33 votes

Why the US Navy won't open Hormuz

12 comments

  1. [12]
    psi
    Link
    It's worth bearing these facts in mind when Trump complains about how our allies won't "help" in opening the Strait of Hormuz. Beyond the lack of incentives (the war is deeply unpopular and Trump...

    Back in the Persian Gulf today, the Navy grasps the reality of the circumstances, recognizing that it simply can’t sail into the strait without risk getting blown to smithereens by Iran’s missiles. Today, its carriers are stationed well outside the Gulf and the ranges of Iranian missiles.

    [...]

    This is why the U.S. Navy hasn’t attempted to force its way through the strait. Simply put, Iran is threatening extremely expensive and manpower-intensive U.S. ships with weapons that are a fraction of the cost in exchange. Moreover, the United States can’t easily replace destroyed or damaged vessels due to the well-documented decline of the shipbuilding industrial base.

    It's worth bearing these facts in mind when Trump complains about how our allies won't "help" in opening the Strait of Hormuz. Beyond the lack of incentives (the war is deeply unpopular and Trump is wont to downplay allies' contributions regardless), Trump demands other countries do what the US Navy cannot. It's an impossible ask for nothing in return.

    34 votes
    1. [2]
      bkimmel
      Link Parent
      It seems especially damaging to the U.S. as well, that before this boondoggle this was all somewhat "theoretical" that this kind of asymmetric warfare against U.S. carrier fleets would be...

      It seems especially damaging to the U.S. as well, that before this boondoggle this was all somewhat "theoretical" that this kind of asymmetric warfare against U.S. carrier fleets would be effective but it has just made the jump from theory to practice in a pretty convincing way. Iran is probably kicking themselves at this point on Hormuz thinking "why didn't we just do this earlier"? And I imagine others are watching and thinking roughly the same thing in whatever region they are in.

      22 votes
      1. chocobean
        Link Parent
        Especially when one is going up against a "well liked" "popular" superpower, you don't want to ever be accused of starting anything, instead of justifiably defending themselves. If they had held...

        Especially when one is going up against a "well liked" "popular" superpower, you don't want to ever be accused of starting anything, instead of justifiably defending themselves. If they had held up Hormuz first, the US could have called their bluff, sent ships, then they'd have to back down OR attack it triggering NATO article 5.

        6 votes
    2. [9]
      Eric_the_Cerise
      Link Parent
      It may be a nit-pick, but I feel it's an important distinction. The US Navy absolutely can do this. Trump is just not willing to risk US lives or hardware to do it, but he's perfectly happy to...

      do what the US Navy cannot.

      It may be a nit-pick, but I feel it's an important distinction. The US Navy absolutely can do this. Trump is just not willing to risk US lives or hardware to do it, but he's perfectly happy to threaten and cajole his "allies" into risking their people and hardware, to help clean up the mess he's caused.

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [2]
          chocobean
          Link Parent
          Even if we hadn't been bombarded by idiocy for the past year, even in the best of times, why would these allies absorb casualties for the US as a shield? It seems like that would be the kind of...

          But doing so risks casualties that haven't been seen in the US since WWII. It seems like the US thought they could do this using other navies' as shields to test Iranian doctrine, but the other navies come from countries that have been insulted, abused, and threatened with invasion of the last year.

          Even if we hadn't been bombarded by idiocy for the past year, even in the best of times, why would these allies absorb casualties for the US as a shield? It seems like that would be the kind of operation that would be super unpopular at home even when things are friendly.

          Canada suffered the third-highest absolute number of deaths of any nation among the foreign military participants, and one of the highest casualties per capita of coalition members since the beginning of the war (Wikipedia, Canada in the war in Afghanistan)

          I'm just glad we're not going in there this time.

          9 votes
          1. norb
            Link Parent
            I would think that past administrations would have had an actual reason for beginning an operation like this and would have garnered international support BEFORE doing military excursions that...

            Even if we hadn't been bombarded by idiocy for the past year, even in the best of times, why would these allies absorb casualties for the US as a shield? It seems like that would be the kind of operation that would be super unpopular at home even when things are friendly.

            I would think that past administrations would have had an actual reason for beginning a war an operation like this and would have garnered international support BEFORE doing war military excursions that caused a major shipping lane for the entire world to be closed down almost completely. I would think the economic aspects alone would've made the case for international cooperation.

            Therefor the international help would've been warranted and supported, instead of whatever the fuck is going on now since it most likely would've been initiated by something the Iranians did or some other tangible issue that needed a kinetic response as the last option.

            6 votes
      2. [5]
        psi
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I would not say the Navy can absolutely secure the Strait; I would say they can maybe secure it, and even then I would remain somewhat skeptical. I think it's hard to have a properly calibrated...

        I would not say the Navy can absolutely secure the Strait; I would say they can maybe secure it, and even then I would remain somewhat skeptical. I think it's hard to have a properly calibrated notion of the capabilities of the US military. It's very large and very well-funded, especially compared to other militaries, but its resources are not infinite. There are, therefore, necessarily things the US cannot do, even if we presume it better equipped than any other country. Our failure in Afghanistan serves as an an obvious, recent example.

        Assuming you haven't read it yet, I would recommend this piece I submitted a few days ago. I'll quote the relevant passage:

        For the United States, a purely military solution is notionally possible: you could invade. But as noted, Iran is very, very big and has a large population, so a full-scale invasion would be an enormous undertaking, larger than any US military operation since the Second World War. Needless to say, the political will for this does not exist. But a ‘targeted’ ground operation against Iran’s ability to interdict the strait is also hard to concieve. Since Iran could launch underwater drones or one-way aerial attack drones from anywhere along the northern shore the United States would have to occupy many thousands of square miles to prevent this and of course then the ground troops doing that occupying would simply become the target for drones, mortars, artillery, IEDs and so on instead.

