Optimo's recent activity
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Comment on A "low-risk" AMA thread for everyone in ~talk
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Comment on What board games have you played this week (to 26th June)? in ~games.tabletop
Optimo LinkThe pandemic got me very into solo boardgaming, to the point solo is probably how I play 90% of my board games these days. On that note, I've been playing: Rove: Very cute and tight little...The pandemic got me very into solo boardgaming, to the point solo is probably how I play 90% of my board games these days. On that note, I've been playing:
Rove: Very cute and tight little tile-pattern-matching game. I always feel like I win by the skin of my teeth.
Skytear Horde: Tower defense-ish card battler. Scratches that Magic itch with the gameplay, but with a solo mode. I backed the Monoliths expansion recently - looking forward to that coming in.
Red Rising: This one I got my wife to play with me! This one for some reason doesn't get a lot of love online, but I love it for what it is - a colorful set collection game that's all about optimizing your hand and reacting to an evolving game state. Plus I enjoyed the books it's based on too.
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Comment on Pixel Fold reviews (and possible concerns about its durability) in ~tech
Optimo Link ParentYes, same, love my Z Fold 3. I work remote and find it excellent for letting me be away from my desk but still able to review slide decks or spreadsheets or whatever other productivity stuff - and...Yes, same, love my Z Fold 3. I work remote and find it excellent for letting me be away from my desk but still able to review slide decks or spreadsheets or whatever other productivity stuff - and it's great for gaming too.
I've replaced the inner screen protector fairly easily due to the other one starting to lift along the crease, and have had zero issues with the new one. Looks like the specs for the Z Fold 5 are indicating a teardrop folding design so the crease should be even less of an issue with that one.
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Comment on A "low-risk" AMA thread for everyone in ~talk
Optimo Link ParentOh boy that's a story and a half, haha. This was a Canadian denomination called "AGC" - basically a Fellowship Baptist variant. So I was a "junior" elder (which is a very strange term, looking at...Oh boy that's a story and a half, haha. This was a Canadian denomination called "AGC" - basically a Fellowship Baptist variant. So I was a "junior" elder (which is a very strange term, looking at it now), which meant I couldn't just come out and make an accusation. There's also a Bible verse that's often used to insulate church leadership from accusations - "don't entertain an accusation against an elder unless you've got two or three witnesses" (1 Tim 5:19). I probably don't need to explain how that leads to allll kinds of abuse. So my first step was to bring it to the "elder in charge of staffing". I showed up with a massive stack of printed documents proving my case. After reviewing it, he thanked me for letting him know, and he gave me one piece of advice: "Don't tell the other elders it was you who uncovered this, or they will eat you alive." Being relatively young and inexperienced with this sort of thing, that spooked me enough to keep my mouth shut.
So, a meeting was held without the pastor present, where the evidence was brought forward. I was there and stayed quiet. Very, very quickly, the conversation turned from "Is this wrong?" to "this is fine, this isn't a university, I still felt God in these sermons" to "who discovered this" to "this coward needs to be dragged out in front of the church to publicly confess and apologize for attacking the pastor".
I was terrified - the church was my entire community, and I felt very strongly that the plagiarism was wrong. I should probably add that the Sunday sermon was literally the pastor's only job - no hospitality, visitations, prayer meetings, anything - and he was making money approaching six figures. I felt that this was theft from the congregation that was paying him to do a job he wasn't doing, and lying to them on top of it. I couldn't in good conscience apologize, but I knew they would make me or remove me. I knew these men had the power to turn my community against me. So I stayed quiet and just tried to use the Bible to argue why it was wrong - pastors should be "above reproach", are "held to a higher standard", etc.
There were a few elders who agreed with me - I'd say maybe 25% of them - though one by one they resigned and left the church. After about a month of deliberations, I was the lone holdout. I had written a paper on 1 Timothy outlining exactly why I felt it was a problem and why I couldn't back down. They called in two of the top men in the entire denomination to "deal with me". I presented my case and they basically threw it in the trash. I said I wasn't comfortable with the congregation not being told about this. They said that the pastor did nothing wrong but it was imperative that the congregation not be told anything. I said that didn't feel right. They said (and this is as direct a quote as I can remember): "Either you leave here in agreement with us, or you don't leave."
