48 votes

The Chinese government is engaging in a widespread, systematic campaign of forced birth control and sterilization on Uighurs and other minorities

19 comments

  1. CALICO
    Link
    Re: Genocide, In 1948 the United Nations adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and it was put in force in 1951. Article 2 of the Convention defines...

    Re: Genocide,

    In 1948 the United Nations adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and it was put in force in 1951.

    Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:

    [...] any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

    27 votes
  2. [13]
    Grzmot
    Link
    I mean we knew of the concentration camps already, but this just cements my feeling about this; now I know how the people in ~1940 felt when the Third Reich was happily genociding jews and other...

    I mean we knew of the concentration camps already, but this just cements my feeling about this; now I know how the people in ~1940 felt when the Third Reich was happily genociding jews and other desireables, and no one did anything.

    We thought we learned, but we never did.

    22 votes
    1. [2]
      Rez
      Link Parent
      We learned from the Holocaust, but so did China. They aren't conducting their genocide in the middle of a war. They're also not going as far with their violence, but instead focusing on the end...

      We learned from the Holocaust, but so did China. They aren't conducting their genocide in the middle of a war. They're also not going as far with their violence, but instead focusing on the end goal of extinction, and aren't ramping up the cruelty at the cost of possibly achieving their goal. They've also learned lessons from their own One Child policy. They know (the hard way) that the family planning of a generation eventually has consequences. Forced birth control is much less splashy of a genocide than mass killings, but just as effective when you're thinking about what the situation will be 20 years from now. This evil is smarter - China knows they just have to be patient and they can commit genocide through a thousand cuts. And it seems like they will probably be successful barring a substantial change in the world order.

      31 votes
      1. jgb
        Link Parent
        It's stomach-churning. It feels like so long as China doesn't literally build gas chambers the world will stand by and watch as they exterminate entire ethnic groups.

        It's stomach-churning. It feels like so long as China doesn't literally build gas chambers the world will stand by and watch as they exterminate entire ethnic groups.

        13 votes
    2. [9]
      Sand
      Link Parent
      But what can be done to stop this? Threaten China with war?

      But what can be done to stop this? Threaten China with war?

      6 votes
      1. [7]
        jgb
        Link Parent
        A mass boycott of Chinese products would go some way to help, surely? The problem is that the public consciousness is too saturated with our own societal issues to support another worthy cause,...

        A mass boycott of Chinese products would go some way to help, surely? The problem is that the public consciousness is too saturated with our own societal issues to support another worthy cause, even though this is a far bigger problem than any of the problems we have in the anglophone world these days.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          Dropping trade that much is too big for boycotts. Assuming you really want it to drop, it would have to be done with tariffs, because that affects decisions in the whole supply chain, much like a...

          Dropping trade that much is too big for boycotts. Assuming you really want it to drop, it would have to be done with tariffs, because that affects decisions in the whole supply chain, much like a carbon tax would. Maybe some of the tariffs Trump put in place will last beyond his administration, or be increased?

          But I'm doubtful that even a big drop in trade would be enough to change what China does all that much. Foreign governments are not as easy to push around as some folks wish they were. Even economic sanctions don't always work.

          14 votes
          1. jgb
            Link Parent
            Hopefully Trump hasn't poisoned the discussion around tariffs on Chinese goods. I'm worried that a lot of the commentators who one would expect to take a stance against genocide will oppose...

            Hopefully Trump hasn't poisoned the discussion around tariffs on Chinese goods. I'm worried that a lot of the commentators who one would expect to take a stance against genocide will oppose tariffs for no other reason than that Trump supports them.

            6 votes
        2. [4]
          Sand
          Link Parent
          While a mass boycott would be nice, I doubt it would stop the Chinese government from doing what they have set out on doing.

          While a mass boycott would be nice, I doubt it would stop the Chinese government from doing what they have set out on doing.

          1 vote
          1. [3]
            Rez
            Link Parent
            A mass boycott would be much more threatening to China's long-term plans than whatever threat they view the Uighurs as posing to their social order. If it was a binary decision, I'm confident the...

            A mass boycott would be much more threatening to China's long-term plans than whatever threat they view the Uighurs as posing to their social order. If it was a binary decision, I'm confident the Chinese would choose to let the Uighur issue lie. The issue is though that it's mutually assured economic destruction, something they're counting on. Any boycott sufficiently powerful enough to coerce the Chinese would inevitably be crippling ourselves. Any action that would result in China kowtowing on this issue would be an extremely painful action to undertake, all for an uncertain outcome. You would have to match their long-term planning with our own long-term planning - if the Chinese saw that America was putting together a plan to divest itself of Chinese products on a 30 year timeline (and critically, they could somehow believe the plan would have momentum across administrations) then that would terrify them. Passing boycotts and tariffs are temporary problems by contrast that don't meaningfully threaten their long-term plans, because they can just as quickly disappear as they appeared. China knows that one of their biggest advantages is their ability to commit to long-term plans, although I am interested in how they will manage Xi's successor.

            Pretty much the only hope I see is that the change comes from within. One way we could influence this is by asking prestigious American universities to step up to their duty of properly educating Chinese nationals on liberal arts.

            11 votes
            1. [2]
              Kuromantis
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Would it though? It's not like they couldn't replace the US by developing all the countries poor countries they now have custody over around them (Pakistan, Russia, Most of Africa, Iran and given...

