13 votes

Topic deleted by author

28 comments

  1. [3]
    anti
    (edited )
    Link
    I have to admit when I see the regular "news" about anti-fa this or that I've wavered in support where it comes to violence. About halfway through the video I've realized that I did fall prey --...

    I have to admit when I see the regular "news" about anti-fa this or that I've wavered in support where it comes to violence. About halfway through the video I've realized that I did fall prey -- just a bit -- to the false equivalence of "both sides." It's always more complicated than that.

    Whether violence is justified or not, and who has the authority or power or right to dish it out, is always a sticky set of questions. I think, for me, it's only after the act that justification comes into play; and, that justification is always the opinion of some subset of the public. When the violence becomes history, and the history that leads to the violence can be seen, then it can be analyzed.

    Let's say there are two kinds of violence: law-making and law-preserving. The former is the kind of violence that is used to found states which have a monopoly on power or to usurp established power. The latter instead serves to continue and uphold the monopoly on power previously established. The first kind leads to the second, and the collapse of the authority of the second leads back to the first. It is a cycle.

    In my mind anti-fa violence is of the second category. It doesn't have the purpose of establishing a new order, but of preserving a fixture of the current order of power -- or rather, preventing law-making violence.

    It is I suppose a kind of vigilante violence, but it is oddly still in service to the state -- at least, we can say that so far, it has been. Which is a kind of irony given that anti-fa is composed of people mostly against the monopoly of power that the state has. Still better than the alternative, no?

    7 votes
    1. harrygibus
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I have a hard time believing that antifa is acting in the law preserving role as otherwise you would see them acting in concert with the police force. The police force is often enforcing it's own...

      I have a hard time believing that antifa is acting in the law preserving role as otherwise you would see them acting in concert with the police force. The police force is often enforcing it's own "sole right" to act as a law preserving force on the antifascist protestors.

      The violent antifascists are acting in a way to preserve an ideology of (yes, I see the irony of using this term) "natural law" - that no one has the right to subjugate or kill anyone else (or speak about their inherent right to the same) - [one] that the government or police force has failed to prevent. I[t] would seem that the racist fascists will only be happy when the races are either; 1) segregated (while the fascists maintain the higher tier in the hierarchy) or: 2) they remove the purported inferior race.

      I know AnacroCaps will argue till they're blue in the face that taxes are theft and an extension of the violence of the state but the same could be argued about corporations in a capitalist framework.

      7 votes
    2. withershins
      Link Parent
      the following is only really responding or building off of this line of yours: dominik finkelde, a german philosopher from the hochschule für philosophie münchen, recently came out with a book (or...

      the following is only really responding or building off of this line of yours:

      "When the violence becomes history, and the history that leads to the violence can be seen, then it can be analyzed."

      dominik finkelde, a german philosopher from the hochschule für philosophie münchen, recently came out with a book (or it was recently translated to english) called excessive subjectivity that argues that there are instances in history where the moral agenda of (usually) one person leads to a revolution in morality that is only named moral retroactively by a future generation. he calls these moments of excessive subjectivity as it is the personal sensitivity (resembling neurosis) of that individual that brings about the revolution. if we think of it in terms of that species to genus metaphor that zizek sometimes uses, the personal sensitivity of the individual starts as a species in a given genus (i.e. it begins as a particular) but then slowly becomes the genus itself (i.e. it becomes a universality).

      he offers several examples: jesus of nazareth, in that the christian cult began as a particular species of the genus judaism but then became the state religion of the roman empire; vladimir lenin, in that marxism-leninism began as a particular species of the genus marxism but then became the predominant theory of marxism; rosa parks, in that her personal sensitivity (the refusal to give up the backseat of the bus) helped bolster the civil rights movement (in a lecture he said that what she did was amoral relative to the historical context but that that singular act of amorality has now come to be viewed as an ideal instance of morality, or it is an act that has retroactively been bestowed moral sense); and finally edward snowden, in that there was some personal neurotic sensitivity that drove him to become a whistleblower and that in this post-snowden age we can more or less affirm that which he did as moral.

