30 votes

Most Ukrainians now favor ending the war with Russia through negotiations, as support for fighting until victory has dropped sharply since the early days of the conflict

31 comments

  1. [12]
    redbearsam
    Link
    As other commenters have highlighted already, but to be more succinct: the title does not reflect the content of the poll in my view.

    As other commenters have highlighted already, but to be more succinct: the title does not reflect the content of the poll in my view.

    27 votes
    1. [10]
      IudexMiku
      Link Parent
      I think the title is a bit exaggerated, but not unreasonably so. The data does indeed suggest there has been a large decrease in the Ukrainian public's belief they can secure a victory over...

      I think the title is a bit exaggerated, but not unreasonably so. The data does indeed suggest there has been a large decrease in the Ukrainian public's belief they can secure a victory over Russia. I can't imagine these figures rising unless foreign support increases massively.

      8 votes
      1. [9]
        redbearsam
        Link Parent
        "Support for the war effort" and "belief they can secure a total victory" are two vastly different things.

        "Support for the war effort" and "belief they can secure a total victory" are two vastly different things.

        23 votes
        1. TheMediumJon
          Link Parent
          Yeah, some might say it is the difference between "we should surrender" vs "we will not be able to make Russia surrender".

          Yeah, some might say it is the difference between "we should surrender" vs "we will not be able to make Russia surrender".

          11 votes
        2. [7]
          thearctic
          Link Parent
          The "as soon as possible" bit is also very important. Of course, the Ukrainians don't want to fold on points they don't have to, but I think it's accurate to say that support for the war is a...

          The "as soon as possible" bit is also very important. Of course, the Ukrainians don't want to fold on points they don't have to, but I think it's accurate to say that support for the war is a fraction of what it was before.

          The frustrating element to me is that, to do an effective off-ramp, Ukrainian morale needs to stay high and they need maintain an assertive posture. It's also the case that, in a war of attrition, Russia will take more and more of Ukraine.

          4 votes
          1. [6]
            MimicSquid
            Link Parent
            It's the case that, in a war of attrition, Russia has consumed the entirety of its inheritance of USSR military gear to get the territory it already has. There's no reason to think that the force...

            It's the case that, in a war of attrition, Russia has consumed the entirety of its inheritance of USSR military gear to get the territory it already has. There's no reason to think that the force they've been able to bring to bear in the past is the same as what they'll have in the future. Both sides are wearing down in their own ways.

            9 votes
            1. [5]
              thearctic
              Link Parent
              Unless it becomes a war of attrition between the West as a whole and Russia, Russia has the natural resources, productive capacity, and manpower to outlast Ukraine. The loss in Soviet equipment I...

              Unless it becomes a war of attrition between the West as a whole and Russia, Russia has the natural resources, productive capacity, and manpower to outlast Ukraine. The loss in Soviet equipment I think is only a medium term problem for Russia. With enough time, the investments they've made into modernizing their equipment will bear fruit. One could argue that the longer conflict continues, the more pressure there will be on the regime. But, the war is by most accounts still popular in Russia, and, even if it weren't, power has been consolidated enough such that they'll be able to continue the war for a long time regardless.

              1 vote
              1. CptBluebear
                Link Parent
                Even Russia is running out of eligible men to run both the military and economic labor front. There's a bidding war between military signing bonuses and industrial businesses. They're still able...

                Even Russia is running out of eligible men to run both the military and economic labor front. There's a bidding war between military signing bonuses and industrial businesses.

                They're still able to fulfill their monthly volunteer quota but the average age of their soldiers is rapidly increasing and their economic system is feeling the squeeze of the war too.

                Unless you're talking absolute scraping the barrel total war economy, Russia is not in a good place man power wise. Neither is Ukraine, but it looks like Ukraine is at least attempting to prevent a demographic collapse after the war by keeping their draft age above 25.

                And even if you're talking absolute scraping the barrel total war economy, Russia may have the manpower and resources, but they're diplomatically isolated. Europe can get their resources elsewhere. Besides, the rest of Europe or NATO or the EU is far richer than Russia and especially the NATO block has significant man power pools in Turkey alone. As for tech, none of Russia's next gen fighter jets or tanks are able to be produced in any measurable quantity either. They simply don't have the means.

