Exactly. In my opinion the correct course of action is to document the Nazis marching in DC, and otherwise ignore them in person. edit: As this thread was locked while I slept, this is the only...
Exactly. In my opinion the correct course of action is to document the Nazis marching in DC, and otherwise ignore them in person.
edit: As this thread was locked while I slept, this is the only way for me to respond.
I hate fascists. My grandmother told me that she was raped by Nazis in Poland during WWII. I want to do unspeakable things to all proven marching fascists. If it ever comes down to a pitched battle, I will be there. I totally misspoke in my original curt comment here, I wish I could take it back. I have marched multiple times against what I thought was wrong.
I also went off the handle a bit here because I conflated "anti-fascists" with "antifa." This was my mistake, however I do stand by most of my statements down-thread. We need to re-normalize being against fascism. As it stands, the most popular news channel in the USA, Fox News, uses "antifa" as a straw man to paint anyone standing against their right-wing leader as some sort of terrorist. This is due to a few dumb asses or agents provocateurs in Berkley and in Portland, being dumb asses. While I completely messed up my original statement in this comment, of course I stand with all non-violent, anti-Nazi protestors. I just think that "antifa" is a very tarnished brand and needs to be destroyed for all us normal people to support winning the war in the media. Upon reflection this was not the appropriate Tildes Topic to make that argument.
I wish that I could reply to @hungariantoast: I do agree with everything you said except:
a dozen masked "antifa thugs"
That is my entire point in this thread. Those "thugs" devalue all of the other peaceful protestors. A historical analog would be that looking back, Malcolm X (who was a badass) was used as the "enemy" by the right, and accomplished little in the big picture. Meanwhile MLK was non-violent and is remembered by history as the one who actually accomplished something.
edit2: I feel that my editing of this comment is "not fair" in the sense of a conversation. I also dislike locking threads from a user POV. If you have anything to say in response to my first edit, please DM me and I will add your response to another edit.
Here's the thing about why I won't lift a finger for antifa. People get shit wrong. All the time. They accuse others of being things that the other is not. All the time. Justifying a hate crime...
Here's the thing about why I won't lift a finger for antifa.
People get shit wrong. All the time. They accuse others of being things that the other is not. All the time. Justifying a hate crime against a Mexican marine because he "might" be a fascist is not only counterproductive, it's prima facia absurd.
It is absolutely fucking horseshit for anyone to think that behavior is okay (and I'm not saying you see it as okay either, but it's something that antifa supporters have to grapple with if they're going to be okay with the "punching nazis" motif they support so fervently).
What happens when antifa does shit like this? It radicalizes populations to oppose them. It makes it harder to oppose fascism because idiot asshole decided to punch someone he didn't like instead of having an honest to god conversation first before deciding the other person is a hated enemy.
I hope you understand that I do not want a fascist society any more than you do. But they will sooner prove empirically that god exists before I lift a finger to support a trigger happy antifa asshole.
violence is not the only thing antifa does and it's weird to me that a large number of people here seem to think that's the case even though they'll gladly point out certain media narratives in...
I hope you understand that I do not want a fascist society any more than you do. But they will sooner prove empirically that god exists before I lift a finger to support a trigger happy antifa asshole.
violence is not the only thing antifa does and it's weird to me that a large number of people here seem to think that's the case even though they'll gladly point out certain media narratives in really any other circumstance. like, if you make or print off anti-nazi flyers; organize and publicize information about fascists or what they do or raise community awareness about the issue or deplatform nazis or whatever, that's antifascism. antifa as a concept is not violence and only violence and never has been--really, anything that disrupts fascism would constitute that.
It's because RW disinformation campaigns have been so successful; Antifa has a genuinely awesome history, kind of odd that they can't get that into the Overton Window.
It's because RW disinformation campaigns have been so successful; Antifa has a genuinely awesome history, kind of odd that they can't get that into the Overton Window.
people like to blame the right-wing for shit like this but i think the bigger problem when it comes to things like this is the liberal media, actually. conservatives are going to conservative; i...
It's because RW disinformation campaigns have been so successful
people like to blame the right-wing for shit like this but i think the bigger problem when it comes to things like this is the liberal media, actually. conservatives are going to conservative; i expect fox news to stand up for someone like andy ngo because he's /theirguy/ and it's whatever because that's what you get when you employ hannity and carlson and that's what their viewers want--i don't expect fucking jake tapper from CNN though to fold like a wet noodle on the ngo issue and start acting like antifa is out here literally killing journalists because ngo got a few bruises when the media regularly gets threatened by people at trump rallies and CNN's been repeatedly threatened with actual bombs by conservatives just in the past year. conservative media might start shit like this, but the liberal media skips in lockstep with it too and gives it an order of magnitude more power than it might have otherwise.
