I think this article is written from the standpoint of an incorrect, but common presumption about Facebook. When one leaves Facebook, there's this idea that your absence from FB is an...
I think this article is written from the standpoint of an incorrect, but common presumption about Facebook. When one leaves Facebook, there's this idea that your absence from FB is an inconvenience for others who want to be in touch with you or update you with the goings on. The reality though, in my view, is that the inconvenience falls to the user of FB who can't be bothered to get in touch with other people in any other way, and who "spend" all of their social energy on the platform on a facade of interaction.
I disagree. If you choose to make yourself harder to contact, that's your choice and your inconvenience. It's not up to me to find time to invite you to things by email or whatever your preferred...
I disagree. If you choose to make yourself harder to contact, that's your choice and your inconvenience. It's not up to me to find time to invite you to things by email or whatever your preferred messaging system is.
"Social energy" isn't the only currency here, simple free time is. I had to arrange a large and fairly complex event last year and some people invited weren't on Facebook. OK, fine - but each one of those people multiplied the amount of time I had to put in to the project - instead of just posting one thing to the FB event page, I had to email each of those people (or one guy hated email so I had to send him messages via Signal). Then I had to deal with their followup questions, which were invariably already answered, often by people who weren't me so took none of my time, on Facebook. When I was co-ordinating stuff in real-ish time with the group the non-Facebookers weren't on the group chat so each conversation had to happen again for each of those people. The whole process was awkward and extremely time-consuming.
I'm organising the same event again this year except this time my wife is 8 months pregnant. I simply don't have time to hold each of the non-Facebook people's hands, so they have been given a link to the FB event and that's all they are getting. It's not because I don't like them, because I do - it's because I have more important things to do with my limited free time.
Facebook is a shitshow for a number of reasons but it solves an important one-to-many communication need for modern life. Sure, other tools can solve that problem - arguably far better in almost all cases - but you try getting people who can barely work their phones and still, a decade in, can't really use Facebook, to use something else.
I reject the idea that by not participating in a for-profit company which purely exists to sell "access" to my personal information, I'm making myself difficult to contact. Email is simply a...
I reject the idea that by not participating in a for-profit company which purely exists to sell "access" to my personal information, I'm making myself difficult to contact. Email is simply a communication standard, and in that sense, I would say the guy who "didn't like email" is at fault in that situation, but Facebook should not be expected in the same way that a phone number or email address is.
I understand why you'd want to reject the idea, but the fact remains that if you're in a certain demographic, you are harder to contact without Facebook. Of course if you want to make that choice...
I understand why you'd want to reject the idea, but the fact remains that if you're in a certain demographic, you are harder to contact without Facebook. Of course if you want to make that choice that's fine and there are plenty of legit reasons to make that choice - but the consequences of that choice are on you, not on the people who want to contact you.
Personally, email isn't standard for personal communications any more - my retired Dad is the only person who emails me any more with personal stuff, all my other email is work or mailing lists - but Facebook definitely is. Because for all it's downsides, Facebook simply works much better than email and phone. Try organising 150+ people from several different countries by phone and email alone (especially when you don't have phone or email details for some of them) and get back to me about how hard that is compared to posting an event on Facebook. One of the reasons Facebook is so huge is that it solves a significant communication problem that email and phone (and the rest) do not.
Also I know far more people through Facebook and other social networks than I have email addresses or phone numbers for, and I suspect I'm not uncommon in that regard either.
Obviously that's not true for everyone - younger people are less likely to use Facebook, techie people who give a crap about "personal data" as well - but there's a lot of people that it is true for. Most of my peer group, for sure. Don't think I haven't tried, because I have. I now have three friends who use Signal. Three. And I have to have Whatsapp, FB Messenger, Telegram and goodness only knows what else installed to try to keep in touch with other people. Facebook is the commonest denominator by a long way, and when time is a valuable resource, that matters.
As I said, I wish it wasn't Facebook, I wish it was something rather less shitty in how it operates. But who uses Ello, Diaspora, MeWe or any of the others? Nobody does. They're great projects in terms of philosophy and ethics but ultimately they don't do the job I need them to do.
I understand your point, but I think the fact that you think only "techie people" should and/or do care about their personal data is highly concerning, and an expression of a large and growing...
I understand your point, but I think the fact that you think only "techie people" should and/or do care about their personal data is highly concerning, and an expression of a large and growing problem. The 2016 election was arguably won by mathematically targeting groups of voters, using their personal Facebook data to spread false information to them that would emotionally resonate with them; To me, and many others who care about the issue, that election was the epitome of a growing issue with personal data and dismissing it in that way is insulting and irresponsible.