                I think you're overestimating the specter of the Soviets a bit more than they deserve. I'll never forget John McCain saying Russia is "a gas station masquerading as a country". He's on the money there.

                5 votes
              2. [3]
                MimicSquid
                Link Parent
                So far it has been exactly that war of attrition between the West as a whole and Russia. Trump is doing a great job of destabilizing that dynamic, but every country in the West that isn't headed...

                So far it has been exactly that war of attrition between the West as a whole and Russia. Trump is doing a great job of destabilizing that dynamic, but every country in the West that isn't headed by someone identified by heads of state and intelligence services as a Russian asset sees the benefit of bleeding Russia by supporting Ukraine.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  thearctic
                  Link Parent
                  Current support is insufficient, and I'm skeptical that Europe will go all in on supporting Ukraine after the US starts to bow out, even if they're fairly ideologically unified.

                  Current support is insufficient, and I'm skeptical that Europe will go all in on supporting Ukraine after the US starts to bow out, even if they're fairly ideologically unified.

                  1. MimicSquid
                    Link Parent
                    I dunno, I think that Europe will double down because they have more skin in the game. Given Russia's overall objective is to take at the very least all of the Ukrainian coast on the Black Sea all...

                    I dunno, I think that Europe will double down because they have more skin in the game. Given Russia's overall objective is to take at the very least all of the Ukrainian coast on the Black Sea all the way to the border with Romania, the EU knows that they can either support Ukraine now, or deal with an expansionist Russia on their borders in a couple of years.

                    1 vote
    2. cfabbro
      Link Parent
      I edited the topic title to be the article lede instead, since that's more accurate.

      I edited the topic title to be the article lede instead, since that's more accurate.

      7 votes
  2. [17]
    donn
    (edited )
    Link
    Man, the absolute impunity with which nuclear states operate. Russia and the US can do whatever they want and other countries can't interfere or else they'll start armageddon. It's absolutely not...

    Man, the absolute impunity with which nuclear states operate. Russia and the US can do whatever they want and other countries can't interfere or else they'll start armageddon.

    It's absolutely not fair that Ukrainians are going [EDIT: might have] to have to give up their land to end the war.

    19 votes
    1. [3]
      MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      It's also not a sure thing. Notably, while more Ukrainians than ever are willing to negotiate an end to the fighting, this poll doesn't address what they're willing to negotiate on. The major...

      It's also not a sure thing. Notably, while more Ukrainians than ever are willing to negotiate an end to the fighting, this poll doesn't address what they're willing to negotiate on. The major polls in years past that asked about that in particular showed that a large percentage of people who were willing to negotiate weren't actually willing to concede the major points that Russia was unwilling to bend on, like complete control of territories they don't actually hold in full.

      Also, other countries are interfering continuously despite Russia's bluster about nuclear red lines (which have never actually been red lines when tested.) Plenty of countries other than the USA are providing support to Ukraine without getting nuked.

      22 votes
      1. CptBluebear
        Link Parent
        You're right about that and I don't understand why Gallup doesn't dive deeper into this data, they have before. Last round this happened, the media picked up on the "collapsing war effort" story...

        You're right about that and I don't understand why Gallup doesn't dive deeper into this data, they have before.

        Last round this happened, the media picked up on the "collapsing war effort" story but if you looked a little deeper it didn't actually change how many Ukrainians wanted to concede and give in to demands, just an increase in the amount that were now willing to negotiate.

        I'm going to assume the latter holds true until someone shows me data that proves the opposite.

        Regardless, their war exhaustion must be getting to levels that are difficult to manage. The endless Russian offensives must be rough on morale. I can sit here in my safe chair and say that they can absolutely grind the Russians to a humiliating loss, but that doesn't take into account the toll of their suffering.

        13 votes
      2. V17
        Link Parent
        And iirc an interesting detail on this is that there was relative political unity in these matters, opinions were roughly the same among both Zelensky supporters and supporters of the opposition....

        The major polls in years past that asked about that in particular showed that a large percentage of people who were willing to negotiate weren't actually willing to concede the major points that Russia was unwilling to bend on, like complete control of territories they don't actually hold in full.

