Comment box Scope: relaying info, personal opinion Tone: neutral Opinion: yes Sarcasm/humor: none This legislation is good in terms of liberal values, and makes us feel equitable, but its effect...
Exemplary
Comment box
Scope: relaying info, personal opinion
Tone: neutral
Opinion: yes
Sarcasm/humor: none
This legislation is good in terms of liberal values, and makes us feel equitable, but its effect might be minor/statistically invisible.
I used to be neighbors with an admission officer of a pretty elite university. I asked her about this once, and from what I remember she said it wouldn't affect their classes much. She said there was a huge sampling bias in the data.
Legacy applicants were likely to be familiar with their parents' alma maters from a younger age, more likely to share values/personalities with the university, more likely to apply to begin with.
Legacy students More likely to visit/demonstrate interest (they're more likely to live closer, people often settle down near their alma mater), and way more likely to apply Early-Decision.
Legacies are by definition not fist-generation college students, so they have more support/knowledge about how to apply and get in places than first-generation students.
In the US "holistic" admissions process, that personality/"fit" stuff is considered almost as important as academic merit. The "legacy" checkbox is a quantitative representation of that qualitative info about personality. She said Early-Decision was the most important to determine yield because it's a binding commitment to attend, which is stable for the institution. After that, she said that they could relatively consistently control who attended based on who they gave financial aid to.
I asked her when legacy made the difference and she said maybe if the parents were large donors (several million dollars), the finance department would tell them they had to admit the student they would otherwise reject, but that wasn't common. She said there were different "tiers" of legacies/donor applications and that 95% of them were ignored. She could think of only a handful of instances this year out of thousands of applications where it was a truly unqualified student admitted for legacy/donation reasons. She said most of the time if legacy came up in admission, it was to determine if an already-qualified applicant was likely to attend or not, to calculate yield.
She seemed to think that banning the practice of legacy admissions was okay but that her university would probably just take more people in Early-Decision to make up for it, since that was where many/most legacies are applying anyway, so the class makeup would be almost identical. She said her department mainly cared about class diversity and good yield and that the finance department cared about consistent donations. Either way, their motivations were primarily related to stability/cashflow for the institution, not fairness in society.
In addition to making it harder to admit based on legacy, it makes sense to also focus on equity earlier in the educational system. Universal pre-K, more equitable school funding (maybe still based on property taxes, but not so locally), free school lunches, better school transportation (like public transit passes for all students), and other resources to even out the playing field earlier on. Also more funding to do things like host "admission fairs" with universities so that the students have exposure to higher education processes even if they live in the inner city.
Comment box Scope: comment response, personal opinion Tone: neutral Opinion: yes Sarcasm/humor: none That is the widely held view. If you look at Princeton's common data set, alumni relation is...
Comment box
Scope: comment response, personal opinion
Tone: neutral
Opinion: yes
Sarcasm/humor: none
That is the widely held view.
If you look at Princeton's common data set, alumni relation is marked as "considered." Notably it is not marked as "important" or "very important." I get that they can say whatever they want, and I can agree that legacy probably influences decisions more at Princeton than it does at most private universities, but it doesn't seem to be the focus of admissions anywhere.
Having conversations with my former neighbor changed my perspective. I didn't support legacy admissions then and still don't, but it started to seem more like a mostly symbolic change after I talked to her. This is the kind of story that gets presented like it will make a big difference ("30% of students at X university are legacy, wow that's so unfair!") but is mostly part of a bigger set of problems about the way institutions of higher education operate. When I thought about the "sampling bias" she mentioned, I started thinking about all the little ways kids fall behind in school. Language barrier, early childhood illiteracy, no money for school supplies, school doesn't offer AP classes, truancy due to family/work obligations, arrests/jailtime, drug addiction, phone addiction, childhood mental health in general. But even things like some families being able to pay for private SAT prep tutors and others not. How do you fix that?
The article says 75% of Americans believe legacy status shouldn't be considered. That's such overwhelming support it could become a Constitutional amendment. I think the area that needs attention is... the rest. Most people agree that college should be cheaper, but there seems to be no popularly accepted vision for how to make college access more equitable.
It's true that elite universities rarely admit unqualified candidates for legacy reasons, but it's also true that most rejected applicants, according to these universities themselves, are...
It's true that elite universities rarely admit unqualified candidates for legacy reasons, but it's also true that most rejected applicants, according to these universities themselves, are qualified. It's so competitive to get into these schools and the bulk of acceptances are made off of marginal differences, that the actual causal factor between someone getting in or not getting in to a school like Princeton often is legacy status.
Sure and Stanford was called out specifically in the article. Just useful for people without that context! Illinois already bans legacy admission for public institutions. Not sure that we have a...
Sure and Stanford was called out specifically in the article. Just useful for people without that context! Illinois already bans legacy admission for public institutions. Not sure that we have a private one ✨fancy✨ enough to push further. Most of the privates I've engaged with are small and not elite
U of Chicago is pretty decently sized. Thanks for the reminder. m Loyola too. About the same size as Stanford but I'm not sure either have the "elite" vibes. I went to a similarly sized Midwest...
U of Chicago is pretty decently sized. Thanks for the reminder. m
Loyola too. About the same size as Stanford but I'm not sure either have the "elite" vibes. I went to a similarly sized Midwest private university and it didn't have the cachet of Stanford either. But I work in a public university and not in an area that competes with other schools so I really have no sense for that vibe.
