I've been thinking about this for a long time. I've got friends in Ukraine who've gone to fight and reading the discourse online from that conflict is extremely interesting. It's not just the few...
I've been thinking about this for a long time.
I've got friends in Ukraine who've gone to fight and reading the discourse online from that conflict is extremely interesting. It's not just the few social media sites where we give our opinions and spout off about various things... it's even in places like LinkedIn where disrupting professional relationships can be even more detrimental to how a nation percieves itself. There was even a message on our General Slack channel yesterday that the topic was off-limits everywhere in the business, not vindicitively, but because we know it's going to start garnering problems for everyone.
In an era where selfies of you buying chicken and eating in the park are to be 'respected' as much as long-form articles on the pros/cons of supporting a side in a war, where the hell does that leave us as a society? Where everyone is expected to hold a strong opinion for one side or another, understand the intricacies, ups, downs, dos and do nots of a side... how the hell are you supposed to just get on?
If that last question isn't rhetorical: Disengage. Even in our own countries we have a lot of shit to deal with, and even the ones not at war. We ought to keep a finger on the global pulse as...
If that last question isn't rhetorical: Disengage.
Even in our own countries we have a lot of shit to deal with, and even the ones not at war. We ought to keep a finger on the global pulse as citizens of the world, but we don't need to track every murder, or the specifics of every atrocity. They will be broadcast, and they will be recorded. There will always be enough people for these mechanisms to be in place, so if any individual simply needs to survive their own environment there should be no shame in being ignorant for a day or a year if that's what it takes to be a better, healthier person or global citizen.
This premise doesn't work if you assume everybody would do it, but not everybody will. Some can manage tracking these events with no issue, and track all the events. Others will be crushed under their load, or give in to the propagandist machinations described in the OP, or just become bitter and angry about it. People will also rotate in and out around the stalwart observers.
One more caveat, I think, is you also still have something of a responsibility as a concerned person to pay attention to your own society/country, but that is far more manageable than tracking everything, especially if it is also involving social media discourse. However, I've gone radio-silent on politics a few times because it became too much and I can't chamge anything outside of an election window or petition signing, and can always catch up later.
You're pretty much on the track I've actually taken. I've never been big on Social Media from the start. I had a Facebook and nuked it in 2011/2012, never had IG/TikTok or any of the others as I...
You're pretty much on the track I've actually taken. I've never been big on Social Media from the start. I had a Facebook and nuked it in 2011/2012, never had IG/TikTok or any of the others as I just don't really care about anyone elses opinion. I've got a LinkedIn as I've got to do the schmoozing thing (that I actually weirdly enjoy) for my job, I also get to write a lot so there's a solid bit of goodness there.
But the rest of social media? I just don't get it as much as I may try. I took my dog for a walk yesterday with my wife, we literally saw a woman taking selfies of herself on the street corner holding a box of chicken (thus my remark above) and we were both absolutely baffled. The inanity of the very activity of doing something like that, the "I've got nothing important to say except for my own presence" has led us down this dark path where so many fucke up opinions/views/thoughts are carried like they're experts, simply because they can be heard.
It's frustrating. But like you said, "disengage" is a way to stay sane, if baffled. But that's on an individual level, on a more social level? You're pretty much Shit out of luck.
I simply don't post my political positions or have political discussions under my real name. What I do say is anodyne and inoffensive support for pretty universally agreed upon values. I'm not...
I simply don't post my political positions or have political discussions under my real name. What I do say is anodyne and inoffensive support for pretty universally agreed upon values.
I'm not exactly shy about my opinions, and freely share them when asked in a personal context. But I just don't think broadcasting yet another derivative take to all and sundry is healthy. It's also not really what I use social media for anymore.
If you have a normal expectation that you simply don't use platforms that much aside from some very specific things then nobody expects you to be posting opinions.
I think it's fine to have political conversation with your name attached, politics is part of life. What is really problematic though? Is how we're all quite tailored to just go "YOU SUPPORT X?...
