We've recently had a thread about Havana Syndrome that may be interpreted as leaning towards HS being psychogenic. This piece by The Insider, a Russian (in exile) investigative journalism website,...
This piece by The Insider, a Russian (in exile) investigative journalism website, tries to describe the opposite position and goes into interesting detail, for example examining as much of the circumstantial evidence and motives (regarding what kinds of agents were targeted, where, around which events etc.) as possible, and describing the GRU unit that is suspected to take part in the supposed attacks.
It also lists some of the strange physiological changes that were objectively found in some of the victims, reminding us that MRI is not everything, though like the previous article, it does not offer any conclusive evidence. Adding that there are reasons to believe that some evidence exists but is kept secret, for understandable reasons that do not seem necessarily conspiratorial.
For those unfamiliar with The Insider, they have worked alongside Bellingcat on numerous investigations, including the groundbreaking Skripal poisoning investigation for which they both won a...
For those unfamiliar with The Insider, they have worked alongside Bellingcat on numerous investigations, including the groundbreaking Skripal poisoning investigation for which they both won a European Press Prize. They've also worked with CNN, Der Spiegel, BBC and a bunch of other major news orgs on investigations involving Russia too. So they're generally considered quite reputable.
My problem with the premise of Havana Syndrome being much more than psychological is that it's apparently only in Cuba? Such a "weapon" would be useful in all sorts of situations, and likely...
My problem with the premise of Havana Syndrome being much more than psychological is that it's apparently only in Cuba?
Such a "weapon" would be useful in all sorts of situations, and likely detectable. Last time I looked into this they've never detected anything, and it's never been "deployed" anywhere else. I don't have time to read the whole article, but from scanning it seems to imply it's russian technology, so why isn't this being deployed all over the place?
And while Russia does have serious security around its secret projects, the idea that this has been going on for almost 10 years without any sort of leak or other deployment strikes me as extremely unlikely.
Maybe the article has something new, but it's often "ah we saw this russian spy" or some such thing, which sure I have 0 doubt they have agents in cuba, but that doesn't mean super secret weapon.
Edit:
For transparency sake I did just glance at the wiki of Havana Syndrome and it seems it's been reported elsewhere now (China/India/Europe/DC). I'll have to see how credible those reports are, but at the very least there are now reports outside of cuba.
The article goes into detail on specifically those things, including the fact that it was reported even before Cuba in Frankfurt (and different places after that as well, the second article I...
The article goes into detail on specifically those things, including the fact that it was reported even before Cuba in Frankfurt (and different places after that as well, the second article I linked in the first comment is about a guy who was targeted in Moscow), the connection to specific people observed in the place of those attacks etc.
the idea that this has been going on for almost 10 years without any sort of leak or other deployment strikes me as extremely unlikely
It's not unheard of. We afaik still don't know what gas was used in the 2002 Moscow theatre hostage crisis, only that it was very likely a synthetic opioid with potency on the level of carfentanil that we didn't know how to test for at the time.
The article also claims there are reasons to believe that the CIA knows much more than what it says publicly about those attacks, but there are legitimate reasons not to release that information at this moment.
My issue with the whole premise of Russia developing this tech is that they effectively have had the economic output of New York State over the last like fifteen to twenty years. The fact that...
My issue with the whole premise of Russia developing this tech is that they effectively have had the economic output of New York State over the last like fifteen to twenty years. The fact that they have this tech and the US skunkworks/DARPA/military industrial complex doesn't have equivalent and hasn't been actively using it seems implausible.
The 60 minute episode I saw about the one dudes wife getting hit with this supposed weapon seems interesting until you take a step back and realize... They targeted his wife doing laundry mid day? You have this crazy ass tech and that's what you choose to use it on? It's like the navy developing a rail gun to strike at the Iranian equivalent of a burger king. You ever use a high yield energy weapon to just flex on a Long John Silvers? The whole thing seems silly.
