1. [9]
    Hypersapien
    Link
    The vast majority of police departments in the US have virtually no de-escalation training. In fact, there are police officers who have been punished by their departments for attempting to...

    The vast majority of police departments in the US have virtually no de-escalation training.

    In fact, there are police officers who have been punished by their departments for attempting to de-escalate a situation instead of just shooting.

    This needs to change for everyone's sake.

    27 votes
    1. [6]
      Gaywallet
      Link Parent
      There's also no rules of engagement or formal conflict escalation. In the military you would get a court martial for behavior like this because there was no threat. In my mind there's 3 things...

      There's also no rules of engagement or formal conflict escalation. In the military you would get a court martial for behavior like this because there was no threat.

      In my mind there's 3 things that need to happen to fix police officer issues in America:

      1. More training
      2. Body cams for every police officer to hold them accountable and prevent them from lying to cover their friends
      3. Formal rules of engagement - ideally they should copy the military's

      I am more than happy to pay more on my taxes to ensure all three are met.

      21 votes
      1. [5]
        BlackLedger
        Link Parent
        I think there needs to be a Federal "No Badge" list for the bad eggs. Basically, all of these cops that resign or are fired from one department, only to be hired again by the department in the...

        I think there needs to be a Federal "No Badge" list for the bad eggs. Basically, all of these cops that resign or are fired from one department, only to be hired again by the department in the next town over, should be on this list. No one on the list is eligible to work in any capacity in Federal law enforcement (FBI, ATF, etc), and no department that employs a person on the No Badge list is eligible for any Federal subsidies or support.

        11 votes
        1. [4]
          Gaywallet
          Link Parent
          A formal rules of escalation will allow civilians to sue and win. Currently a supreme court ruling lets them get away with "I was scared, in the moment, therefore the shooting was justified". This...

          A formal rules of escalation will allow civilians to sue and win. Currently a supreme court ruling lets them get away with "I was scared, in the moment, therefore the shooting was justified". This will no longer be the case. If their reputation and finances are on the line for a bad cop, they won't be hiring them anyhow.

          I do like the idea of a no badge list, but I think it's not necessary with an appropriate restructuring of laws and policies for our law enforcement agencies.

          8 votes
          1. [2]
            BlackLedger
            Link Parent
            I certainly agree with establishing a formal set of rules for escalation (I would almost want to use the term "rules of engagement" but that undermines the idea by reinforcing this stupid...

            I certainly agree with establishing a formal set of rules for escalation (I would almost want to use the term "rules of engagement" but that undermines the idea by reinforcing this stupid warrior-cop mentality that is a huge part of the problem). Frankly, if the only standard for police officers is that they are able to "get home safe", then the safest case would be to lay them off so that they never leave home and never need to worry about it. The whole attitude needs to change - the job is one of ensuring public safety first and the personal safety of officers second.

            6 votes
            1. papasquat
              Link Parent
              We have a term already in use in the military. RUF = Rules for the Use of Force. ROEs are for wartime against possible active combatants. RUFs are used for civil peacekeeping.

              We have a term already in use in the military. RUF = Rules for the Use of Force. ROEs are for wartime against possible active combatants. RUFs are used for civil peacekeeping.

              9 votes
          2. roboticide
            Link Parent
            RadioLab's More Perfect series had a very interesting episode on this. And while it'd certainly be a good idea to revisit this decision or pass new legislation or policies to address this problem,...

            Currently a supreme court ruling lets them get away with "I was scared, in the moment, therefore the shooting was justified".

            RadioLab's More Perfect series had a very interesting episode on this.

            And while it'd certainly be a good idea to revisit this decision or pass new legislation or policies to address this problem, I wouldn't bank on that happening anytime soon. The Supreme Court doesn't like reversing their earlier decisions, and with the current administration and Congress, I would be shocked if new laws are passed any time soon. Our best chance yet was under Obama, and best we really got was bodycams.

            5 votes
    2. [2]
      Luna
      Link Parent
      It certainly doesn't help that police get it drilled into them that every traffic stop they make could end up with them getting killed. Law enforcement do have reason to keep their guard up, but...

