I'm with you that making it a redesign only feature is shitty, but what's wrong with the polls being weighted? It seems to me that polls need some kind of filter to get the opinions of subreddit...
I'm with you that making it a redesign only feature is shitty, but what's wrong with the polls being weighted? It seems to me that polls need some kind of filter to get the opinions of subreddit regulars while keeping out external brigading. It reminds me of the trust mechanic and weighted votes @Deimos has planned for Tildes. And if you don't like the weighted votes they also show raw votes.
No surprise there, really. I sent reddit's admins the basic sketch of Tildes' social structure ideas a little over three years ago. I know their admin team read it and discussed it in meetings...
Exemplary
It reminds me of the trust mechanic and weighted votes @Deimos has planned for Tildes.
No surprise there, really. I sent reddit's admins the basic sketch of Tildes' social structure ideas a little over three years ago. I know their admin team read it and discussed it in meetings because I chatted about it with several of them in mod irc. I'd assumed they forgot - looks like someone else was paying attention. I also sent this on to Voat but all Atko did with it is restrict access to downvoting for a little while.
Frankly, I'd given up hope of anyone ever taking any of this stuff seriously until Deimos came along. We're way beyond those old early drafts here on Tildes already. Deimos gets it, and I think most of the people here who have been patient reading my long-winded explanations get it too. Reddit clearly doesn't, yet... but at least it's a long-overdue step forward for them.
I'm glad to see reddit doing anything to improve their social systems. This particular change seems a bit... odd... as if they kinda missed the point of the proposed systems and are turning it more into a game for use in polling. I suppose that'll let them try it out 'safely.' I don't think they got it through their heads yet how all of these systems tie together to solve the eternal september problem.
It'll be interesting seeing how the users there react to these changes, and what behaviors emerge. I'll be keeping an eye on that. It might tell us how better to implement some features here.
Because it turns karmawhoring from a meaningless pastime into something that has the potential to influence communities. And we all know the easiest way to earn karma is by scattershotting a whole...
Because it turns karmawhoring from a meaningless pastime into something that has the potential to influence communities. And we all know the easiest way to earn karma is by scattershotting a whole lot of low-quality fluff. Among other unsavory methods.
So it's a self reinforcing spiral of encouraging low-quality noise, and rewarding those people who game the system with even more of a voice.
But for Reddit Inc., and maybe the moderators of participating subreddits, they get to say "look at our skyrocketing user engagement!", so I guess the wrongness of the feature depends on who you're asking.
if nothing else i think we can all appreciate that option, but i am curious which option people would/will turn to and if they roll it out further, whether or not it'd vary by community. could...
if nothing else i think we can all appreciate that option, but i am curious which option people would/will turn to and if they roll it out further, whether or not it'd vary by community. could definitely see conflict arising from the splits that would no doubt ensue, especially if mods are the ones who impose which option of the two they think is "superior"
They are digging quite the hole... This plus reddit premium plus the redesign means there needs to be a replacement or alternative ASAP! While I like Tildes, it is not a replacement for reddit....
They are digging quite the hole... This plus reddit premium plus the redesign means there needs to be a replacement or alternative ASAP! While I like Tildes, it is not a replacement for reddit.
All of these things smell of IPO. I expect reddit to only go downhill from here.
The idea of having weighted voting within the reddit platform is appealing and exciting to me. Weighting by activity could have drawbacks but it could potentially be the least bad of several...
The idea of having weighted voting within the reddit platform is appealing and exciting to me. Weighting by activity could have drawbacks but it could potentially be the least bad of several options.