I think it's fine to have political conversation with your name attached, politics is part of life. What is really problematic though? Is how we're all quite tailored to just go "YOU SUPPORT X? FUCK YOU!" and it get aggressive really quickly.
Conversation with nuance appears to have gone the way of the dodo.
There's a difference between a conversation, as in a discussion between people, and broadcasting, which is the equivalent on standing on a soapbox with a megaphone. Social media operates like...
I think it's fine to have political conversation with your name attached, politics is part of life. What is really problematic though? Is how we're all quite tailored to just go "YOU SUPPORT X? FUCK YOU!" and it get aggressive really quickly.
There's a difference between a conversation, as in a discussion between people, and broadcasting, which is the equivalent on standing on a soapbox with a megaphone.
Social media operates like broadcasting, but gives up the direct 1:1 lines of communication as you'd get in a conversation. But everyone is still talking at each other in megaphone platitudes instead of with each other to achieve mutual understanding.
It was, frankly, always this way. It's why the very well worn social understanding to not discuss politics or religion in polite company ever became a norm in the first place. Any interactions on social media I treat as "polite company." I just don't say things I wouldn't want reprinted, out of context, in a newspaper because that's functionally what publishing your thoughts on social media is.
You're right there, it's been a long day and I think my brains a little bit blurry on details but you're saying what I want to say... but in good English as opposed to "There's not enough caffeine...
You're right there, it's been a long day and I think my brains a little bit blurry on details but you're saying what I want to say... but in good English as opposed to "There's not enough caffeine in this brain"-English.
I wonder if we have become polarised because those types of conversations can't be had in safe space / third spaces anymore? The digital age took over and the 'Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory' becomes prevelant in those spaces instead?
I think that's definitely part of it. I feel like "debate bro" approaches to discussion sort of metastatsized out of the internet into the mainstream and it's really been weaponized. Especially...
I wonder if we have become polarised because those types of conversations can't be had in safe space / third spaces anymore?
I think that's definitely part of it. I feel like "debate bro" approaches to discussion sort of metastatsized out of the internet into the mainstream and it's really been weaponized. Especially once the internet was in everyone's pockets, including the majority of people who only read at an 8th grade level at the best of times and probably significantly less cogently when they're scrolling through apps in line at the coffee shop.
Yeah. If you're not willing to throw down for your feelings and beliefs... Then you're fair game to a lot of those folks. Doesn't help that everything has to he a recordable, dopamine-infused...
Yeah. If you're not willing to throw down for your feelings and beliefs... Then you're fair game to a lot of those folks. Doesn't help that everything has to he a recordable, dopamine-infused spectacle either.
The answer to that question depends a lot on who you are and a lot of nuances. Now, I get how important it is to stand up for what is right but I do have an issue with circle-jerking where each...
Where everyone is expected to hold a strong opinion for one side or another, understand the intricacies, ups, downs, dos and do nots of a side... how the hell are you supposed to just get on?
The answer to that question depends a lot on who you are and a lot of nuances. Now, I get how important it is to stand up for what is right but I do have an issue with circle-jerking where each member in your family, school, society, etc. are shouting the exact same thing at the loudest decibel possible. In that situation, I'd rather sit back and not be one of the front cheerleaders of that tribe. I'd rather examine that issue critically and think about the pros and cons and various aspects, even discuss these things with someone in a calm debate rather than join the cheerleading crowd.
Too much circle-jerking and cheerleading is quite toxic for society and usually doesn't lead to good outcomes. Most importantly, that one issue hijacks too much space on the discussion table which could have been allocated to some other more pressing issue.
I'm very much of the same ilk, I often can't help but feel like everyone is screaming "HEY, THE SKY IS BLUE HERE!" just for the attention, rather than to actually provoke a conversation, debate or...