        And iirc an interesting detail on this is that there was relative political unity in these matters, opinions were roughly the same among both Zelensky supporters and supporters of the opposition. So it's unlikely to change even if an election happens and Zelensky loses.

        7 votes
    2. asterisk
      Link Parent
      Huh, who said that Ukraine should give up their land to end the war? Russia wants to take all Ukraine.

      Huh, who said that Ukraine should give up their land to end the war? Russia wants to take all Ukraine.

      3 votes
    3. [12]
      stu2b50
      Link Parent
      It’s not fair, but it is what it is. Fair’s never been worth much when push comes to shove. If someone is mugging you and has a gun held to your head, is it fair that you need to give them your...

      It’s not fair, but it is what it is. Fair’s never been worth much when push comes to shove.

      If someone is mugging you and has a gun held to your head, is it fair that you need to give them your wallet? No, but there’s a gun barrel next to your head, so unless you want to make your case with Jesus there’s not much you can do about it.

      3 votes
      1. [11]
        asterisk
        Link Parent
        If you want to compare, then let me provide a better example in this context. Someone want to kill you, but your door is stopping him. That someone did some damage, but still cann't to break. Now...

        If you want to compare, then let me provide a better example in this context.

        Someone want to kill you, but your door is stopping him. That someone did some damage, but still cann't to break. Now he says, that you should give a key to him. But to others he says thatʼs only about keys, not your head. And now @stu2b50 and not only repeat after that someone, that itʼs only about the key, not your head.

        1. [10]
          stu2b50
          Link Parent
          That isn’t really accurate to the situation. The person has not just broken through your door but owns your living room and garage. Obviously if Russia were kept entirely out of Ukrainian borders,...

          That isn’t really accurate to the situation. The person has not just broken through your door but owns your living room and garage.

          Obviously if Russia were kept entirely out of Ukrainian borders, as in that hypothetical, it would be stupid to randomly give them land. If that were the case we would simply have said that Russia lost the war at that point.

          In any kind of settlement the main thing Russia will ask for is that they keep the land they currently occupy.

          2 votes
          1. [9]
            asterisk
            Link Parent
            Itʼs pretty accurate to the situation. You ask to give up lands which Russia doesn't control, but have a pretty not bad defence.

            Itʼs pretty accurate to the situation. You ask to give up lands which Russia doesn't control, but have a pretty not bad defence.

            1. [8]
              stu2b50
              Link Parent
              To be honest I can’t tell what you’re even trying to say a) when did I ask anything b) that second clause isn’t valid English

              To be honest I can’t tell what you’re even trying to say

              You ask to give up lands which Russia doesn't control, but have a pretty not bad defence.

              a) when did I ask anything

              b) that second clause isn’t valid English

              1 vote
              1. [7]
                asterisk
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                You didn't understand the clause? Or do you want just to change the topic into something else?

                a) when did I ask anything

                If someone is mugging you and has a gun held to your head, is it fair that you need to give them your wallet?


                that second clause isn’t valid English

                You didn't understand the clause? Or do you want just to change the topic into something else?

                1 vote
                1. [6]
                  stu2b50
                  Link Parent
                  The formatting on this one is a mess too. The point was that fairness is an irrelevant quality in geopolitics. The only thing that matters is what leverage you have and what leverage the other...

                  The formatting on this one is a mess too.

                  The point was that fairness is an irrelevant quality in geopolitics. The only thing that matters is what leverage you have and what leverage the other party has. That is and has always been the case.

                  When someone is mugging you, the idea of fairness goes out the window. When a country invades you, that is inherently unfair - they are trying to use force of violence to coerce disproportionate gain for themselves.

                  And no, I don’t understand the second clause, it’s completely incomprehensible.

                  1 vote
                  1. [5]
                    asterisk
                    Link Parent
                    Okay, let me rephrase it. Russia asks pretty defended lands which arenʼt under their control. Do you still not understand why my comparing is a way better than your? Btw, just another question....

                    Okay, let me rephrase it. Russia asks pretty defended lands which arenʼt under their control. Do you still not understand why my comparing is a way better than your?

                    Btw, just another question. Whereʼre you from?