The flipside of your argument is that the Antifa are also protecting people from the alt-right and preventing them from outright killing people [1]. I guess Heather should've just had a nice...
The flipside of your argument is that the Antifa are also protecting people from the alt-right and preventing them from outright killing people [1]. I guess Heather should've just had a nice conversation with the guy running her down?
What you're arguing for is essentially allowing the alt-right to go out and kill people unopposed. Especially when you have members of the police shielding them and their crimes. I'm not going to defend racist pieces of shit using protests as an opportunity for violence, but I will say it's amazing to see people argue that they don't want to see a fascist society while letting it grow unabated and letting them kill people.
I'm also incredibly skeptical about your source because I literally cannot find a neutral source reporting on the incident. All of the search results are heavily biased or come from far-right sites, I can't find an actual sentencing and neither can I find the individuals represented in said story. I'm not going to doubt that the Antifa do get shit wrong because that's the nature of the internet but at the same time, people treat the Antifa like they're literally the same as the alt-right.
Abso-fucking-lutely not, and the idea you could possibly think that is outrageous. I expect you will apologize if you want this conversation to be civil.
What you're arguing for is essentially allowing the alt-right to go out and kill people unopposed.
Abso-fucking-lutely not, and the idea you could possibly think that is outrageous. I expect you will apologize if you want this conversation to be civil.
Civility is not comparing the Antifa to the Rape of Nanjing, genocide or essentially calling them all secret racists looking for a fight. And I'm calling you out because this seems to be a...
Civility is not comparing the Antifa to the Rape of Nanjing, genocide or essentially calling them all secret racists looking for a fight.
And I'm calling you out because this seems to be a continually one-sided argument where people wax poetic about the Antifa being a terrible danger to our society while the alt-right is, again, literally killing people or indoctrinating people and getting away with it. I'm all for calling out the shitheads that get violent. But I'm not going to put my head in the sand and hope that the alt-right will go away if our system which chooses to focus on 'Black Identity Extremists' and which conveniently loses information on places like Stormfront is going to wake up and fix the problem before it gets worse.
And if you think it's an actual problem, then I encourage you to go out and protest. If you do, even non-violently? That means you're 'antifa', and a free target for the alt-right. Don't be surprised if you get assaulted by the Proud Boys and the police sit on their asses meanwhile.
Look, you literally accused me of supporting an asshole from Maumee (very close to my hometown) running into a crowd of otherwise peaceful protestors and killing a woman while harming many others....
Look, you literally accused me of supporting an asshole from Maumee (very close to my hometown) running into a crowd of otherwise peaceful protestors and killing a woman while harming many others. If you can't see why I might see that as a personal attack, then there is absolutely nothing to be gained by my engaging you in any way.
The idea that you think I will be in any mental state to read what you're saying after you say something like that to me is testament to your own tone deaf and insulting behavior.
And this is exactly the problem with people that consider themselves Antifa. This higher than thou attitude has been used countless times throughout history to commit atrocity after atrocity. You...
That's why, and I'm sorry to say this, but I just can't take you or anyone else seriously when people say they don't or won't support antifa because someone took something too far.
And this is exactly the problem with people that consider themselves Antifa. This higher than thou attitude has been used countless times throughout history to commit atrocity after atrocity. You know the Rape of Nanjing and the genocide on the Vendee were done with noble intentions too, I'm sure. It's fine though, because the other were the enemy.
You want to wrap yourself in a cloak of violence? Fine. But you will deserve punishment for it. I have no greater sympathy for Sinn Fein in Ireland when they were wrapping themselves in the cloak of the IRA. Nor for the Unionist terrorists bombing people they think are catholics on the other side.
You want to think that you're helping pursue an anti-fascist cause with this nonsense? Well, you're alienating people like me protecting people like that. I want people who engage in that violence jailed. I don't give a shit who is committing that violence. I believe in the rule of law, the prosecution of people who engage in violence for unjust causes, and maybe even the death penalty for assholes like that guy from Maumee who ran his car into a crowd of protestors. My rage against the violent is not ideologically driven.