              If the Chinese saw that America was putting together a plan to divest itself of Chinese products on a 30 year timeline (and critically, they could somehow believe the plan would have momentum across administrations) then that would terrify them.

              Would it though? It's not like they couldn't replace the US by developing all the countries poor countries they now have custody over around them (Pakistan, Russia, Most of Africa, Iran and given their pragmatic-ish, authoritarian leanings, Saudi Arabia unless they actually prefer to become a secular, liberal democracy for the sake of being a US ally). While that will certainly take precedent over sinicization, I don't think it will truly divest them from it.

              Also disentangling ourselves from China (while being an order of magnitude better than not doing anything) would probably make them less accountable to us, not more right?

              1. Rez
                Link Parent
                I am not sure how you view those countries as a substitute for the US as a trading partner. China is certainly investing heavily in trade relationships with other countries though. In any case, an...

                I am not sure how you view those countries as a substitute for the US as a trading partner. China is certainly investing heavily in trade relationships with other countries though. In any case, an incredibly simplified take would be that China currently needs us more than we need them (even if we otherwise both really need each other regardless). But that's part of why they're developing those ties with other countries, so our leverage is weakened.

                Concerning the second point, yes, but that's true of any tariff strategy. If the Uighur issue is deemed important enough politically, then China is already not accountable to us on the matter given the present state of affairs, which means we have to threaten to break those ties to make China choose between the Uighur matter and the economic ties. Put another way, increasing economic ties would not do anything to change the matter. It's just a matter of us deeming it politically important enough that it's believable we would break ties over this issue and China backing out first in that game of chicken.

                3 votes
      2. Grzmot
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        In diplomatic escalations, war would be the last one, the first would be talking to them while embargoing China on a global scale.

        In diplomatic escalations, war would be the last one, the first would be talking to them while embargoing China on a global scale.

        2 votes
    3. Kuromantis
      Link Parent
      Tangentially related

      Tangentially related

      A remarkable survey conducted in April 1938 found that more than half of Americans blamed Europe's Jews for their own treatment at the hands of the Nazis. This poll showed that 54% of Americans agreed that "the persecution of Jews in Europe has been partly their own fault," with 11% believing it was "entirely" their own fault. Hostility to refugees was so ingrained that just two months after Kristallnacht, 67% of Americans opposed a bill in the U.S. Congress intended to admit child refugees from Germany. The bill never made it to the floor of Congress for a vote.

      In November 1944, well over 5 million Jews had been murdered by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. Yet just under one-quarter of Americans who answered the poll could believe that more than 1 million people had been murdered by Germans in concentration camps; 36% believed that 100,000 or fewer had been killed.

      4 votes
  3. JoylessAubergine
    Link
    Horrifying how powerless it makes you feel. I just don't see what any country or collection of countries can do (short of war which would be absolutely disastrous). I doubt even historic levels of...

    Horrifying how powerless it makes you feel. I just don't see what any country or collection of countries can do (short of war which would be absolutely disastrous). I doubt even historic levels of sanctions by every non-china-bought country would do anything but make China turn inwards like they were for most of the 20th century or encourage them to take a more proactive role in creating their own sphere of influence. Offering refuge for the 25,000,000 Uighurs? China wouldn't let them leave even if anyone would take them on that scale.

    18 votes
  4. Kuromantis
    Link
    Taken from this comment from a r/pics picture of a uyghur on a camp: Every time something like this happens, I just sarcastically say golden hour (a nazi radio show from the 1930s which was...

    Taken from this comment from a r/pics picture of a uyghur on a camp:

    Ever wondered how it was possible that Nazi Germany did what they did?

    Ever wondered what it looks like when unwanted people are being murdered efficiently and on an industrious scale?

    Ever wondered how Nazi Germany employed 1/3rd of its population to spy on the rest?

    Ever wondered why the world did nothing to stop it for so long?

    You are now watching Nazi Germany v2.0. It's here, right in front of you. Bigger, better and more powerful. And all the businesses in the world want to do business with Nazi Germany v2.0.

    This is what it feels like when not enough people care.

    Every time something like this happens, I just sarcastically say golden hour (a nazi radio show from the 1930s which was listened to by 30 million people in the US) to myself to maintain a shred of humor.

    4 votes
  5. [3]
    Kuromantis
    (edited )
    Link
    Meanwhile, 2 commenters in reddit have brought criticism to the article:

    Meanwhile, 2 commenters in reddit have brought criticism to the article:

    Is AP serious that the best so-called "China expert" they can find to back up the article's assertions is Adrian Zenz, from some institute no-one has ever heard of?

    In his book "Worthy to Escape", he predicts the fall of capitalism (identified as "Babylon") and consequent rise to power of the Antichrist. Zenz links other aspects of modern society, such as homosexuality and non-violent parenting, to "power behind the Antichrist".

    wtf???

    Since AP is an American news agency and many of you Redditors are Americans, so I think it’s important to take a look who this Adrian Zenz, the main source of this long report, is, before you decide how much you will trust the report.

    https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/

    Here is a preview:

    “born-again Christian who claims to preach at his local church, Adrian Zenz is a lecturer at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible [to be] the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”

    “Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.

    Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist. “

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      Turtle
      Link Parent
      Well that does seem like grounds for questioning his credibility, doesn't it?

      Well that does seem like grounds for questioning his credibility, doesn't it?

      2 votes
      1. Kuromantis
        Link Parent
        Yeah, edited the comment to be less dismissive.

        Yeah, edited the comment to be less dismissive.