It's not that I think that so much as that is what seems to be the case. I wish more people did care, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that they do. When the Cambridge Analytica story...
It's not that I think that so much as that is what seems to be the case. I wish more people did care, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that they do. When the Cambridge Analytica story first broke in mid 2016 I was hopeful that was going to mean things would change. Then it broke again a bit later. And once more quite recently. Few people seemed to care much. I haven't seen any noticable exodus from Facebook among my friends. It's a complex issue which requires a certain amount of reading around to understand and lots of people just don't have the time to do that. I'm not making any kind of value judgement or dismissing any of the people. It is what it is, that's all.
What happened with the US election and the UK referendum before that is absolutely horrifying. But while that certainly has some bearing on whether you choose to be on Facebook or not, I'm not sure what it has to do with how easy you are or not to contact.
Zuckerberg could literally be stabbing babies on a livestream 24/7 and Facebook would still be the best way to contact people. Admittedly not for very long, he might be slippery as fuck but he's not that non-stick - but still. Facebook's ethics (and 'ethics' is a very strong word for the way they operate) are not the question here.
The way Facebook handles user data is the question in the Cambridge Analytica situation, which directly affects every single user of Facebook. I would agree with you if the issue was something...
The way Facebook handles user data is the question in the Cambridge Analytica situation, which directly affects every single user of Facebook. I would agree with you if the issue was something like Zuckerberg using revenue from ads to form political action committees, or sure, if he was a personally evil person doing evil things personally, but that's not what we're talking about, and the "stabbing babies" example is a false equivalency to the CA issue of data misuse. Also, it seems like your solution is that "well no one cares so why care?", which seems like a pretty huge logical fallacy to me.
I didn't say I don't care. I do care. Nothing I wrote had the intent of communicating that "no-one cares so why care at all", if you read it that way then I apologise for not being clear enough....
I didn't say I don't care. I do care. Nothing I wrote had the intent of communicating that "no-one cares so why care at all", if you read it that way then I apologise for not being clear enough.
I'm just not sure why you want to make this conversation about how easy or not people without Facebook accounts are to contact into a discussion about Facebook's (mis)use of data and their business ethics. That's a whole different conversation and one we probably agree almost entirely about. I say almost because I don't quite care enough to cut myself off from my friends on the site where you obviously feel differently.
If everyone I know jumped ship to MeWe this afternoon they'd find me already there waiting for them. But that's not going to happen so Facebook remains the best way to contact a significant proportion of people. Sucks but there it is.
Okay I think I'm understanding your position better now. I get what your point was in bringing up "techie-people" as those who care, in that we obviously have fundamentally different ideas about...
Okay I think I'm understanding your position better now. I get what your point was in bringing up "techie-people" as those who care, in that we obviously have fundamentally different ideas about the platform itself. I appreciate the conversation; I'm glad I have a bit more perspective from the viewpoint your coming from.
fwiw, I count myself as one of the 'techie people', so if that did sound dismissive it was only through familiarity rather than contempt. Dismission wasn't my intention at all. :)
fwiw, I count myself as one of the 'techie people', so if that did sound dismissive it was only through familiarity rather than contempt. Dismission wasn't my intention at all. :)
I email people at work, but basically for no other reason. My communication consists of text, phonecall, and Facebook. In fact, none of my friends or acquaintances use email either except for a...
I email people at work, but basically for no other reason. My communication consists of text, phonecall, and Facebook. In fact, none of my friends or acquaintances use email either except for a few instances of friends/family outside of the country.
A lot of people look at Facebook the way you seem to; a platform for vanity and inanity, but it is actually a very powerful communication tool. It is set up so well for that sort of event; it's so easy to post a change or a note and have everyone able to see it right away. It's almost impossible to schedule by phonecall if there's more than 2 people, especially if it requires some group decision-making. It's annoying to use text messaging because of the constant alerts, plus you often have to scroll through many replies before getting to the actual information (not to mention getting bumped down to the bottom every effing time a new text comes in when you're just trying to see the beginning of the conversation). Email has similar shortcomings. Maybe Google calendar or something would work, but it's hard to find a platform as ubiquitous as Facebook.
I still make an effort to invite and inform my friends without Facebook, but you'd better believe I am annoyed at them the entire time I'm scheduling.
I do agree with this statement. For me, I just couldn't be bothered. If contacting me is not worth the effort, then I believe we've reached the end of our relationship. And that's okay. However, I...
I disagree. If you choose to make yourself harder to contact, that's your choice and your inconvenience. It's not up to me to find time to invite you to things by email or whatever your preferred messaging system is.