I remember quite literally shaking at this point. I had a cold sweat happening and my breath was shallow. The cognitive dissonance was massive - these men were essentially acting as God's arbiters here, and I felt strongly that they were wrong. Did that mean I thought God was wrong? At the time, I didn't know, but that's what it felt like they were saying I was saying. In those environments soooo much weight is put on "spiritual authority" that you've essentially subjugated your own mind to them and it feels nearly impossible to dissent.
So I stalled until the top men had to go back to Toronto. Once they left I told the elders there that I was the one who discovered the plagiarism. They said they knew - which to me added to the feeling of being manipulated this entire time. I essentially had to agree to keep my mouth shut about this situation where supposedly nothing wrong occurred, or resign. I took the latter.
On my way out they stood between me and the door and forced me to hug them, like everything was fine. It felt incredibly gross.
This is not a unique story, or even necessarily uncommon - I do a podcast about stories like these in Canada. This is how places like this operate and stay cohesive. They would never say I was "excommunicated" - they would say I left of my own free will, and that I was a "problem". I believe the words they used after I left to describe my exit was a "blessed subtraction". Nobody gets "kicked out" - there's simply increasing pressure applied to make them more and more uncomfortable until they have no choice but to leave. Friends are told that you're having "challenges". People are told that you're "struggling spiritually". "Wrestling with God". You're slowly removed from things you enjoy, like helping out with the youth group or playing music. You're socially quarantined and told it's for the safety of others until you can make sure you won't cause others to "stumble". It's weaponized community for the sake of conformity.
Anyway I could go on and on about how that all mechanically works, why it happens, and the harm it causes, but basically, that's what happened to me. I'm far enough out from it that I can view it with a level of detachment, but I'm still pretty angry about it now, and angry at the many, many communities that do similar things to people that dare to step outside the lines.
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Comment on A "low-risk" AMA thread for everyone in ~talk
Optimo LinkThis is such a great topic idea. I'll throw my hat in here in case there's anything interesting to people: I'm a Technical Product Manager at a Canadian nonprofit aimed at getting people better...This is such a great topic idea. I'll throw my hat in here in case there's anything interesting to people:
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I'm a Technical Product Manager at a Canadian nonprofit aimed at getting people better access to health care. My particular passion area is mental health care.
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I grew up in an environment similar to a lite version of Shiny Happy People - no dresses or long curly hair for women or anything... but pretty much everything else.
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I was homeschooled and finished high school coursework by the time I was 13, and wrote the SAT (which isn't common in Canada, I did it as a sort of GED equivalent to get into post-secondary stuff).
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I got 95% of the way into a BSc but dropped out at the finish line because I majored in Biology and the cognitive dissonance of learning about evolution was too much for my very religious 15-year old brain to take.
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Went on to get a diploma in media studies and a BSc in Computer Science (much safer for my religious brain) by the time I was 20.
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Got into leadership within fundamentalist communities, was an "elder", life was grand in the bubble, until I discovered that every sermon the lead pastor did for years had been completely 100% plagiarized and claimed as his own work - very long story short I was excommunicated after bringing that up and we lost almost our entire community.
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Did a lot of soul searching and study after that and ended up leaving the faith entirely and lost whoever was left.
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That was eight years ago - still picking up the pieces but life definitely feels much better on the outside than in!
AMA!
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Comment on How do you find community after leaving a religion? in ~life
Optimo Link ParentThis is excellent - thanks so much for your perspective. I think you're on to something about that closeness being a potentially negative quality of those communities, even though it feels good...This is excellent - thanks so much for your perspective. I think you're on to something about that closeness being a potentially negative quality of those communities, even though it feels good when you're in it. The lack of boundaries in those communities is definitely something I see as unhealthy now, on the other side - being forced to confess your innermost thoughts to "accountability partners", talking about your "sins" in a private prayer circle so the shame of exposure prevents you from doing it again, that sort of stuff.
I really like what you're saying about focusing on the interest first, and letting relationships form around that with healthy boundaries. That sounds like a much better recipe for community.