The answer to that question depends a lot on who you are and a lot of nuances. Now, I get how important it is to stand up for what is right but I do have an issue with circle-jerking where each member in your family, school, society, etc. are shouting the exact same thing at the loudest decibel possible. In that situation, I'd rather sit back and not be one of the front cheerleaders of that tribe. I'd rather examine that issue critically and think about the pros and cons and various aspects, even discuss these things with someone in a calm debate rather than join the cheerleading crowd.
I'm very much of the same ilk, I often can't help but feel like everyone is screaming "HEY, THE SKY IS BLUE HERE!" just for the attention, rather than to actually provoke a conversation, debate or anything more. Then someone always argues that the sky is in fact orange and it descends into a flamewar where no-one has anything but fury to throw.
Too much circle-jerking and cheerleading is quite toxic for society and usually doesn't lead to good outcomes. Most importantly, that one issue hijacks too much space on the discussion table which could have been allocated to some other more pressing issue.
The absolute reciepe we've been seeing for the culture war. "What do you mean 'times are tough' I'd be more outraged at trans people ... reeee-" type thinking throws down topics that are painful, emotive and nuanced against things that actually matter to the vast majority of people.
It's so frustrating to see almost all conversation degrade into this type of shit flinging.
I agree that discussing who is right or wrong isn't all that helpful. This article is about "what it all means." But before any of that, it would be good to know what happened and where things...
I agree that discussing who is right or wrong isn't all that helpful. This article is about "what it all means." But before any of that, it would be good to know what happened and where things stand. (Not that I need to know, but it's a start to following this conflict at all.)
Links that are particularly helpful in that respect would be welcome.
I've been thinking about this for a long time.
I've got friends in Ukraine who've gone to fight and reading the discourse online from that conflict is extremely interesting. It's not just the few social media sites where we give our opinions and spout off about various things... it's even in places like LinkedIn where disrupting professional relationships can be even more detrimental to how a nation percieves itself. There was even a message on our General Slack channel yesterday that the topic was off-limits everywhere in the business, not vindicitively, but because we know it's going to start garnering problems for everyone.
In an era where selfies of you buying chicken and eating in the park are to be 'respected' as much as long-form articles on the pros/cons of supporting a side in a war, where the hell does that leave us as a society? Where everyone is expected to hold a strong opinion for one side or another, understand the intricacies, ups, downs, dos and do nots of a side... how the hell are you supposed to just get on?
If that last question isn't rhetorical: Disengage.
Even in our own countries we have a lot of shit to deal with, and even the ones not at war. We ought to keep a finger on the global pulse as citizens of the world, but we don't need to track every murder, or the specifics of every atrocity. They will be broadcast, and they will be recorded. There will always be enough people for these mechanisms to be in place, so if any individual simply needs to survive their own environment there should be no shame in being ignorant for a day or a year if that's what it takes to be a better, healthier person or global citizen.
This premise doesn't work if you assume everybody would do it, but not everybody will. Some can manage tracking these events with no issue, and track all the events. Others will be crushed under their load, or give in to the propagandist machinations described in the OP, or just become bitter and angry about it. People will also rotate in and out around the stalwart observers.
One more caveat, I think, is you also still have something of a responsibility as a concerned person to pay attention to your own society/country, but that is far more manageable than tracking everything, especially if it is also involving social media discourse. However, I've gone radio-silent on politics a few times because it became too much and I can't chamge anything outside of an election window or petition signing, and can always catch up later.
You're pretty much on the track I've actually taken. I've never been big on Social Media from the start. I had a Facebook and nuked it in 2011/2012, never had IG/TikTok or any of the others as I just don't really care about anyone elses opinion. I've got a LinkedIn as I've got to do the schmoozing thing (that I actually weirdly enjoy) for my job, I also get to write a lot so there's a solid bit of goodness there.
But the rest of social media? I just don't get it as much as I may try. I took my dog for a walk yesterday with my wife, we literally saw a woman taking selfies of herself on the street corner holding a box of chicken (thus my remark above) and we were both absolutely baffled. The inanity of the very activity of doing something like that, the "I've got nothing important to say except for my own presence" has led us down this dark path where so many fucke up opinions/views/thoughts are carried like they're experts, simply because they can be heard.