I do agree with this statement. For me, I just couldn't be bothered. If contacting me is not worth the effort, then I believe we've reached the end of our relationship. And that's okay. However, I do make an effort to stay in touch with people I want to.
Yea, that's definitely the case in my experience. I stopped using Facebook a long time ago when I was finding high school and getting into college, which is a point in life when social networking...
Yea, that's definitely the case in my experience. I stopped using Facebook a long time ago when I was finding high school and getting into college, which is a point in life when social networking and friends are extremely important/relevant (and everyone used Facebook back then).
I was never the social butterfly, so maybe because of that it didn't change my social life much. If my friends were planning something (like a party, going to the movies, hanging out, etc), they would tell me whenever we met. If I ever wanted to suggest something, I'd do the same. Sure, I didn't know what Sarah thought about the latest drama, but I never cared about that. Really I only ever used Facebook groups.
I'll say it was a little bit limiting back then, since Facebook was the main source of communication. Nowadays, however it actually makes no difference to me. With all the different messaging solutions (Telegram, WhatsApp, Discord, etc.), I have no reasons to use Facebook.
I did the same. People say that it's harder to keep in touch with friends if you don't have Facebook, to which I argue that if they're someone worth keeping in touch with I'll find a way using one...
I did the same. People say that it's harder to keep in touch with friends if you don't have Facebook, to which I argue that if they're someone worth keeping in touch with I'll find a way using one of the many other means we have for communication.
It is a little odd that people think you’re harder to reach if you don’t have Facebook. Although it’s also funny when you consider Facebook is considered the social media platform for “lame older...
It is a little odd that people think you’re harder to reach if you don’t have Facebook. Although it’s also funny when you consider Facebook is considered the social media platform for “lame older people like our parents.”
Whatever the generation after millennials is called, isn’t using Facebook. They may not be using email to set up their get togethers either, but they’re also not in the “difficult to contact” crowd.
I think people are mistaking the shift away from Facebook as a fad. I think they’re going to have to accept that they’re going to need to start coming up with other mass invitation methods sooner rather than later.
Add another who deleted FB many years ago. I took a social media class several years ago and was the only student who did not have an FB account. Interestingly enough, the other students who did...
Add another who deleted FB many years ago. I took a social media class several years ago and was the only student who did not have an FB account. Interestingly enough, the other students who did have an account only used it to keep in touch with parents/relatives. Almost all of them had moved on to exclusively use Twitter or Instagram, it was a fairly even split if I remember correctly.
I despise Facebook, it is essentially the YouTube trending page where it is full of really aweful Buzzfeed like content. I wish I could totally delete it however they have the critical user number...
I despise Facebook, it is essentially the YouTube trending page where it is full of really aweful Buzzfeed like content.
I wish I could totally delete it however they have the critical user number where most the world is on it. I have everything set to private and never post I exclusively use the 'Messenger' app as it has a good feature set and lots of my friends are on it.
I just hope some future alternative can grow in numbers to create some competition for the messenger app.
A Facebook account is what you make of it. Privacy issues aside, I find it useful for very limited informational needs, like contacting someone if that's their main way to communicate. Otherwise,...
A Facebook account is what you make of it. Privacy issues aside, I find it useful for very limited informational needs, like contacting someone if that's their main way to communicate. Otherwise, I avoid it. I'm not proud of that fact, like some my age who brag about not having this or that, and I don't despise it. It's just not useful to me.
I feel for those who've made it a lifestyle choice, because research indicates they're being ruthlessly gamed, but then I have to have my coffee every day. The fact is we all make lifestyle choices, resigning ourselves to put up with some inconvenience for what we see as benefits. In its day, television was just as much of a social obligation, just less pervasive.
I think this article is written from the standpoint of an incorrect, but common presumption about Facebook. When one leaves Facebook, there's this idea that your absence from FB is an inconvenience for others who want to be in touch with you or update you with the goings on. The reality though, in my view, is that the inconvenience falls to the user of FB who can't be bothered to get in touch with other people in any other way, and who "spend" all of their social energy on the platform on a facade of interaction.
I disagree. If you choose to make yourself harder to contact, that's your choice and your inconvenience. It's not up to me to find time to invite you to things by email or whatever your preferred messaging system is.
"Social energy" isn't the only currency here, simple free time is. I had to arrange a large and fairly complex event last year and some people invited weren't on Facebook. OK, fine - but each one of those people multiplied the amount of time I had to put in to the project - instead of just posting one thing to the FB event page, I had to email each of those people (or one guy hated email so I had to send him messages via Signal). Then I had to deal with their followup questions, which were invariably already answered, often by people who weren't me so took none of my time, on Facebook. When I was co-ordinating stuff in real-ish time with the group the non-Facebookers weren't on the group chat so each conversation had to happen again for each of those people. The whole process was awkward and extremely time-consuming.