I do not like it when people punch actual fascists either. Why? Because it makes more people on the fences get OFF the fences, and many of those won't be jumping down on your side. The ideal goal of a project like this should be to maximize the amount of allies on your side and minimize the amount of enemies.
People who engage in violence to pursue political ends should be prosecuted. People who try to protect those who engage in violence to pursue political ends are not to be trusted. People who would so callously call for ideological war do not care about the innocent or vulnerable. They would seem to care more about their own self-righteousness.
You can't take me seriously though, so I don't even know why I wrote this. Fuck me, I guess.
I think it's a little unfair to genericize the term when it isn't necessarily used for any act of antifascism. If I write an antifascist piece or something else distant and indirect, that's not...
I think it's a little unfair to genericize the term when it isn't necessarily used for any act of antifascism. If I write an antifascist piece or something else distant and indirect, that's not typically considered an "antifa article" by anyone else or myself. It's a term and a banner typically reserved for on-the-ground, practical work and I think we risk starting a worthless argument about what "counts" as antifa where we could instead just talk about the real actions of people. Antifa is a loose banner, but that doesn't mean we should ignore how it's actually used in favor of saying "antifa is all antifascism!"
But, importantly, that's still not only punching Nazis and I of course agree with your conclusion.
EDIT: This was addressed by hungariantoast's edits.
I think that their ranks must be filled with agents provocateurs, and the rest are people who are too narrow minded to see the big picture, just want to cause havoc (rail against the system,) and...
I think that their ranks must be filled with agents provocateurs, and the rest are people who are too narrow minded to see the big picture, just want to cause havoc (rail against the system,) and punch fascists. I think a lot people can identify with the last part and it is probably alluring.
If antifa was to do something smart, a few leaders would take their masks off, turn themselves in (or just have a press conference) and say that "we take responsibility for our actions (which is almost nothing) and we now recognize that the vast majority of Americans are against fascism."
As it is, they are the perfect dehumanized straw man for fascists to use when they peddle propaganda to mainstream conservatives.
i cannot express this enough: antifa has no leaders. it is not an organization. it is barely even a movement. it's literally a bunch of people who get together and rebuke fascism, and sometimes...
If antifa was to do something smart, a few leaders would take their masks off,
i cannot express this enough: antifa has no leaders. it is not an organization. it is barely even a movement. it's literally a bunch of people who get together and rebuke fascism, and sometimes it's "organized" and other times it's spontaneous but there's zero consistency because it can be anybody or nobody or radical leftists or milquetoast liberals. if you are talking about "leaders" of antifa, you have no idea what antifa is and need to just stop.
Which is exactly why they are a perfect propaganda tool for the fascists. I don’t care about the semantics or their hierarchy. All it takes is a few of them to say they are “leaders” and go on...
Which is exactly why they are a perfect propaganda tool for the fascists. I don’t care about the semantics or their hierarchy. All it takes is a few of them to say they are “leaders” and go on Anderson Cooper.
This is a battle for hearts and minds, people hiding behind masks don’t win that battle of messaging.
Edit: to add, occupy was a leaderless network and what did they accomplish?
Being virulently against fascism should be re-normalized. It should not be in the hands of a bunch of faceless edgelords.
y'know, i really feel like people who speak about antifa having "leaders" when it barely even constitutes a decentralized organization or who act like it's some wing of the vast putinian...
Which is exactly why they are a perfect propaganda tool for the fascists
y'know, i really feel like people who speak about antifa having "leaders" when it barely even constitutes a decentralized organization or who act like it's some wing of the vast putinian conspiracy to undermine america should probably not be talking about whether or not they're a "perfect propaganda tool" for fascists when fascists literally regularly get disrupted by anti-fascists, and anti-fascist actions have been responsible for a large slate of fascists losing institutional power wherever they have it or outright hanging up their outreach efforts and going underground.
Disrupting demonstrations accomplishes very little in the big picture. Being anti fascist should be wining in the court of public opinion/media on a regular basis as it is the moral high ground....
Disrupting demonstrations accomplishes very little in the big picture. Being anti fascist should be wining in the court of public opinion/media on a regular basis as it is the moral high ground. When was the last time antifa was able to accomplish that?
well, aside from the part where disrupting demonstrations led to the biggest PR disaster for fascism in this country in recent history and broke their institutional strength in a way they're still...