In fact, the idea of weighted 'trust' within Tildes, along with attenuation of trust over time were some of the things I was most excited to see in action over here. Reddit's primary voting structure - which has been copied everywhere from hackernews to the ubiquitous Discus platform - has proven to be one of its greatest weaknesses. Competing vote economy systems are something to encourage, not complain about IMO.
i don't think this is necessarily a "bad" idea because (a) this is a really hard feature to fuck up fundamentally, and (b) it's a nifty addition for some subreddits and probably more convenient...
i don't think this is necessarily a "bad" idea because (a) this is a really hard feature to fuck up fundamentally, and (b) it's a nifty addition for some subreddits and probably more convenient than a strawpoll, but does anybody else think the weighting aspect here is at best naive and at worst an effectively useless feature? i can see why they'd do it (because in a very community driven subreddit that option might be very useful in practice) but the amount of gamesmanship that their weighting system here opens up just strikes me as rendering it effectively useless unless everybody's acting in good faith, which is obviously not going to happen because it's reddit.
If they want money, they could implement quadratic voting. I mean, people would still shit on them, but at least we would test a genuinely interesting concept.
If they want money, they could implement quadratic voting. I mean, people would still shit on them, but at least we would test a genuinely interesting concept.
/r/metal used simplified quadratic voting in their best of the year album threads. It worked very, very well there. I think it's a bit heady for most people, but there are ways to implement it...
/r/metal used simplified quadratic voting in their best of the year album threads. It worked very, very well there. I think it's a bit heady for most people, but there are ways to implement it that could simplify things considerably (such as just giving people tokens to spend, a finite number). There's also condorcet voting which is essentially distilled democracy without the bullshit - and it can't be gamed, gerrymandered, or otherwise subverted.
I want them all. Polls have traditionally been such shit on websites - how the hell are we supposed to run things in a democratic fashion if you can't get reliable feedback from the community members? It's maddening. I've tried to moderate this way on reddit but it's a shitshow, so few people participate.
The real question, though... how does one implement Parliamentary Procedure in an online forum? Since it's not real-time it'll obviously be quite different, but the goal should be the same - give a voice to all issues and gather everyone's feedback, so we can make educated decisions as a group where all views are heard and respected. I'm sure there's a way to evolve this concept into something useful in an online forum.
Those should be fun projects for Tildes someday... when it's out of beta. :P
this is largely not related to your comment's point but it stuck in my mind reading it for some reason: it'd be interesting to see a future, larger tildes community attempt something like a...
this is largely not related to your comment's point but it stuck in my mind reading it for some reason: it'd be interesting to see a future, larger tildes community attempt something like a democracy simulator not unlike like reddit's model congress, given the differences in priorities and community goals.
honestly i'd genuinely love to see reddit try that out with the points system aspect rather than just have people with more points be weighted heavier. like you said people would still shit on...
honestly i'd genuinely love to see reddit try that out with the points system aspect rather than just have people with more points be weighted heavier. like you said people would still shit on them, but it'd be an insightful test to say the least with reddit's size. it'd also definitely be an improvement on this in my judgement since there'd be some gain and cost attached to every vote and every point and that in kind would presumably make gaming the system at least a bit harder
I'm with you that making it a redesign only feature is shitty, but what's wrong with the polls being weighted? It seems to me that polls need some kind of filter to get the opinions of subreddit regulars while keeping out external brigading. It reminds me of the trust mechanic and weighted votes @Deimos has planned for Tildes. And if you don't like the weighted votes they also show raw votes.
No surprise there, really. I sent reddit's admins the basic sketch of Tildes' social structure ideas a little over three years ago. I know their admin team read it and discussed it in meetings because I chatted about it with several of them in mod irc. I'd assumed they forgot - looks like someone else was paying attention. I also sent this on to Voat but all Atko did with it is restrict access to downvoting for a little while.
Frankly, I'd given up hope of anyone ever taking any of this stuff seriously until Deimos came along. We're way beyond those old early drafts here on Tildes already. Deimos gets it, and I think most of the people here who have been patient reading my long-winded explanations get it too. Reddit clearly doesn't, yet... but at least it's a long-overdue step forward for them.
I'm glad to see reddit doing anything to improve their social systems. This particular change seems a bit... odd... as if they kinda missed the point of the proposed systems and are turning it more into a game for use in polling. I suppose that'll let them try it out 'safely.' I don't think they got it through their heads yet how all of these systems tie together to solve the eternal september problem.