I'm organising the same event again this year except this time my wife is 8 months pregnant. I simply don't have time to hold each of the non-Facebook people's hands, so they have been given a link to the FB event and that's all they are getting. It's not because I don't like them, because I do - it's because I have more important things to do with my limited free time.
Facebook is a shitshow for a number of reasons but it solves an important one-to-many communication need for modern life. Sure, other tools can solve that problem - arguably far better in almost all cases - but you try getting people who can barely work their phones and still, a decade in, can't really use Facebook, to use something else.
I reject the idea that by not participating in a for-profit company which purely exists to sell "access" to my personal information, I'm making myself difficult to contact. Email is simply a communication standard, and in that sense, I would say the guy who "didn't like email" is at fault in that situation, but Facebook should not be expected in the same way that a phone number or email address is.
I understand why you'd want to reject the idea, but the fact remains that if you're in a certain demographic, you are harder to contact without Facebook. Of course if you want to make that choice that's fine and there are plenty of legit reasons to make that choice - but the consequences of that choice are on you, not on the people who want to contact you.
Personally, email isn't standard for personal communications any more - my retired Dad is the only person who emails me any more with personal stuff, all my other email is work or mailing lists - but Facebook definitely is. Because for all it's downsides, Facebook simply works much better than email and phone. Try organising 150+ people from several different countries by phone and email alone (especially when you don't have phone or email details for some of them) and get back to me about how hard that is compared to posting an event on Facebook. One of the reasons Facebook is so huge is that it solves a significant communication problem that email and phone (and the rest) do not.
Also I know far more people through Facebook and other social networks than I have email addresses or phone numbers for, and I suspect I'm not uncommon in that regard either.
Obviously that's not true for everyone - younger people are less likely to use Facebook, techie people who give a crap about "personal data" as well - but there's a lot of people that it is true for. Most of my peer group, for sure. Don't think I haven't tried, because I have. I now have three friends who use Signal. Three. And I have to have Whatsapp, FB Messenger, Telegram and goodness only knows what else installed to try to keep in touch with other people. Facebook is the commonest denominator by a long way, and when time is a valuable resource, that matters.
As I said, I wish it wasn't Facebook, I wish it was something rather less shitty in how it operates. But who uses Ello, Diaspora, MeWe or any of the others? Nobody does. They're great projects in terms of philosophy and ethics but ultimately they don't do the job I need them to do.
I understand your point, but I think the fact that you think only "techie people" should and/or do care about their personal data is highly concerning, and an expression of a large and growing problem. The 2016 election was arguably won by mathematically targeting groups of voters, using their personal Facebook data to spread false information to them that would emotionally resonate with them; To me, and many others who care about the issue, that election was the epitome of a growing issue with personal data and dismissing it in that way is insulting and irresponsible.
It's not that I think that so much as that is what seems to be the case. I wish more people did care, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that they do. When the Cambridge Analytica story first broke in mid 2016 I was hopeful that was going to mean things would change. Then it broke again a bit later. And once more quite recently. Few people seemed to care much. I haven't seen any noticable exodus from Facebook among my friends. It's a complex issue which requires a certain amount of reading around to understand and lots of people just don't have the time to do that. I'm not making any kind of value judgement or dismissing any of the people. It is what it is, that's all.
What happened with the US election and the UK referendum before that is absolutely horrifying. But while that certainly has some bearing on whether you choose to be on Facebook or not, I'm not sure what it has to do with how easy you are or not to contact.
Zuckerberg could literally be stabbing babies on a livestream 24/7 and Facebook would still be the best way to contact people. Admittedly not for very long, he might be slippery as fuck but he's not that non-stick - but still. Facebook's ethics (and 'ethics' is a very strong word for the way they operate) are not the question here.
The way Facebook handles user data is the question in the Cambridge Analytica situation, which directly affects every single user of Facebook. I would agree with you if the issue was something like Zuckerberg using revenue from ads to form political action committees, or sure, if he was a personally evil person doing evil things personally, but that's not what we're talking about, and the "stabbing babies" example is a false equivalency to the CA issue of data misuse. Also, it seems like your solution is that "well no one cares so why care?", which seems like a pretty huge logical fallacy to me.
I didn't say I don't care. I do care. Nothing I wrote had the intent of communicating that "no-one cares so why care at all", if you read it that way then I apologise for not being clear enough.