Disrupting demonstrations accomplishes very little in the big picture.
well, aside from the part where disrupting demonstrations led to the biggest PR disaster for fascism in this country in recent history and broke their institutional strength in a way they're still recovering from at charlottesville. and the part where richard spencer hung up his speaking tour because of anti-fascist disruption. and the part where events like patriot prayer and unite the right are increasingly tiny and fascists are now having to resort to functional or literal paramilitaries to do anything at all. can you name the last time fascists had a serious, genuine rally where they weren't either outnumbered or where they put on a serious display of force? probably not, and there's a reason why--it's certainly not because disrupting demonstrations does nothing and they're really just all busy or something. meeting people who thrive on force with stronger force tends to put them in their place, and by all accounts that's what's happened to the institutional power of most fascist groups in this country because of anti-fascists opposing them constantly.
It was normal people who are against facism that did that, the big defeat was the fact that one of Nazis murdered a peaceful protestor, and was convicted of murder. Was Hether Heyer part of...
aside from the part where disrupting demonstrations led to the biggest PR disaster for fascism in this country in recent history and broke their institutional strength..
It was normal people who are against facism that did that, the big defeat was the fact that one of Nazis murdered a peaceful protestor, and was convicted of murder. Was Hether Heyer part of "antifa"? Not as far as know, I may be wrong.. am I?
by all accounts that's what's happened to the institutional power of most fascist groups in this country because of anti-fascists opposing them constantly.
Maybe I am uninformed, but "by all accounts" is quite the passionate and unequivocal statement. Can you please provide some sourcing for these accounts?
those normal people are otherwise known as... wait for it... antifa! there's really nothing special that distinguishes antifascists from normal people, lol. i'm going to take a wild guess and say...
It was normal people who are against facism that did that,
those normal people are otherwise known as... wait for it... antifa! there's really nothing special that distinguishes antifascists from normal people, lol.
Was Hether Heyer part of "antifa"? Not as far as know, I may be wrong.. am I?
i'm going to take a wild guess and say that based on the fact she was from ruckersville and in charlottesville explicitly protesting against the unite the right rally, she was in fact antifa, yes. it's not generally a situation where randos just bumble in with all the police presence and whatnot.
Maybe I am uninformed, but "by all accounts" is quite the passionate and unequivocal statement. Can you please provide some sourcing for these accounts?
i mean... literally, the fact that unite the right 1 shut down an entire city and had a fatal car attack, and unite the right 2 was like 50 dudes outnumbered 10 to 1 or more by counterprotesters? and the fact that far right gatherings in general have dwindled considerably since 2017 both in number and size, while opposition to them has continued to grow regardless of where such gatherings take place?
Antifa, not being an organized group, is often nothing more than a label antifascists rally under for street-level antifascist activity like counter-protests. Why that wouldn't include other...
Antifa, not being an organized group, is often nothing more than a label antifascists rally under for street-level antifascist activity like counter-protests. Why that wouldn't include other things as often should be fairly obvious. You can't just decide you don't care about what antifa even is if you're going to critique their strategy.
The majority of the people we're talking about when we're saying "antifa" will support mixed tactics including the ones you like, and many will also participate in other things. It's a symbol and a banner for a specific purpose, practical on-the-ground stuff (that can include violence but also can be just distributing information and organizing nonviolent resistance). I assure you many of these people are doing antifascist writing or whatever else you think is the "proper" way to resist fascism, it just isn't called "antifa" often because, again, that isn't an organization they belong to or anything like that.
That's all a side point to what alyaza already touched on in their reply, though, with the whole bit about how disrupting demonstrations is critically important and successful.
also, with respect to this point since it's kinda separate from the rest: maybe join them on the frontlines then, if you're so worried about "faceless edgelords" being the only bulwark against the...
also, with respect to this point since it's kinda separate from the rest:
Being virulently against fascism should be re-normalized. It should not be in the hands of a bunch of faceless edgelords.
maybe join them on the frontlines then, if you're so worried about "faceless edgelords" being the only bulwark against the rise of fascism in this country? newsflash to the people on this site who complain about antifa: handwringing about how they're "perfect fascist propaganda" does nothing. if you're not out there fighting fascism yourself, you really don't get to, and i use this with as much sincerity as i can, bitch about how the people who do fight fascism go about that fight. be the change you want to see, or sit down and stop complaining.
Putin's dream come true.
Exactly. In my opinion the correct course of action is to document the Nazis marching in DC, and otherwise ignore them in person.
edit: As this thread was locked while I slept, this is the only way for me to respond.
