Good. To be clear tough, technically the court said that classifying them as a “potential” extremism case was legal, not that they are (even though to any non-lawyer, that kind of goes hand in...
Good.
To be clear tough, technically the court said that classifying them as a “potential” extremism case was legal, not that they are (even though to any non-lawyer, that kind of goes hand in hand), and that German three-letter agencies may observe and impose special surveillance on them.
It's insane to me how brazen and blatant the AFD can be in their hate of poor people, queer people, jewish people and love everything radical and Nazi-adjacent. Anyone with a brain can see that...
It's insane to me how brazen and blatant the AFD can be in their hate of poor people, queer people, jewish people and love everything radical and Nazi-adjacent. Anyone with a brain can see that these guys are cryptofascists, and the cryptography algorithm they use to hide that is a vigenere cipher with "ADOLF" as the passphrase. It's obvious. Everyone knows they're just Nazis in blue suits. And as someone who lives in a pretty left leaning part of Germany, it scares me that barely anything is done about these dangerous dickwads. Make no mistake, this is a great start, but I can't wait until everyone realises they're terrible at and for everything. Preferably even ban them outright for being anticonstitutional.
Yeah they're like... barely even cryptofascists because they're less and less subtle about it every day. I live in Berlin but my local Abgeordneters in Berlin Parliament are one from the AfD and...
Yeah they're like... barely even cryptofascists because they're less and less subtle about it every day.
I live in Berlin but my local Abgeordneters in Berlin Parliament are one from the AfD and one from the CDU because none of us immigrants can vote and the German citizens around here are all elderly, rich, or both. Yayyyy.
The interesting question is: What could be done? What should be done? I'm no American free speech absolutists, but most things I can think of are undemocratic and/or seriously threaten the freedom...
it scares me that barely anything is done about these dangerous dickwads
The interesting question is: What could be done? What should be done?
I'm no American free speech absolutists, but most things I can think of are undemocratic and/or seriously threaten the freedom of the press.
It's clear that a couple of million Germans are unhappy with the status quo. How do you change that?
Any bans here would likely fall under Germany's existing legislation against hate speech and Naziism. Philosophically I understand that not everyone agrees that is a good thing (I have some qualms...
Any bans here would likely fall under Germany's existing legislation against hate speech and Naziism. Philosophically I understand that not everyone agrees that is a good thing (I have some qualms about parts myself) but given Germany's history it's not exactly hard to see why there are ALREADY laws to prevent certain extremist groups from running. Isn't banning the Nazi party technically undemocratic too?
Would banning the AfD stop Germans who would vote for them from being racist and xenophobic? Almost certainly not. But it would hopefully prevent them from using resources as a political party to spread their ideology further within the German population and would prevent them from amassing more political power. As for those voters, there's plenty of racist anti-immigrant politicians in the CDU for them to vote for who do the bare minimum to not seem like Nazis.
I think this makes things to easy. A simple ban won't achieve much besides create martyrs and make a lot of currently unhappy people even more angry. And people are very unhappy with the 16 most...
I think this makes things to easy. A simple ban won't achieve much besides create martyrs and make a lot of currently unhappy people even more angry.
And people are very unhappy with the 16 most recent years of CDU rule. Even worse, the CDU of today seems sickly and weak. I doubt many AFD voters would accept the old status quo.
And then what? When someone creates a new right wing party - undoubtedly either more extreme or more insidious than the AFD, you just try to ban them again?
I don't see how that possibly could lead to a more stable democracy long-term. But I don't know the answer either. More prosperity for everybody would probably work to calm things down a bit, but that's terribly difficult to engineer...
I'll confess that as an immigrant in Germany I'm not nearly as concerned with their upholding democracy (especially given that they already ban some political parties anyway, so we're not crossing...
I'll confess that as an immigrant in Germany I'm not nearly as concerned with their upholding democracy (especially given that they already ban some political parties anyway, so we're not crossing any Rubicon here) as I am not being targeted by their policies once the weak-ass CDU inevitably is the one to break the current agreement among all other parties not to work with the AfD. I don't think banning the AfD is more likely to embolden their supporters than subsidizing their operations as an extremist organization with public funds.