                    1. [4]
                      stu2b50
                      Link Parent
                      This sentence doesn’t make sense. Unless you’re commenting about the beauty of the land? I’m going to assume you mean that Russia is asking for land which they do not control. That’s kinda...

                      Russia asks pretty defended lands which arenʼt under their control

                      This sentence doesn’t make sense. Unless you’re commenting about the beauty of the land? I’m going to assume you mean that Russia is asking for land which they do not control.

                      That’s kinda irrelevant to the situation. Putin is going to ask for the world because it’s the starting negotiation and he holds most of the cards.

                      The realistic ceasefire would involve turning the current lines of control into semi-permanent borders, the same way the DMZ is in Korea or the LoCs in Kashmir.

                      But that’s also irrelevant: my point is that fairness doesn’t matter.

                      Do you think fairness matters?

                      1 vote
                      1. [3]
                        asterisk
                        Link Parent
                        Huh? Iʼm pretty sure, «pretty» is a synonym for «very» or something like this. Ehm… if you bring Korea here, you assume, Ukraine would have a good secury guaranty? If so, then why Ukraine doesn't...

                        Huh? Iʼm pretty sure, «pretty» is a synonym for «very» or something like this.

                        Ehm… if you bring Korea here, you assume, Ukraine would have a good secury guaranty? If so, then why Ukraine doesn't see any realized guaranty already? Just for compare & reminding, Korea already had allies during the war on their lands (which isnʼt totally the same case here). So DMZ isnʼt possilbe here. Canʼt say about Kashmir so, because I donʼt know their situation. But I know about Ukraine & Russia very well. So… where are you from?

                        1. [2]
                          stu2b50
                          Link Parent
                          No, not in that context. You'd have to say "pretty well defended" if you had to use the word "pretty", or "heavily defended". But that still wouldn't make sense. I also don't think "defended"...

                          No, not in that context. You'd have to say "pretty well defended" if you had to use the word "pretty", or "heavily defended". But that still wouldn't make sense. I also don't think "defended" makes a lot of sense in thsi case. I assume you're trying to say something in the vein of

                          "Russia is ask_ing_ for heavily fortified land they don't control".

                          Ehm… if you bring Korea here, you assume, Ukraine would have a good secury guaranty?

                          I feel like you legitimately have no idea what I'm trying to say if that's what you got out of it.

                          So… where are you from?

                          Where do you think I'm from?

                          1 vote
                          1. asterisk
                            Link Parent
                            Ehm… thatʼs why Iʼm asking? Can you into normal dialog, not this shit (as the next one too). As I said, DMZ (or Korean situation) isnʼt possible here. You tell me. Why you cannʼt tell directly and...

                            I feel like you legitimately have no idea what I'm trying to say if that's what you got out of it.

                            Ehm… thatʼs why Iʼm asking? Can you into normal dialog, not this shit (as the next one too). As I said, DMZ (or Korean situation) isnʼt possible here.

                            Where do you think I'm from?

                            You tell me. Why you cannʼt tell directly and simple, without any round-going?

                            2 votes
  3. [2]
    thearctic
    Link

    More than three years into the war, Ukrainians’ support for continuing to fight until victory has hit a new low. In Gallup’s most recent poll of Ukraine — conducted in early July — 69% say they favor a negotiated end to the war as soon as possible, compared with 24% who support continuing to fight until victory.

    This marks a nearly complete reversal from public opinion in 2022, when 73% favored Ukraine fighting until victory and 22% preferred that Ukraine seek a negotiated end as soon as possible.

    8 votes
    1. Sodliddesu
      Link Parent
      It's obvious that losing your blank check makes you rethink writing a new one but also making that hard is that there's no end in sight to the fighting. It should also be noted that this comes...

      One in four (25%) think it is likely that active fighting will come to an end within the next 12 months, although only 5% see it as “very likely.” Over two-thirds (68%) think it is unlikely that active fighting will come to an end in the next year.

      It's obvious that losing your blank check makes you rethink writing a new one but also making that hard is that there's no end in sight to the fighting.

      It should also be noted that this comes with a complete collapse in US favorability. War Fatigue is a hell of a debuff.

      13 votes