It'll be interesting seeing how the users there react to these changes, and what behaviors emerge. I'll be keeping an eye on that. It might tell us how better to implement some features here.
Because it turns karmawhoring from a meaningless pastime into something that has the potential to influence communities. And we all know the easiest way to earn karma is by scattershotting a whole lot of low-quality fluff. Among other unsavory methods.
So it's a self reinforcing spiral of encouraging low-quality noise, and rewarding those people who game the system with even more of a voice.
But for Reddit Inc., and maybe the moderators of participating subreddits, they get to say "look at our skyrocketing user engagement!", so I guess the wrongness of the feature depends on who you're asking.
if nothing else i think we can all appreciate that option, but i am curious which option people would/will turn to and if they roll it out further, whether or not it'd vary by community. could definitely see conflict arising from the splits that would no doubt ensue, especially if mods are the ones who impose which option of the two they think is "superior"
They are digging quite the hole... This plus reddit premium plus the redesign means there needs to be a replacement or alternative ASAP! While I like Tildes, it is not a replacement for reddit.
All of these things smell of IPO. I expect reddit to only go downhill from here.
The idea of having weighted voting within the reddit platform is appealing and exciting to me. Weighting by activity could have drawbacks but it could potentially be the least bad of several options.
In fact, the idea of weighted 'trust' within Tildes, along with attenuation of trust over time were some of the things I was most excited to see in action over here. Reddit's primary voting structure - which has been copied everywhere from hackernews to the ubiquitous Discus platform - has proven to be one of its greatest weaknesses. Competing vote economy systems are something to encourage, not complain about IMO.
i don't think this is necessarily a "bad" idea because (a) this is a really hard feature to fuck up fundamentally, and (b) it's a nifty addition for some subreddits and probably more convenient than a strawpoll, but does anybody else think the weighting aspect here is at best naive and at worst an effectively useless feature? i can see why they'd do it (because in a very community driven subreddit that option might be very useful in practice) but the amount of gamesmanship that their weighting system here opens up just strikes me as rendering it effectively useless unless everybody's acting in good faith, which is obviously not going to happen because it's reddit.
Completely useless. Hopefully we can turn it off when this reaches wide release.
If they want money, they could implement quadratic voting. I mean, people would still shit on them, but at least we would test a genuinely interesting concept.
/r/metal used simplified quadratic voting in their best of the year album threads. It worked very, very well there. I think it's a bit heady for most people, but there are ways to implement it that could simplify things considerably (such as just giving people tokens to spend, a finite number). There's also condorcet voting which is essentially distilled democracy without the bullshit - and it can't be gamed, gerrymandered, or otherwise subverted.
I want them all. Polls have traditionally been such shit on websites - how the hell are we supposed to run things in a democratic fashion if you can't get reliable feedback from the community members? It's maddening. I've tried to moderate this way on reddit but it's a shitshow, so few people participate.
The real question, though... how does one implement Parliamentary Procedure in an online forum? Since it's not real-time it'll obviously be quite different, but the goal should be the same - give a voice to all issues and gather everyone's feedback, so we can make educated decisions as a group where all views are heard and respected. I'm sure there's a way to evolve this concept into something useful in an online forum.
Those should be fun projects for Tildes someday... when it's out of beta. :P
this is largely not related to your comment's point but it stuck in my mind reading it for some reason: it'd be interesting to see a future, larger tildes community attempt something like a democracy simulator not unlike like reddit's model congress, given the differences in priorities and community goals.
honestly i'd genuinely love to see reddit try that out with the points system aspect rather than just have people with more points be weighted heavier. like you said people would still shit on them, but it'd be an insightful test to say the least with reddit's size. it'd also definitely be an improvement on this in my judgement since there'd be some gain and cost attached to every vote and every point and that in kind would presumably make gaming the system at least a bit harder