      he spins out a bunch of kant, hegel, and lacan, but i will now focus more on the first thinker than the others as i have adequately put into layman's terms the (relevant) parts he borrows from the latter two. he uses kant's discussion of the "focus imaginarius" and a picture of an anamorphic installation of salvador dali's face as an example (you can look up the example he used by simply searching "salvador dali anamorphic installation") of the focus imaginarius. the example can be understood when one takes into account the idea that an anamorphosis is only intelligible from a specific location, a focus imaginarius, as otherwise if one were to step away from that specific viewpoint, one will end up being exposed to a "multiplicity of multiplicities" such that the artwork becomes unintelligible and appears to be a bunch of junk. finkelde says that individuals with excessive subjectivity tend to be one of these art patrons that steps away from the political focus imaginarius and the whole political anamorphosis consequently becomes unintelligible to them such that their personal sensitivity guides them to act amorally (i.e. contrary to the prevailing morality).

      to sum it all up: occasionally it is necessarily to act outside, or against, the laws of the prevailing ideology in order to establish a new paradigm of morality that will retroactively be given moral sense. unfortunately, i don't think antifa really is acting outside or against the laws of the prevailing ideology and in some ways only works to reinforce them (as i think you've already said). i think they're practically and theoretically all over the place. still, i am moderately invested in their struggle, and the struggle of organizations like them, for the reason that (to draw on a passage in kierkegaard) "i must have the possible, or else i will suffocate." there's latent potential everywhere for revolutionary change, the task of theory is to unlock it. we may say the individual's finkelde investigates are keys to the lock, but even then i remain skeptical of the idea that we only need one individual (great man theory is antithetical to a materialist conception of history).

      5 votes
  2. [5]
    Neverland
    (edited )
    Link
    I hate fascists. I also think antifa is a great propaganda tool for fascists. Only antifa gives any equivalency argument to the violence from the right which can then be shown on Fox News. My...

    I hate fascists. I also think antifa is a great propaganda tool for fascists. Only antifa gives any equivalency argument to the violence from the right which can then be shown on Fox News.

    My conspiracy mind sometimes entertains the idea that antifa is actually full of right wing agitators false-flagging it up.

    edit: regarding my "conspiracy theory" I realize the answer is probably much simpler. I just think antifa is a propaganda gift to the alt-right.

    6 votes
    1. [2]
      moriarty
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I'm really torn on the issue. On the one hand, I agree with you that antifa had provided a great lightning rod for the "sane right" to gather around and tsktsk at. But on the other, do Fox,...

      I'm really torn on the issue. On the one hand, I agree with you that antifa had provided a great lightning rod for the "sane right" to gather around and tsktsk at. But on the other, do Fox, Breitbart and the likes really need any factual-based arguments to railroad liberals? Whatever they don't have they make up and distort to their need. In a public sphere where journalistic integrity and honesty are paramount, I'll agree with you, but this isn't the case anymore. And as much as I dislike violence as a means to get your message across, I can't help feeling that maybe the philosophy of appeasement isn't very effective against fascism. It wasn't before

      7 votes
      1. Neverland
        Link Parent
        I am somewhat torn myself. That did not come through in original comment. I cannot disagree with anything you just said.

        I am somewhat torn myself. That did not come through in original comment. I cannot disagree with anything you just said.

        2 votes
    2. [2]
      bchall
      Link Parent
      The video made the important point that fascists, especially those of today, are great at marketing. Their alignment with Fox News, Breitbart, et. al. definitely helps in this regard. It seems...

      The video made the important point that fascists, especially those of today, are great at marketing. Their alignment with Fox News, Breitbart, et. al. definitely helps in this regard. It seems pretty evident that if antifascists want to be more effective against the false equivalency argument, they'll need to get good at marketing as well. Videos like this certainly help, but I can't imagine your average Joe watching a 1-hour Philosophy Tube video after work the same way one might come home and switch on Fox News.

      6 votes
      1. Neverland
        Link Parent
        I completely agree. Right now the game is in the media. The moment all the real, existing, right wing militias try to execute on their plans, I will be the first one in the streets. Until then,...

        I completely agree. Right now the game is in the media. The moment all the real, existing, right wing militias try to execute on their plans, I will be the first one in the streets. Until then, it's all in the media and antifa is losing that game big time. That's why my conspiracy theory comes to mind. Seriously, how stupid can people be?