I see that danger, too. Banning a party with double-digit vote representation, the strongest party in some (realistically: many) electorates? Quite a wide Rubicon, in my opinion. Honestly, I would...
once the weak-ass CDU inevitably is the one to break the current agreement among all other parties not to work with the AfD
I see that danger, too.
given that they already ban some political parties anyway, so we're not crossing any Rubicon here
Banning a party with double-digit vote representation, the strongest party in some (realistically: many) electorates? Quite a wide Rubicon, in my opinion. Honestly, I would be curious to see what the European Commission and UN election observers would say if you do something like that, not to speak of doing it shortly before or after an election.
Not only are they unhappy. They are privileged white racist, classist, sexist, ableist and call themselves christians who never had a reality check and now, thanks to a lack of media competence...
Not only are they unhappy. They are privileged white racist, classist, sexist, ableist and call themselves christians who never had a reality check and now, thanks to a lack of media competence believed the populists that they are threatened.
Also it didn’t help that Germany for decades had a conservative white government that couldn’t have cared less about nazi groups organizing and networking effectively since the 90s. This lead to them now being highly connected and established in their regions.
And only now that white politicians get attacked every one is starting to call for the police and is shocked about neo-nazi violence. We have a systemic and structural issue here.
Not so surprising when you think about how many former Nazis and Nazi collaborators were welcomed into the CDU's upper ranks when it was founded.
Also it didn’t help that Germany for decades had a conservative white government that couldn’t have cared less about nazi groups organizing and networking effectively since the 90s.
Not so surprising when you think about how many former Nazis and Nazi collaborators were welcomed into the CDU's upper ranks when it was founded.
Of course, none of this comes as a surprise if one stops and listen to those being affected by it, who have said this since basically forever. It’s just now that the nazi are getting bold enough...
Of course, none of this comes as a surprise if one stops and listen to those being affected by it, who have said this since basically forever. It’s just now that the nazi are getting bold enough to not only hurt minorities and marginalized, but also punch white cis-males into surgery that this gets the attention it should have gotten from the get go.
Guess it goes to show that (most) people only start to care once they are affected.
oh absolutely. in a way I'm kinda glad they've been emboldened to start lashing out at the white German politicians, even though it's definitely a bad sign for Germany that they're willing to be...
oh absolutely. in a way I'm kinda glad they've been emboldened to start lashing out at the white German politicians, even though it's definitely a bad sign for Germany that they're willing to be so brazen, since that means there's a chance something is actually gonna get done about them. kinda depressing.
I'm increasingly unsure that German extremism laws are a good way to combat harmful political extremism. I don't think legal action against political parties meaningfully reduces the prevalence of...
I'm increasingly unsure that German extremism laws are a good way to combat harmful political extremism. I don't think legal action against political parties meaningfully reduces the prevalence of their ideas in the current media landscape & I think anti-extremism laws can easily be used to defend the status quo against progress.
I can definitely understand where you're coming from, but allowing various three-letter agencies to surveil the AfD definitely is not an example of anti-extremism laws being used against progress....
I can definitely understand where you're coming from, but allowing various three-letter agencies to surveil the AfD definitely is not an example of anti-extremism laws being used against progress. I'm not convinced these specific laws are any more likely to lead to progress being snuffed out -- the German government could accomplish that through other means pretty easily.
Good.
To be clear tough, technically the court said that classifying them as a “potential” extremism case was legal, not that they are (even though to any non-lawyer, that kind of goes hand in hand), and that German three-letter agencies may observe and impose special surveillance on them.
It's insane to me how brazen and blatant the AFD can be in their hate of poor people, queer people, jewish people and love everything radical and Nazi-adjacent. Anyone with a brain can see that these guys are cryptofascists, and the cryptography algorithm they use to hide that is a vigenere cipher with "ADOLF" as the passphrase. It's obvious. Everyone knows they're just Nazis in blue suits. And as someone who lives in a pretty left leaning part of Germany, it scares me that barely anything is done about these dangerous dickwads. Make no mistake, this is a great start, but I can't wait until everyone realises they're terrible at and for everything. Preferably even ban them outright for being anticonstitutional.