Additionally, all the symptoms of HS are all over the place with very little consistency.
Is this really weird? The article says that most of the people targeted were among top 10% best agents working against Russia in some way, and their families. In my opinion sending a long-term...
until you take a step back and realize... They targeted his wife doing laundry mid day?
Is this really weird? The article says that most of the people targeted were among top 10% best agents working against Russia in some way, and their families. In my opinion sending a long-term consistent message that says "if you work against us, we will target you and your family" is a completely rational thing to do and the fact that it was done in a window of opportunity that sounds a bit strange doesn't seem relevant in that context.
If the atom bomb was not public knowledge it would seem like a more unbelievable conspiracy theory. I think we would have roughly the same level of deterrence and effective countermeasures if that...
If the atom bomb was not public knowledge it would seem like a more unbelievable conspiracy theory. I think we would have roughly the same level of deterrence and effective countermeasures if that weapon was still a secret shared only among government agencies.
It's very possible that a sonic weapon of some kind exists. It's not outside the realm of possibility that it existed before we figured out how to split the atom. There are also good reasons for denying knowledge of any weapon for both US and Russian governments.
It's also very possible that it doesn't exist but that what started as a psychological break has turned certain departments across the globe into a prototyping frenzy--or that they have thought about it but because guns and poison darts exist they have not put much forethought into actually developing it.
But war is best fought at the psychological and morale levels--perhaps this is all propaganda perpetuated by specific or non-specific countries for various purposes.
Damn, I was collecting articles in the past couple days about this because they were all linked. Guess I'll just share them here (apologies for some amp links). 60 Minutes: Havana Syndrome mystery...
Damn, I was collecting articles in the past couple days about this because they were all linked. Guess I'll just share them here (apologies for some amp links).
It's a psychogenic illness, it's really not any more complex than that. IMHO I think some people have way too much time on their hands. Some of this stuff reads like a knock-off Tom Clancy novel.
It's a psychogenic illness, it's really not any more complex than that. IMHO I think some people have way too much time on their hands. Some of this stuff reads like a knock-off Tom Clancy novel.
We've recently had a thread about Havana Syndrome that may be interpreted as leaning towards HS being psychogenic.
This piece by The Insider, a Russian (in exile) investigative journalism website, tries to describe the opposite position and goes into interesting detail, for example examining as much of the circumstantial evidence and motives (regarding what kinds of agents were targeted, where, around which events etc.) as possible, and describing the GRU unit that is suspected to take part in the supposed attacks.
It also lists some of the strange physiological changes that were objectively found in some of the victims, reminding us that MRI is not everything, though like the previous article, it does not offer any conclusive evidence. Adding that there are reasons to believe that some evidence exists but is kept secret, for understandable reasons that do not seem necessarily conspiratorial.
The Insider also published another article about Marc Polymeropoulos (the name made me do a double check - is this an april fools joke? No, that's actually his name), one of the CIA veterans hit with Havana Syndrome on a visit to Moscow: “All I wanted was to see a doctor”: Ex-CIA officer tells all about his battle with Havana Syndrome — and his former agency.
It is also imo worth reading.
For those unfamiliar with The Insider, they have worked alongside Bellingcat on numerous investigations, including the groundbreaking Skripal poisoning investigation for which they both won a European Press Prize. They've also worked with CNN, Der Spiegel, BBC and a bunch of other major news orgs on investigations involving Russia too. So they're generally considered quite reputable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Insider_(website)
The name Polymeropoulos is actually pretty funny. "Child of multiple parts".
My problem with the premise of Havana Syndrome being much more than psychological is that it's apparently only in Cuba?
Such a "weapon" would be useful in all sorts of situations, and likely detectable. Last time I looked into this they've never detected anything, and it's never been "deployed" anywhere else. I don't have time to read the whole article, but from scanning it seems to imply it's russian technology, so why isn't this being deployed all over the place?