        1 vote
  3. [15]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [14]
      hungariantoast
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      What exactly is your definition of "not suck"? Current posts and comments on notabug front page: Using slurs on servers can get you instabanned! Which currently sports excellent discussion in the...

      making notabug.io not suck

      What exactly is your definition of "not suck"?

      Current posts and comments on notabug front page:

      Using slurs on servers can get you instabanned!

      Which currently sports excellent discussion in the comments such as:

      "Cunts." and "NI-Double-G-ER!"

      Or this post, also on the front page at the time of writing this comment:

      The Philosophy of Antifa | Philosophy Tube

      Again, with discussion in the comments section:

      "A bunch of white trash communists wiggers."

      Also, let's not forget the most voted post on notabug.io at the time of writing this comment:

      Anarcho Communism in Action

      If you'd like, you can see the comments on that post for yourself.

      I like the idea of notabug, sort of, but what's the endgame here? The site should be censorship free even if it turns into the kind of forum that hosts discussion similar to that of /b/ or /pol/ on 4chan?

      Also, one last thing, based on the content being posted by the users of notabug, how do you think they really feel about the quote at the bottom of the page:

      "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

      and the context in which it was written?

      Also, I want to be clear, I am not attacking you or the site, but I genuinely want to know what your idea is for the website and how you plan on making that happen, which is something I care about knowing if I am going to participate there, and something Tildes has spoiled me to.

      6 votes
      1. [9]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Do you really need to derail a thread about antifa with your questions about some other website?

        Do you really need to derail a thread about antifa with your questions about some other website?

        7 votes
        1. [5]
          pseudolobster
          Link Parent
          @go1dfish seems to bring up their site pretty often. It's a pretty frequent topic in everything they post. Free speech seems to be a really fundamental issue for them, and they frequently remind...

          @go1dfish seems to bring up their site pretty often. It's a pretty frequent topic in everything they post. Free speech seems to be a really fundamental issue for them, and they frequently remind people their site exists as a more free-speech oriented version of what we're trying to do here.

          I agree, derailing conversations with meta bullshit is really annoying, but there's a lot of precedent here.

          Right now the top post I'm seeing on the front page of notabug is this gem from /t/niggers: https://notabug.io/t/niggers/comments/b7555280c4ce8c61eaab13d9f5107cc41b792c6b/ferguson-was-just-the-start

          So, yeah. Every post @go1dfish makes, they promote their site. Understandably so. They've been encouraged to do so. But, it seems whenever they do, it's divisive, polarizing, and leads to a ton of derailed threads. How should we deal with this? Should we encourage people to not call out the elephant in the room? Or should we encourage people not to link to polarizing sites or topics?

          11 votes
          1. [4]
            Algernon_Asimov
            Link Parent
            This isn't even meta bullshit about Tildes, though: it's meta bullshit about some other website. Ignore it. Never respond to go1dfish's mentions of that website. Never ask questions about it....

            I agree, derailing conversations with meta bullshit is really annoying, but there's a lot of precedent here.

            This isn't even meta bullshit about Tildes, though: it's meta bullshit about some other website.

            How should we deal with this?

            Ignore it. Never respond to go1dfish's mentions of that website. Never ask questions about it. Never raise issues with it. Just ignore it. Every time someone calls them out or asks questions, it just gives go1dfish another opportunity to promote their site. If we think the site is already being promoted too much, why encourage it by engaging with go1dfish and giving them more opportunities to promote it?

            7 votes
            1. [3]
              pseudolobster
              Link Parent
              Sounds like the same approach notabug uses. Ignore it. Let it happen. Nobody say anything. Hopefully they'll figure out for themselves their content isn't welcome. Hopefully somehow they'll be...

              Sounds like the same approach notabug uses. Ignore it. Let it happen. Nobody say anything. Hopefully they'll figure out for themselves their content isn't welcome. Hopefully somehow they'll be discouraged from posting such content because I dunno, the invisible hand probably.

              11 votes
              1. [2]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                Well, go1dfish isn't going to stop just because people like you or me ask him to. And replying to his promotional comments with questions and concerns is only going to provide him with more of a...

                Well, go1dfish isn't going to stop just because people like you or me ask him to. And replying to his promotional comments with questions and concerns is only going to provide him with more of a platform. The only thing, therefore, that people like us can do is to ignore those comments. Don't give them oxygen.