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Comment on How do you find community after leaving a religion? in ~life
Optimo Link ParentThanks so much for your response, and I'm so sorry for what you've been through. So much of what you said is so relatable, though I can only imagine the additional pain of having a divorce layered...Thanks so much for your response, and I'm so sorry for what you've been through. So much of what you said is so relatable, though I can only imagine the additional pain of having a divorce layered on top of it.
There is a Unitarian church in town here that I've considered checking out - I think part of what has me a bit wary of anything "churchy" right now is the power dynamics of it all, and the weird authority structures that seem to come as a package deal with many churches - but maybe it's different without the weight of a deity behind the leadership. Maybe I'll give it a shot.
But thanks again for sharing. Even if it's true that there's nothing else like that kind of community out there, your story helps because it makes me feel less alone. So thank you! And I'll let you know if I ever hit on something that works!
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Comment on How do you find community after leaving a religion? in ~life
Optimo Link ParentThis is really helpful, thank you so much! I've definitely been able to connect with some amazing people online that are also having this same struggle (I do a little podcast that has helped us...This is really helpful, thank you so much! I've definitely been able to connect with some amazing people online that are also having this same struggle (I do a little podcast that has helped us make those connections), but we're not really geographically close so it's not quite the same. I think I'm partially still trying to come to terms with the idea that that kind of "church-style" community isn't all that common - and that's maybe not a terrible thing, as there's lots of abuses that are enabled by that style of community as well.
I love your Black Mass idea, that would be right up my alley. That sounds so fun!
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Comment on How do you find community after leaving a religion? in ~life
Optimo Link ParentFor sure! I'm in a semi-large city in Ontario (not Toronto). Video games, board games, movies, TV, books, stuff like that. That's how we've made the few friends we have. I guess my question is...For sure! I'm in a semi-large city in Ontario (not Toronto). Video games, board games, movies, TV, books, stuff like that. That's how we've made the few friends we have.
I guess my question is more along the lines of cultivating "community", not just "making friends" - like yeah, we've got some friends we have over for dinner/drinks/games once in a while, but it feels like we're missing that "part of something bigger than us, we're all in this together, we've all got each other's back" thing. It's hard to explain. Maybe it's just withdrawal symptoms from leaving that stuff behind... I don't know.
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How do you find community after leaving a religion?
Hi Tildes! Long time lurker here who recently got an account. I love the long-form thoughtful discussion here and thought this might generate some interesting replies. I and my partner left a...
Hi Tildes! Long time lurker here who recently got an account. I love the long-form thoughtful discussion here and thought this might generate some interesting replies.
I and my partner left a high-control religious community (fundamentalist evangelicalism, think a Canadian version of the Shiny Happy People doc) eight years ago, and the experience was like a bomb going off in our life that we still find ourselves recovering from in many ways.
Growing up in that environment led to us having an extremely strong, and very possibly distorted, sense of what community is. People that treat you like family; bringing meals when you're sick, throwing you wedding showers, helping with home repairs, being shoulders to cry on... the works. Of course, as we later found out, this community could very easily be turned against you by certain powerful members of it, and it turned out there were many many strings attached that only became visible once we bumped up against them. When we left Christianity our entire community essentially disowned and ghosted us and we were left adrift.
It's now been eight years and we've managed to develop some friendships with folks that we hang out with once in a while, but nothing that even approaches the level of closeness and "family" that we felt in the church.
But maybe that's not normal or a realistic expectation? The funny thing about being so immersed in a subculture like that your entire life is that when you're suddenly on the outside of it, you realize you don't really have any idea what normal is. I still feel like I don't a lot of the time.
So: What insight can you share? Has anyone had a similar experience? What do your social communities look like out here in the real world? How do you find them?
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I'd say I'm an agnostic now. I don't really know what's out there and I'm pretty sure I can't know (though I would hazard some guesses).
I didn't actually leave the faith because of what happened - it was more like being forced out of the church gave me the space to really study why I believed what I believed, and I had already lost pretty much everything so the social cost of looking into these things and asking questions was no longer there. After studying up on a bunch of things I realized I didn't have really solid reasons to be as confident as I was in my beliefs, and things started crumbling from there into a vague "I dunno" over the course of a few years, haha.