And while Russia does have serious security around its secret projects, the idea that this has been going on for almost 10 years without any sort of leak or other deployment strikes me as extremely unlikely.
Maybe the article has something new, but it's often "ah we saw this russian spy" or some such thing, which sure I have 0 doubt they have agents in cuba, but that doesn't mean super secret weapon.
Edit:
For transparency sake I did just glance at the wiki of Havana Syndrome and it seems it's been reported elsewhere now (China/India/Europe/DC). I'll have to see how credible those reports are, but at the very least there are now reports outside of cuba.
The article goes into detail on specifically those things, including the fact that it was reported even before Cuba in Frankfurt (and different places after that as well, the second article I linked in the first comment is about a guy who was targeted in Moscow), the connection to specific people observed in the place of those attacks etc.
It's not unheard of. We afaik still don't know what gas was used in the 2002 Moscow theatre hostage crisis, only that it was very likely a synthetic opioid with potency on the level of carfentanil that we didn't know how to test for at the time.
The article also claims there are reasons to believe that the CIA knows much more than what it says publicly about those attacks, but there are legitimate reasons not to release that information at this moment.
My issue with the whole premise of Russia developing this tech is that they effectively have had the economic output of New York State over the last like fifteen to twenty years. The fact that they have this tech and the US skunkworks/DARPA/military industrial complex doesn't have equivalent and hasn't been actively using it seems implausible.
The 60 minute episode I saw about the one dudes wife getting hit with this supposed weapon seems interesting until you take a step back and realize... They targeted his wife doing laundry mid day? You have this crazy ass tech and that's what you choose to use it on? It's like the navy developing a rail gun to strike at the Iranian equivalent of a burger king. You ever use a high yield energy weapon to just flex on a Long John Silvers? The whole thing seems silly.
Additionally, all the symptoms of HS are all over the place with very little consistency.
Is this really weird? The article says that most of the people targeted were among top 10% best agents working against Russia in some way, and their families. In my opinion sending a long-term consistent message that says "if you work against us, we will target you and your family" is a completely rational thing to do and the fact that it was done in a window of opportunity that sounds a bit strange doesn't seem relevant in that context.
Yeah this is basically the rest of my argument. Just figured I’d see where the article went
I don't think it would be that expensive to develop something like this. For all we know this could have been prototyped and developed prior to 1990s
Given that roughly thirty years time span I think it's odd that effective countermeasures don't exist.
If the atom bomb was not public knowledge it would seem like a more unbelievable conspiracy theory. I think we would have roughly the same level of deterrence and effective countermeasures if that weapon was still a secret shared only among government agencies.
It's very possible that a sonic weapon of some kind exists. It's not outside the realm of possibility that it existed before we figured out how to split the atom. There are also good reasons for denying knowledge of any weapon for both US and Russian governments.
It's also very possible that it doesn't exist but that what started as a psychological break has turned certain departments across the globe into a prototyping frenzy--or that they have thought about it but because guns and poison darts exist they have not put much forethought into actually developing it.
But war is best fought at the psychological and morale levels--perhaps this is all propaganda perpetuated by specific or non-specific countries for various purposes.
Damn, I was collecting articles in the past couple days about this because they were all linked. Guess I'll just share them here (apologies for some amp links).
60 Minutes: Havana Syndrome mystery continues as a lead military investigator says bar for proof was set impossibly high
Statements of White House, FBI, Office of the Director of National Intelligence to 60 Minutes
Axios: Russian assassination unit linked to U.S. officials' "Havana syndrome"
AP: US defense official had ‘Havana syndrome’ symptoms during a 2023 NATO summit, the Pentagon confirms
Havana Syndrome evidence suggests who may be responsible for mysterious brain injuries.
It's a psychogenic illness, it's really not any more complex than that. IMHO I think some people have way too much time on their hands. Some of this stuff reads like a knock-off Tom Clancy novel.