                The only person who can stop this is Deimos. If this bothers you that much, message him with your concerns.

                6 votes
                1. [2]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. Algernon_Asimov
                    Link Parent
                    I owe you an apology. I had assumed that any request to tone down your perceived spamming would be met with a tirade about freedom of speech, and how your content shouldn't be censored, and how...

                    If I’m mentioning my project too much just ask me to tone it down and I will.

                    I owe you an apology. I had assumed that any request to tone down your perceived spamming would be met with a tirade about freedom of speech, and how your content shouldn't be censored, and how you have every right to inform people about your site to give them freedom to choose, and so on. I'm sorry about assuming that.

                    I don’t think I mention it as often as you are perceiving

                    I get that your intention here was merely to mention what had been keeping you busy, and not to promote your site. It's someone else's fault that your mere mention has turned into a derail - because, of course you'll answer their questions (that's only polite!), and of course people will discuss those answers, and so on. Luckily it's your own post being derailed, not someone else's.

                    But, apart from this, you do seem to gratuitously mention your website a bit more than necessary - to the point where I've occasionally wondered if one of your motives for signing up to Tildes was to take advantage of the opportunity to promote your own Reddit-competitor to any people who are (inevitably) disillusioned about this site (because Deimos won't please everyone with his approach).

                    4 votes
        2. [3]
          hungariantoast
          Link Parent
          pseudolobster already wrote most of what I would put in my reply to this. I can understand how my comment could be perceived as "derailing" the thread, but I think any comment, so long as it is...

          pseudolobster already wrote most of what I would put in my reply to this.

          I agree, derailing conversations with meta bullshit is really annoying, but there's a lot of precedent here.

          I can understand how my comment could be perceived as "derailing" the thread, but I think any comment, so long as it is relevant to another comment in a thread, is justified in existing, regardless of whether or not that comment is relevant to the overall topic of the thread.

          So, "derailing" aside, what is your ideal goal for comments on Tildes? Every comment in a thread be concerned with the topic of the thread? What kind of deviations in comments do you think should be acceptable, when we look at the context of a thread and the comments in that thread?

          Also, I'm not inviting you to reply to this comment, although you're obviously allowed to, but wouldn't it, according to you, be more appropriate to make a new post about this topic?

          Because personally, I think a post about how "on-topic" comments should be, would be very interesting discussion for the community, and I urge you to make that post.

          5 votes
          1. [2]
            anti
            Link Parent
            Nah, you derailed the thread. Stop patting yourself on the back and stop. Your post is precisely the kind of one that a moderator on a linear forum would remove to maintain the topic of the thread.

            Nah, you derailed the thread. Stop patting yourself on the back and stop. Your post is precisely the kind of one that a moderator on a linear forum would remove to maintain the topic of the thread.

            3 votes
            1. hungariantoast
              Link Parent
              Why exactly? Because I brought up valid questions and concerns about a website that OP has commonly linked in their comments? Also let's not forget that the video from this post was also posted on...

              Why exactly? Because I brought up valid questions and concerns about a website that OP has commonly linked in their comments?

              Also let's not forget that the video from this post was also posted on notabug and I specifically referenced the sister post on notabug in my comment.

              I'm keeping with relevancy here, even if I'm not specifically talking about the video of the post.

              4 votes
      2. [5]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. hungariantoast
          Link Parent
          Honestly I don't have the slightest issue with you linking notabug in your comments. I just think that if you're going to link it, then it should be fair game for anyone to make a comment about it...

          Honestly I don't have the slightest issue with you linking notabug in your comments. I just think that if you're going to link it, then it should be fair game for anyone to make a comment about it in reply to any comment that you include the link in, which others seem to disagree with.

          I was genuinely curious about notabug and I saw some things I wasn't sure about, I brought them up in my comment, you replied and explained everything to a way that I found satisfactory for my own curiosity and I think was relevant to the theme of discussion here on Tildes, so thank you for that.

          4 votes
        2. [2]
          pseudolobster
          Link Parent
          No worries. It looks like it's been quite the project, and you've made a lot of progress. It's not for me, but I honestly don't mind you posting about it. I can just ignore it, but it does derail...