        One can never know how well prepared an enemy is for something, but assuming the Iranians are even a little bit prepared for ground operations, any American force deployed on Iranian soil would end up eating Shahed and FPV drones – the sort we’ve seen in Ukraine – all day, every day.

        Meanwhile escort operations in the strait itself are also deeply unpromising. For one, it would require many more ships, because the normal traffic through the strait is so large and because escorts would be required throughout the entire Gulf (unlike the Red Sea crisis, where the ‘zone’ of Houthi attacks was contained to only the southern part of the Red Sea). But the other problem is that Iran possesses modern anti-ship missiles (AShMs) in significant quantity and American escort ships (almost certainly Arleigh Burke-class destroyers) would be vulnerable escorting slow tankers in the constrained waters of the strait.

        It isn’t even hard to imagine what the attack would look like: essentially a larger, more complex version of the attack that sunk the Moskva, to account for the Arleigh Burke’s better air defense. Iran would pick their moment (probably not the first transit) and try to distract the Burke, perhaps with a volley of cheap Shahed-type drones against a natural gas tanker, before attempting to ambush the Burke with a volley of AShMs, probably from the opposite direction. The aim would be to create just enough confusion that one AShM slipped through, which is all it might take to leave a $2.2bn destroyer with three hundred American service members on board disabled and vulnerable in the strait. Throw in speed-boats, underwater drones, naval mines, fishing boats pretending to be threats and so on to maximize confusion and the odds that one of perhaps half a dozen AShMs slips through.

        And if I can reason this out, Iran – which has been planning for this exact thing for forty years certainly can. Which is why the navy is not eager to run escort.

        13 votes
        1. [4]
          Eric_the_Cerise
          Link Parent
          I suppose there is a chance that the US Navy is literally incapable of meeting the challenge. I'll stipulate that. However, in all of these kinds of discussions, there is an inherent underlying...

          I suppose there is a chance that the US Navy is literally incapable of meeting the challenge. I'll stipulate that.

          However, in all of these kinds of discussions, there is an inherent underlying assumption that the US is not supposed to suffer losses, or at least, not significant losses. To say that, in securing the strait, the US might well lose one or more high-value, expensive boats, that potentially hundreds of US military personnel might be injured or die ... this is not the same as saying that the US cannot do it, but only that the US chooses not to even try ... but, again, does not bat an eye at trying to foist off the exact same job on literally any other country on Earth that's willing to try.

          5 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            It's worth taking into account that the American public's tolerance for American deaths - while absolutely hypocritical by dividing people into "us and them" - is also likely correlated to not...

            It's worth taking into account that the American public's tolerance for American deaths - while absolutely hypocritical by dividing people into "us and them" - is also likely correlated to not wanting the war to begin with. I don't want service members to die because I don't think this was a fight we should have gotten involved in. (I also don't want anyone else to die. ) We caused the strait to be mined, I suspect that we're not likely the solution and some mix of business and diplomacy will be.

            But no I don't see the point in throwing American lives and money at it any more than I did in the first place.

            14 votes
          2. psi
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            You're right to highlight the hypocrisy. However, I would go further and say that European forces almost certainly cannot secure the straight, so Trump is essentially trying to pass the buck to...

            You're right to highlight the hypocrisy. However, I would go further and say that European forces almost certainly cannot secure the straight, so Trump is essentially trying to pass the buck to Europe even though Europe has realistically no way of accomplishing the task.

            But regardless of the effectiveness of the military operation, there is also the economic angle. Suppose the US/Europe could mostly secure the strait. Well, what would that mean? If transport ships "only" had a 1/20 chance of being sunk, would it even make financial sense to attempt the crossing? Oil tankers cost from ~10 - 100 million dollars and take years to build. Ship owners (not to mention sailors) might well decide it's simply not worth the risk.

            11 votes
          3. Grzmot
            Link Parent
            The Hormuz strait isn't an area you can invest lives and materiel to take and then occupy. Being there exposes you to rockets and drones launched from Iran, from which you have to always defend...

            The Hormuz strait isn't an area you can invest lives and materiel to take and then occupy. Being there exposes you to rockets and drones launched from Iran, from which you have to always defend yourself from. Even worse, you're very close to where the drones are getting manufactured. Iran would likely keep up the production and overwhelm enemy ships in the strait.

            Given how invested China is in supporting Russia in Ukraine, I think they would absolutely dedicate resource production to help Iran keep up its drone and rocket production. The US would have to secure enough of the country that drones can't make it to the strait, which seems unfeasible to me.

            Additionally, the strait is probably already mined and the US mothballed mine clearing ships a while back.

            Of course if the US declared total war and dedicated its entire economy it's likely they would beat Iran. But that's not the option that's on the table, and it's very realistic that even with manpower and American deaths involved, you still would not secure the strait.

            11 votes
      3. CptBluebear
        Link Parent
        I'm not entirely sure of that anymore. The paradigm of war shifted that the US isn't yet equipped to handle. Countering drone warfare has proven to be incredibly difficult. Risking your...

        I'm not entirely sure of that anymore. The paradigm of war shifted that the US isn't yet equipped to handle.

        Countering drone warfare has proven to be incredibly difficult. Risking your multibillion dollar ships to fire from a drone workshopped in an alley is just a bad value proposition whichever way you slice it.

        12 votes