It's frustrating. But like you said, "disengage" is a way to stay sane, if baffled. But that's on an individual level, on a more social level? You're pretty much Shit out of luck.
I simply don't post my political positions or have political discussions under my real name. What I do say is anodyne and inoffensive support for pretty universally agreed upon values.
I'm not exactly shy about my opinions, and freely share them when asked in a personal context. But I just don't think broadcasting yet another derivative take to all and sundry is healthy. It's also not really what I use social media for anymore.
If you have a normal expectation that you simply don't use platforms that much aside from some very specific things then nobody expects you to be posting opinions.
I think it's fine to have political conversation with your name attached, politics is part of life. What is really problematic though? Is how we're all quite tailored to just go "YOU SUPPORT X? FUCK YOU!" and it get aggressive really quickly.
Conversation with nuance appears to have gone the way of the dodo.
There's a difference between a conversation, as in a discussion between people, and broadcasting, which is the equivalent on standing on a soapbox with a megaphone.
Social media operates like broadcasting, but gives up the direct 1:1 lines of communication as you'd get in a conversation. But everyone is still talking at each other in megaphone platitudes instead of with each other to achieve mutual understanding.
It was, frankly, always this way. It's why the very well worn social understanding to not discuss politics or religion in polite company ever became a norm in the first place. Any interactions on social media I treat as "polite company." I just don't say things I wouldn't want reprinted, out of context, in a newspaper because that's functionally what publishing your thoughts on social media is.
You're right there, it's been a long day and I think my brains a little bit blurry on details but you're saying what I want to say... but in good English as opposed to "There's not enough caffeine in this brain"-English.
I wonder if we have become polarised because those types of conversations can't be had in safe space / third spaces anymore? The digital age took over and the 'Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory' becomes prevelant in those spaces instead?
I think that's definitely part of it. I feel like "debate bro" approaches to discussion sort of metastatsized out of the internet into the mainstream and it's really been weaponized. Especially once the internet was in everyone's pockets, including the majority of people who only read at an 8th grade level at the best of times and probably significantly less cogently when they're scrolling through apps in line at the coffee shop.
Yeah. If you're not willing to throw down for your feelings and beliefs... Then you're fair game to a lot of those folks. Doesn't help that everything has to he a recordable, dopamine-infused spectacle either.
The answer to that question depends a lot on who you are and a lot of nuances. Now, I get how important it is to stand up for what is right but I do have an issue with circle-jerking where each member in your family, school, society, etc. are shouting the exact same thing at the loudest decibel possible. In that situation, I'd rather sit back and not be one of the front cheerleaders of that tribe. I'd rather examine that issue critically and think about the pros and cons and various aspects, even discuss these things with someone in a calm debate rather than join the cheerleading crowd.
Too much circle-jerking and cheerleading is quite toxic for society and usually doesn't lead to good outcomes. Most importantly, that one issue hijacks too much space on the discussion table which could have been allocated to some other more pressing issue.
I'm very much of the same ilk, I often can't help but feel like everyone is screaming "HEY, THE SKY IS BLUE HERE!" just for the attention, rather than to actually provoke a conversation, debate or anything more. Then someone always argues that the sky is in fact orange and it descends into a flamewar where no-one has anything but fury to throw.
The absolute reciepe we've been seeing for the culture war. "What do you mean 'times are tough' I'd be more outraged at trans people ... reeee-" type thinking throws down topics that are painful, emotive and nuanced against things that actually matter to the vast majority of people.
It's so frustrating to see almost all conversation degrade into this type of shit flinging.
I agree that discussing who is right or wrong isn't all that helpful. This article is about "what it all means." But before any of that, it would be good to know what happened and where things stand. (Not that I need to know, but it's a start to following this conflict at all.)
Links that are particularly helpful in that respect would be welcome.