          @pseudolobster I’m conscious of this too and try to avoid mentioning it all the time, is a pretty big focus of my life at the moment though so it pops in. If people think I’m getting spammy with it I’d be happy to stop mentioning it. I’m not trying to bill it as a competitor to tildes, and I pimp tildes on other sites to appropriate audiences.

          No worries. It looks like it's been quite the project, and you've made a lot of progress. It's not for me, but I honestly don't mind you posting about it. I can just ignore it, but it does derail conversations pretty hard and pretty often. I think maybe an standalone post about it, like an update log in ~tech would be better maybe, since then you can tag it and people can filter that tag if they're really squicked out by the content of your site.

          Sorry for the delayed response, I just wanted to wait until 3 days was up so I'm not bumping the thread with more off-topic derailed conversation.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. pseudolobster
              Link Parent
              Yes, that's my biggest reason for not spending time there, and I suspect a few others as well. I look forward to these developments.

              If it's because you don't share my free speech absolutism then my hope is that I will be able to get you more interested once I build out a moderation/community structure on top of the current anarchy of topics.

              For notabug.io my goal is decentralized yishan-reddit in terms of policy and features but I do to build out moderation/community tools for enabling a much more sanitized experience as well.

              Yes, that's my biggest reason for not spending time there, and I suspect a few others as well. I look forward to these developments.

              1 vote
        3. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          Seeing as this thread is already derailed... I opened the "Anarcho Communism in Action" that @hungariantoast included in their comment. It took a couple of minutes for that page to load. For the...

          Seeing as this thread is already derailed...

          The performance improvements @starchturrets noted.

          I opened the "Anarcho Communism in Action" that @hungariantoast included in their comment. It took a couple of minutes for that page to load. For the first minute or so, I thought it was a dead link because there was no content on the page. Then I watched as each subsequent set of comments appeared every 10-20 seconds.

          1 vote
  4. [5]
    Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    I don't normally sit and watch hour-long videos on the internet. I dislike videos as a form of delivering information; I prefer text articles, that I can read at my own pace (which is often faster...

    I don't normally sit and watch hour-long videos on the internet. I dislike videos as a form of delivering information; I prefer text articles, that I can read at my own pace (which is often faster than a speaker on YouTube will go - which is why videos are frustrating for me).

    However, I found this video gripping and interesting, and I surprised myself by listening to it the whole way through.

    Thanks.

    5 votes
    1. [4]
      Prometheus720
      Link Parent
      Chrome and all Chromium projects should support a nice little extension called Video Speed Controller. You may be accustomed to YouTube's speed controls, and they're alright, but this works on ANY...

      Chrome and all Chromium projects should support a nice little extension called Video Speed Controller. You may be accustomed to YouTube's speed controls, and they're alright, but this works on ANY HTML5 video anywhere. What's even better is that you have much finer control over the speed--you choose the increment.

      You can also go slower than .5 or faster than 2.00.

      Highly recommend it. I picked it up for language-learning and kept it when watching lectures for university on crappy Pearson-esque websites.

      4 votes
      1. Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll still mostly keep reading articles. (Another reason is that I'm better at absorbing information visually than aurally.)

        Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I'll still mostly keep reading articles. (Another reason is that I'm better at absorbing information visually than aurally.)

        4 votes
      2. [2]
        tvfj
        Link Parent
        Anyone who uses Firefox can simply Shift + Right-click on the video (which pulls up the native context menu), go to Play Speed, and select from 0.5, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0 speed without an extension....

        Anyone who uses Firefox can simply Shift + Right-click on the video (which pulls up the native context menu), go to Play Speed, and select from 0.5, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0 speed without an extension.

        Or, the same extension is available.

        2 votes
        1. hungariantoast
          Link Parent
          Had no idea this was a feature, thank you.

          Anyone who uses Firefox can simply Shift + Right-click on the video

          Had no idea this was a feature, thank you.

          1 vote
  5. demifiend
    Link
    I don't really have a problem with antifa. IMO, fascists and other authoritarians should be suppressed whenever and wherever they arise. Ideally, this suppression should take the form of public...

    I don't really have a problem with antifa. IMO, fascists and other authoritarians should be suppressed whenever and wherever they arise. Ideally, this suppression should take the form of public mockery, shaming, and ostracism.

    If that doesn't work, then by all means beat them up.

    And if beating them up doesn't beat them down, then kill them. The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.

    5 votes