I'm just not sure why you want to make this conversation about how easy or not people without Facebook accounts are to contact into a discussion about Facebook's (mis)use of data and their business ethics. That's a whole different conversation and one we probably agree almost entirely about. I say almost because I don't quite care enough to cut myself off from my friends on the site where you obviously feel differently.
If everyone I know jumped ship to MeWe this afternoon they'd find me already there waiting for them. But that's not going to happen so Facebook remains the best way to contact a significant proportion of people. Sucks but there it is.
Okay I think I'm understanding your position better now. I get what your point was in bringing up "techie-people" as those who care, in that we obviously have fundamentally different ideas about the platform itself. I appreciate the conversation; I'm glad I have a bit more perspective from the viewpoint your coming from.
fwiw, I count myself as one of the 'techie people', so if that did sound dismissive it was only through familiarity rather than contempt. Dismission wasn't my intention at all. :)
I email people at work, but basically for no other reason. My communication consists of text, phonecall, and Facebook. In fact, none of my friends or acquaintances use email either except for a few instances of friends/family outside of the country.
A lot of people look at Facebook the way you seem to; a platform for vanity and inanity, but it is actually a very powerful communication tool. It is set up so well for that sort of event; it's so easy to post a change or a note and have everyone able to see it right away. It's almost impossible to schedule by phonecall if there's more than 2 people, especially if it requires some group decision-making. It's annoying to use text messaging because of the constant alerts, plus you often have to scroll through many replies before getting to the actual information (not to mention getting bumped down to the bottom every effing time a new text comes in when you're just trying to see the beginning of the conversation). Email has similar shortcomings. Maybe Google calendar or something would work, but it's hard to find a platform as ubiquitous as Facebook.
I still make an effort to invite and inform my friends without Facebook, but you'd better believe I am annoyed at them the entire time I'm scheduling.
I do agree with this statement. For me, I just couldn't be bothered. If contacting me is not worth the effort, then I believe we've reached the end of our relationship. And that's okay. However, I do make an effort to stay in touch with people I want to.
Yea, that's definitely the case in my experience. I stopped using Facebook a long time ago when I was finding high school and getting into college, which is a point in life when social networking and friends are extremely important/relevant (and everyone used Facebook back then).
I was never the social butterfly, so maybe because of that it didn't change my social life much. If my friends were planning something (like a party, going to the movies, hanging out, etc), they would tell me whenever we met. If I ever wanted to suggest something, I'd do the same. Sure, I didn't know what Sarah thought about the latest drama, but I never cared about that. Really I only ever used Facebook groups.
I'll say it was a little bit limiting back then, since Facebook was the main source of communication. Nowadays, however it actually makes no difference to me. With all the different messaging solutions (Telegram, WhatsApp, Discord, etc.), I have no reasons to use Facebook.
when youre drowning in drama, its hard to see how stupid the whole thing is.
I quit years back when I realized I did nothing but message people. I then just switched to texting.
I did the same. People say that it's harder to keep in touch with friends if you don't have Facebook, to which I argue that if they're someone worth keeping in touch with I'll find a way using one of the many other means we have for communication.
It is a little odd that people think you’re harder to reach if you don’t have Facebook. Although it’s also funny when you consider Facebook is considered the social media platform for “lame older people like our parents.”
Whatever the generation after millennials is called, isn’t using Facebook. They may not be using email to set up their get togethers either, but they’re also not in the “difficult to contact” crowd.
I think people are mistaking the shift away from Facebook as a fad. I think they’re going to have to accept that they’re going to need to start coming up with other mass invitation methods sooner rather than later.
Add another who deleted FB many years ago. I took a social media class several years ago and was the only student who did not have an FB account. Interestingly enough, the other students who did have an account only used it to keep in touch with parents/relatives. Almost all of them had moved on to exclusively use Twitter or Instagram, it was a fairly even split if I remember correctly.
I despise Facebook, it is essentially the YouTube trending page where it is full of really aweful Buzzfeed like content.
I wish I could totally delete it however they have the critical user number where most the world is on it. I have everything set to private and never post I exclusively use the 'Messenger' app as it has a good feature set and lots of my friends are on it.
I just hope some future alternative can grow in numbers to create some competition for the messenger app.
A Facebook account is what you make of it. Privacy issues aside, I find it useful for very limited informational needs, like contacting someone if that's their main way to communicate. Otherwise, I avoid it. I'm not proud of that fact, like some my age who brag about not having this or that, and I don't despise it. It's just not useful to me.
I feel for those who've made it a lifestyle choice, because research indicates they're being ruthlessly gamed, but then I have to have my coffee every day. The fact is we all make lifestyle choices, resigning ourselves to put up with some inconvenience for what we see as benefits. In its day, television was just as much of a social obligation, just less pervasive.