Probably Northwestern over Loyola. I agree that Loyola isn't that "elite." I don't think any of the other private colleges in the Chicagoland area are as elite as Northwestern or Univ. of Chicago.
Probably Northwestern over Loyola. I agree that Loyola isn't that "elite." I don't think any of the other private colleges in the Chicagoland area are as elite as Northwestern or Univ. of Chicago.
I was surprised by how high the percentage is. I didn't read the article because of paywall, but according to this article Stanford, USC, and Santa Clara all admitted greater than 13% of their...
I was surprised by how high the percentage is. I didn't read the article because of paywall, but according to this article Stanford, USC, and Santa Clara all admitted greater than 13% of their undergraduate population as legacies
Comment box
This legislation is good in terms of liberal values, and makes us feel equitable, but its effect might be minor/statistically invisible.
I used to be neighbors with an admission officer of a pretty elite university. I asked her about this once, and from what I remember she said it wouldn't affect their classes much. She said there was a huge sampling bias in the data.
In the US "holistic" admissions process, that personality/"fit" stuff is considered almost as important as academic merit. The "legacy" checkbox is a quantitative representation of that qualitative info about personality. She said Early-Decision was the most important to determine yield because it's a binding commitment to attend, which is stable for the institution. After that, she said that they could relatively consistently control who attended based on who they gave financial aid to.
I asked her when legacy made the difference and she said maybe if the parents were large donors (several million dollars), the finance department would tell them they had to admit the student they would otherwise reject, but that wasn't common. She said there were different "tiers" of legacies/donor applications and that 95% of them were ignored. She could think of only a handful of instances this year out of thousands of applications where it was a truly unqualified student admitted for legacy/donation reasons. She said most of the time if legacy came up in admission, it was to determine if an already-qualified applicant was likely to attend or not, to calculate yield.
She seemed to think that banning the practice of legacy admissions was okay but that her university would probably just take more people in Early-Decision to make up for it, since that was where many/most legacies are applying anyway, so the class makeup would be almost identical. She said her department mainly cared about class diversity and good yield and that the finance department cared about consistent donations. Either way, their motivations were primarily related to stability/cashflow for the institution, not fairness in society.
In addition to making it harder to admit based on legacy, it makes sense to also focus on equity earlier in the educational system. Universal pre-K, more equitable school funding (maybe still based on property taxes, but not so locally), free school lunches, better school transportation (like public transit passes for all students), and other resources to even out the playing field earlier on. Also more funding to do things like host "admission fairs" with universities so that the students have exposure to higher education processes even if they live in the inner city.
It depends on the university. Some schools, it's a pretty minor factor. At other schools (ex. Princeton), it's a major factor.
Comment box
That is the widely held view.
If you look at Princeton's common data set, alumni relation is marked as "considered." Notably it is not marked as "important" or "very important." I get that they can say whatever they want, and I can agree that legacy probably influences decisions more at Princeton than it does at most private universities, but it doesn't seem to be the focus of admissions anywhere.
Having conversations with my former neighbor changed my perspective. I didn't support legacy admissions then and still don't, but it started to seem more like a mostly symbolic change after I talked to her. This is the kind of story that gets presented like it will make a big difference ("30% of students at X university are legacy, wow that's so unfair!") but is mostly part of a bigger set of problems about the way institutions of higher education operate. When I thought about the "sampling bias" she mentioned, I started thinking about all the little ways kids fall behind in school. Language barrier, early childhood illiteracy, no money for school supplies, school doesn't offer AP classes, truancy due to family/work obligations, arrests/jailtime, drug addiction, phone addiction, childhood mental health in general. But even things like some families being able to pay for private SAT prep tutors and others not. How do you fix that?
The article says 75% of Americans believe legacy status shouldn't be considered. That's such overwhelming support it could become a Constitutional amendment. I think the area that needs attention is... the rest. Most people agree that college should be cheaper, but there seems to be no popularly accepted vision for how to make college access more equitable.
It's true that elite universities rarely admit unqualified candidates for legacy reasons, but it's also true that most rejected applicants, according to these universities themselves, are qualified. It's so competitive to get into these schools and the bulk of acceptances are made off of marginal differences, that the actual causal factor between someone getting in or not getting in to a school like Princeton often is legacy status.
For clarity from the article, public universities have already banned the practice in CA.
Yes definitely.
For me it's a big deal when Stanford and the Claremont colleges can't do it.
Sure and Stanford was called out specifically in the article. Just useful for people without that context! Illinois already bans legacy admission for public institutions. Not sure that we have a private one ✨fancy✨ enough to push further. Most of the privates I've engaged with are small and not elite
U. Chicago is private, Along with a number of religious universities.
U of Chicago is pretty decently sized. Thanks for the reminder. m
Loyola too. About the same size as Stanford but I'm not sure either have the "elite" vibes. I went to a similarly sized Midwest private university and it didn't have the cachet of Stanford either. But I work in a public university and not in an area that competes with other schools so I really have no sense for that vibe.
Probably Northwestern over Loyola. I agree that Loyola isn't that "elite." I don't think any of the other private colleges in the Chicagoland area are as elite as Northwestern or Univ. of Chicago.
Fair, I don't have any sense at all I realized. Thanks!
I was surprised by how high the percentage is. I didn't read the article because of paywall, but according to this article Stanford, USC, and Santa Clara all admitted greater than 13% of their undergraduate population as legacies