I hate fascists. My grandmother told me that she was raped by Nazis in Poland during WWII. I want to do unspeakable things to all proven marching fascists. If it ever comes down to a pitched battle, I will be there. I totally misspoke in my original curt comment here, I wish I could take it back. I have marched multiple times against what I thought was wrong.
I also went off the handle a bit here because I conflated "anti-fascists" with "antifa." This was my mistake, however I do stand by most of my statements down-thread. We need to re-normalize being against fascism. As it stands, the most popular news channel in the USA, Fox News, uses "antifa" as a straw man to paint anyone standing against their right-wing leader as some sort of terrorist. This is due to a few dumb asses or agents provocateurs in Berkley and in Portland, being dumb asses. While I completely messed up my original statement in this comment, of course I stand with all non-violent, anti-Nazi protestors. I just think that "antifa" is a very tarnished brand and needs to be destroyed for all us normal people to support winning the war in the media. Upon reflection this was not the appropriate Tildes Topic to make that argument.
I wish that I could reply to @hungariantoast: I do agree with everything you said except:
That is my entire point in this thread. Those "thugs" devalue all of the other peaceful protestors. A historical analog would be that looking back, Malcolm X (who was a badass) was used as the "enemy" by the right, and accomplished little in the big picture. Meanwhile MLK was non-violent and is remembered by history as the one who actually accomplished something.
I highly recommend that people read this: https://thekingcenter.org/about-dr-king/
edit2: I feel that my editing of this comment is "not fair" in the sense of a conversation. I also dislike locking threads from a user POV. If you have anything to say in response to my first edit, please DM me and I will add your response to another edit.
Here's the thing about why I won't lift a finger for antifa.
People get shit wrong. All the time. They accuse others of being things that the other is not. All the time. Justifying a hate crime against a Mexican marine because he "might" be a fascist is not only counterproductive, it's prima facia absurd.
It is absolutely fucking horseshit for anyone to think that behavior is okay (and I'm not saying you see it as okay either, but it's something that antifa supporters have to grapple with if they're going to be okay with the "punching nazis" motif they support so fervently).
What happens when antifa does shit like this? It radicalizes populations to oppose them. It makes it harder to oppose fascism because idiot asshole decided to punch someone he didn't like instead of having an honest to god conversation first before deciding the other person is a hated enemy.
I hope you understand that I do not want a fascist society any more than you do. But they will sooner prove empirically that god exists before I lift a finger to support a trigger happy antifa asshole.
violence is not the only thing antifa does and it's weird to me that a large number of people here seem to think that's the case even though they'll gladly point out certain media narratives in really any other circumstance. like, if you make or print off anti-nazi flyers; organize and publicize information about fascists or what they do or raise community awareness about the issue or deplatform nazis or whatever, that's antifascism. antifa as a concept is not violence and only violence and never has been--really, anything that disrupts fascism would constitute that.
It's because RW disinformation campaigns have been so successful; Antifa has a genuinely awesome history, kind of odd that they can't get that into the Overton Window.
people like to blame the right-wing for shit like this but i think the bigger problem when it comes to things like this is the liberal media, actually. conservatives are going to conservative; i expect fox news to stand up for someone like andy ngo because he's /theirguy/ and it's whatever because that's what you get when you employ hannity and carlson and that's what their viewers want--i don't expect fucking jake tapper from CNN though to fold like a wet noodle on the ngo issue and start acting like antifa is out here literally killing journalists because ngo got a few bruises when the media regularly gets threatened by people at trump rallies and CNN's been repeatedly threatened with actual bombs by conservatives just in the past year. conservative media might start shit like this, but the liberal media skips in lockstep with it too and gives it an order of magnitude more power than it might have otherwise.
The flipside of your argument is that the Antifa are also protecting people from the alt-right and preventing them from outright killing people [1]. I guess Heather should've just had a nice conversation with the guy running her down?
What you're arguing for is essentially allowing the alt-right to go out and kill people unopposed. Especially when you have members of the police shielding them and their crimes. I'm not going to defend racist pieces of shit using protests as an opportunity for violence, but I will say it's amazing to see people argue that they don't want to see a fascist society while letting it grow unabated and letting them kill people.
I'm also incredibly skeptical about your source because I literally cannot find a neutral source reporting on the incident. All of the search results are heavily biased or come from far-right sites, I can't find an actual sentencing and neither can I find the individuals represented in said story. I'm not going to doubt that the Antifa do get shit wrong because that's the nature of the internet but at the same time, people treat the Antifa like they're literally the same as the alt-right.