Yeah they're like... barely even cryptofascists because they're less and less subtle about it every day.
I live in Berlin but my local Abgeordneters in Berlin Parliament are one from the AfD and one from the CDU because none of us immigrants can vote and the German citizens around here are all elderly, rich, or both. Yayyyy.
The interesting question is: What could be done? What should be done?
I'm no American free speech absolutists, but most things I can think of are undemocratic and/or seriously threaten the freedom of the press.
It's clear that a couple of million Germans are unhappy with the status quo. How do you change that?
Any bans here would likely fall under Germany's existing legislation against hate speech and Naziism. Philosophically I understand that not everyone agrees that is a good thing (I have some qualms about parts myself) but given Germany's history it's not exactly hard to see why there are ALREADY laws to prevent certain extremist groups from running. Isn't banning the Nazi party technically undemocratic too?
Would banning the AfD stop Germans who would vote for them from being racist and xenophobic? Almost certainly not. But it would hopefully prevent them from using resources as a political party to spread their ideology further within the German population and would prevent them from amassing more political power. As for those voters, there's plenty of racist anti-immigrant politicians in the CDU for them to vote for who do the bare minimum to not seem like Nazis.
I think this makes things to easy. A simple ban won't achieve much besides create martyrs and make a lot of currently unhappy people even more angry.
And people are very unhappy with the 16 most recent years of CDU rule. Even worse, the CDU of today seems sickly and weak. I doubt many AFD voters would accept the old status quo.
And then what? When someone creates a new right wing party - undoubtedly either more extreme or more insidious than the AFD, you just try to ban them again?
I don't see how that possibly could lead to a more stable democracy long-term. But I don't know the answer either. More prosperity for everybody would probably work to calm things down a bit, but that's terribly difficult to engineer...
I'll confess that as an immigrant in Germany I'm not nearly as concerned with their upholding democracy (especially given that they already ban some political parties anyway, so we're not crossing any Rubicon here) as I am not being targeted by their policies once the weak-ass CDU inevitably is the one to break the current agreement among all other parties not to work with the AfD. I don't think banning the AfD is more likely to embolden their supporters than subsidizing their operations as an extremist organization with public funds.
I see that danger, too.
Banning a party with double-digit vote representation, the strongest party in some (realistically: many) electorates? Quite a wide Rubicon, in my opinion. Honestly, I would be curious to see what the European Commission and UN election observers would say if you do something like that, not to speak of doing it shortly before or after an election.
Not only are they unhappy. They are privileged white racist, classist, sexist, ableist and call themselves christians who never had a reality check and now, thanks to a lack of media competence believed the populists that they are threatened.
Also it didn’t help that Germany for decades had a conservative white government that couldn’t have cared less about nazi groups organizing and networking effectively since the 90s. This lead to them now being highly connected and established in their regions.
And only now that white politicians get attacked every one is starting to call for the police and is shocked about neo-nazi violence. We have a systemic and structural issue here.
How do we change that?
Not so surprising when you think about how many former Nazis and Nazi collaborators were welcomed into the CDU's upper ranks when it was founded.
Of course, none of this comes as a surprise if one stops and listen to those being affected by it, who have said this since basically forever. It’s just now that the nazi are getting bold enough to not only hurt minorities and marginalized, but also punch white cis-males into surgery that this gets the attention it should have gotten from the get go.
Guess it goes to show that (most) people only start to care once they are affected.
oh absolutely. in a way I'm kinda glad they've been emboldened to start lashing out at the white German politicians, even though it's definitely a bad sign for Germany that they're willing to be so brazen, since that means there's a chance something is actually gonna get done about them. kinda depressing.
I'm increasingly unsure that German extremism laws are a good way to combat harmful political extremism. I don't think legal action against political parties meaningfully reduces the prevalence of their ideas in the current media landscape & I think anti-extremism laws can easily be used to defend the status quo against progress.
I can definitely understand where you're coming from, but allowing various three-letter agencies to surveil the AfD definitely is not an example of anti-extremism laws being used against progress. I'm not convinced these specific laws are any more likely to lead to progress being snuffed out -- the German government could accomplish that through other means pretty easily.
Big fan of the 'far-fight' AfD