      It certainly doesn't help that police get it drilled into them that every traffic stop they make could end up with them getting killed. Law enforcement do have reason to keep their guard up, but they're basically taught to always be hyper-paranoid, then that they need to stop drawing their weapons so quickly.

      10 votes
      1. Hypersapien
        Link Parent
        I think there's a parallel to certain political groups who, although they might have legitimate grievances, go completely off the deep end because of the echo chamber they confine themselves to.

        I think there's a parallel to certain political groups who, although they might have legitimate grievances, go completely off the deep end because of the echo chamber they confine themselves to.

        4 votes
  2. [5]
    dubteedub
    Link
    This is so sad and frustrating. Just like Philando Castille, Jemel Roberson was in legal possession of a gun and did exactly what he was supposed to do, he even saved many lives by stopping the...

    This is so sad and frustrating. Just like Philando Castille, Jemel Roberson was in legal possession of a gun and did exactly what he was supposed to do, he even saved many lives by stopping the actual gunman, but was still shot down by the police.

    I am just baffled how poorly trained, if not outright racist, our nations police force are. It seems like so many of them see a black person and immeadiately assume the worst.

    I am reminded frequently that the FBI warned law enforcement over a decade ago that white supremacists were infiltrating police forces across the country, and I hate to admit that I think they have been very successful in that.

    FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed?

    24 votes
    1. [4]
      Pilgrim
      Link Parent
      Halon's Razor: "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by stupidity"

      Halon's Razor: "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by stupidity"

      8 votes
      1. [3]
        dubteedub
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        And Occam's razor says the simplest solution tends to be the correct one When you have countless incidents of racial violence by the police, the FBI is sending out warnings that white supremacists...
        • Exemplary
        32 votes
        1. [2]
          papasquat
          Link Parent
          I don't know if it's as simple of an issue as you make it out to be. I tend to believe that everyone is racist to some degree. People may not hold the conscious belief that one race is better than...

          I don't know if it's as simple of an issue as you make it out to be. I tend to believe that everyone is racist to some degree. People may not hold the conscious belief that one race is better than another, but everyone has internal biases that they either consciously or unconsciously work against. There's nothing that can be done about those biases except for consciously working against them. It's pure reptile-brain instinct to distrust those that look different from you. In addition, many times, police get those in built biases reinforced because of the nature of their work. They routinely respond to the poorest, most crime ridden, and least advantaged areas in a given city, and for most cities, those areas are overwhelmingly black. Thus, black people are over-represented in their day to day dealings. That experience, plus internal biases are a deadly combination for innocent black people.
          I don't think most cops are consciously racist. That is, I don't think that they muse that the white race is superior on a conscious level. I do think that all of them have unconscious biases, and some of them do an extremely bad job of consciously thinking about and countering those biases. Of course as the links you posted show, there are bonafide white nationalists within the ranks of police, which is obviously unacceptable, but they don't account for the majority of unjustified shootings of black people, and focusing solely on them is widely missing the mark. Bias needs to be accepted as a natural and unavoidable phenomenon, training needs to be given to consciously counter it, leadership needs to have frank conversations about it with their subordinates, and officers that display evidence that they're doing a poor job of countering it need to be taken off the line and retrained, or disciplined.
          I think the focus on white supremacist "infiltration" is a more titillating story, but ultimately is not really what's going on in most cases.

          13 votes
          1. elcuello
            Link Parent
            This is the kind of reasoning I miss in the world right now. I'm not saying you're right or wrong but these are very valid points that needs to be heard and may not be pleasant for everybody but...

            This is the kind of reasoning I miss in the world right now. I'm not saying you're right or wrong but these are very valid points that needs to be heard and may not be pleasant for everybody but certainly not outrage-worthy.

            2 votes
  3. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. Deimos
      Link Parent
      Can you give a brief summary of it or explain why it's specifically worth watching? I'd rather not watch somebody ramble into the camera for 9 minutes unless it's especially insightful.

      Can you give a brief summary of it or explain why it's specifically worth watching? I'd rather not watch somebody ramble into the camera for 9 minutes unless it's especially insightful.

      2 votes