[1] https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/08/what-the-alt-left-was-actually-doing-in-charlottesville.html
Abso-fucking-lutely not, and the idea you could possibly think that is outrageous. I expect you will apologize if you want this conversation to be civil.
Civility is not comparing the Antifa to the Rape of Nanjing, genocide or essentially calling them all secret racists looking for a fight.
And I'm calling you out because this seems to be a continually one-sided argument where people wax poetic about the Antifa being a terrible danger to our society while the alt-right is, again, literally killing people or indoctrinating people and getting away with it. I'm all for calling out the shitheads that get violent. But I'm not going to put my head in the sand and hope that the alt-right will go away if our system which chooses to focus on 'Black Identity Extremists' and which conveniently loses information on places like Stormfront is going to wake up and fix the problem before it gets worse.
And if you think it's an actual problem, then I encourage you to go out and protest. If you do, even non-violently? That means you're 'antifa', and a free target for the alt-right. Don't be surprised if you get assaulted by the Proud Boys and the police sit on their asses meanwhile.
Look, you literally accused me of supporting an asshole from Maumee (very close to my hometown) running into a crowd of otherwise peaceful protestors and killing a woman while harming many others. If you can't see why I might see that as a personal attack, then there is absolutely nothing to be gained by my engaging you in any way.
The idea that you think I will be in any mental state to read what you're saying after you say something like that to me is testament to your own tone deaf and insulting behavior.
And this is exactly the problem with people that consider themselves Antifa. This higher than thou attitude has been used countless times throughout history to commit atrocity after atrocity. You know the Rape of Nanjing and the genocide on the Vendee were done with noble intentions too, I'm sure. It's fine though, because the other were the enemy.
You want to wrap yourself in a cloak of violence? Fine. But you will deserve punishment for it. I have no greater sympathy for Sinn Fein in Ireland when they were wrapping themselves in the cloak of the IRA. Nor for the Unionist terrorists bombing people they think are catholics on the other side.
You want to think that you're helping pursue an anti-fascist cause with this nonsense? Well, you're alienating people like me protecting people like that. I want people who engage in that violence jailed. I don't give a shit who is committing that violence. I believe in the rule of law, the prosecution of people who engage in violence for unjust causes, and maybe even the death penalty for assholes like that guy from Maumee who ran his car into a crowd of protestors. My rage against the violent is not ideologically driven.
I do not like it when people punch actual fascists either. Why? Because it makes more people on the fences get OFF the fences, and many of those won't be jumping down on your side. The ideal goal of a project like this should be to maximize the amount of allies on your side and minimize the amount of enemies.
People who engage in violence to pursue political ends should be prosecuted. People who try to protect those who engage in violence to pursue political ends are not to be trusted. People who would so callously call for ideological war do not care about the innocent or vulnerable. They would seem to care more about their own self-righteousness.
You can't take me seriously though, so I don't even know why I wrote this. Fuck me, I guess.
I think it's a little unfair to genericize the term when it isn't necessarily used for any act of antifascism. If I write an antifascist piece or something else distant and indirect, that's not typically considered an "antifa article" by anyone else or myself. It's a term and a banner typically reserved for on-the-ground, practical work and I think we risk starting a worthless argument about what "counts" as antifa where we could instead just talk about the real actions of people. Antifa is a loose banner, but that doesn't mean we should ignore how it's actually used in favor of saying "antifa is all antifascism!"
But, importantly, that's still not only punching Nazis and I of course agree with your conclusion.
EDIT: This was addressed by hungariantoast's edits.
I agree. I seriously don't understand what Antifa is trying to accomplish.
I think that their ranks must be filled with agents provocateurs, and the rest are people who are too narrow minded to see the big picture, just want to cause havoc (rail against the system,) and punch fascists. I think a lot people can identify with the last part and it is probably alluring.
If antifa was to do something smart, a few leaders would take their masks off, turn themselves in (or just have a press conference) and say that "we take responsibility for our actions (which is almost nothing) and we now recognize that the vast majority of Americans are against fascism."
As it is, they are the perfect dehumanized straw man for fascists to use when they peddle propaganda to mainstream conservatives.
i cannot express this enough: antifa has no leaders. it is not an organization. it is barely even a movement. it's literally a bunch of people who get together and rebuke fascism, and sometimes it's "organized" and other times it's spontaneous but there's zero consistency because it can be anybody or nobody or radical leftists or milquetoast liberals. if you are talking about "leaders" of antifa, you have no idea what antifa is and need to just stop.
Which is exactly why they are a perfect propaganda tool for the fascists. I don’t care about the semantics or their hierarchy. All it takes is a few of them to say they are “leaders” and go on Anderson Cooper.
This is a battle for hearts and minds, people hiding behind masks don’t win that battle of messaging.
Edit: to add, occupy was a leaderless network and what did they accomplish?
Being virulently against fascism should be re-normalized. It should not be in the hands of a bunch of faceless edgelords.
y'know, i really feel like people who speak about antifa having "leaders" when it barely even constitutes a decentralized organization or who act like it's some wing of the vast putinian conspiracy to undermine america should probably not be talking about whether or not they're a "perfect propaganda tool" for fascists when fascists literally regularly get disrupted by anti-fascists, and anti-fascist actions have been responsible for a large slate of fascists losing institutional power wherever they have it or outright hanging up their outreach efforts and going underground.
Disrupting demonstrations accomplishes very little in the big picture. Being anti fascist should be wining in the court of public opinion/media on a regular basis as it is the moral high ground. When was the last time antifa was able to accomplish that?
well, aside from the part where disrupting demonstrations led to the biggest PR disaster for fascism in this country in recent history and broke their institutional strength in a way they're still recovering from at charlottesville. and the part where richard spencer hung up his speaking tour because of anti-fascist disruption. and the part where events like patriot prayer and unite the right are increasingly tiny and fascists are now having to resort to functional or literal paramilitaries to do anything at all. can you name the last time fascists had a serious, genuine rally where they weren't either outnumbered or where they put on a serious display of force? probably not, and there's a reason why--it's certainly not because disrupting demonstrations does nothing and they're really just all busy or something. meeting people who thrive on force with stronger force tends to put them in their place, and by all accounts that's what's happened to the institutional power of most fascist groups in this country because of anti-fascists opposing them constantly.
It was normal people who are against facism that did that, the big defeat was the fact that one of Nazis murdered a peaceful protestor, and was convicted of murder. Was Hether Heyer part of "antifa"? Not as far as know, I may be wrong.. am I?
Maybe I am uninformed, but "by all accounts" is quite the passionate and unequivocal statement. Can you please provide some sourcing for these accounts?
those normal people are otherwise known as... wait for it... antifa! there's really nothing special that distinguishes antifascists from normal people, lol.
i'm going to take a wild guess and say that based on the fact she was from ruckersville and in charlottesville explicitly protesting against the unite the right rally, she was in fact antifa, yes. it's not generally a situation where randos just bumble in with all the police presence and whatnot.
i mean... literally, the fact that unite the right 1 shut down an entire city and had a fatal car attack, and unite the right 2 was like 50 dudes outnumbered 10 to 1 or more by counterprotesters? and the fact that far right gatherings in general have dwindled considerably since 2017 both in number and size, while opposition to them has continued to grow regardless of where such gatherings take place?
Antifa, not being an organized group, is often nothing more than a label antifascists rally under for street-level antifascist activity like counter-protests. Why that wouldn't include other things as often should be fairly obvious. You can't just decide you don't care about what antifa even is if you're going to critique their strategy.
The majority of the people we're talking about when we're saying "antifa" will support mixed tactics including the ones you like, and many will also participate in other things. It's a symbol and a banner for a specific purpose, practical on-the-ground stuff (that can include violence but also can be just distributing information and organizing nonviolent resistance). I assure you many of these people are doing antifascist writing or whatever else you think is the "proper" way to resist fascism, it just isn't called "antifa" often because, again, that isn't an organization they belong to or anything like that.
That's all a side point to what alyaza already touched on in their reply, though, with the whole bit about how disrupting demonstrations is critically important and successful.
also, with respect to this point since it's kinda separate from the rest:
maybe join them on the frontlines then, if you're so worried about "faceless edgelords" being the only bulwark against the rise of fascism in this country? newsflash to the people on this site who complain about antifa: handwringing about how they're "perfect fascist propaganda" does nothing. if you're not out there fighting fascism yourself, you really don't get to, and i use this with as much sincerity as i can, bitch about how the people who do fight fascism go about that fight. be the change you want to see, or sit down and stop complaining.