catahoula_leopard's recent activity

  1. Comment on I gave up meat and gained so much more | A tale of one person's life, culture, and growing up in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    I recently gave up 100% veganism after over a decade of being vegan. My thoughts on the ethics of eating/farming animals haven't even changed, I just simply couldn't stand the limited diet any...

    The all or nothing approach is alienating. I have no idea what (specifically) vegans eat everyday and feel satisfied with.

    I recently gave up 100% veganism after over a decade of being vegan. My thoughts on the ethics of eating/farming animals haven't even changed, I just simply couldn't stand the limited diet any longer. I still think it's good to eat a lot of vegan food, I just started questioning why veganism is the only cause that is seen as a completely black and white thing.

    I always thought my fellow vegans were full of shit when they would claim that there are vegan cheeses that are anywhere near as delicious as real cheese, but after learning how to cook things like chicken and eggs for just a few months, my mind is completely blown thinking about all the flavors and different cuisines I've missed out on for my entire life. (I was raised in the Midwest by someone who didn't know how to cook, then went vegan when I was 19, so this is basically my first time eating a quality diet of all types of foods.)

    The thing is, there are lots of tasty, healthy vegan meals! I'm an excellent cook, and when I make vegan food for omnivores they always enjoy it. My problem is, I can only think of so many different ways to eat beans, mock duck, and beyond beef. No matter how good a handful of vegan dishes are, after years of eating them, it gets so old. I learned everything there was to learn about cooking beans and vegetables, and after that, all I started thinking about was all the different cuisines and dishes that were off limits for me.

    And of those protein options I mentioned, beans are the only one that is affordable. Tofu can be cheap, but I only enjoy tofu when I can buy high quality locally made tofu, in which case it starts to cost just as much as meat does. Seitan is rubbery and bland, whether store bought or homemade (mock duck is good seitan, not sure how they manage that, but it's still a bit rubbery.) Vegan chicken is expensive, flavorless, and is really only good in as a fried chicken nugget.

    I've eaten at vegan restaurants. A couple were wonderful, but most left me still feeling hungry.

    I gave up on vegan restaurants during my time being vegan. Almost all vegan restaurants are way too focused on "health foods," and they would rarely add enough fat, flavor, or MSG to make up for all of it that's missing when you don't have meat. The vegan places that aren't focused on health food are just bland generic burger places. There is one good vegan burger place in my city that makes a good, greasy, flavorful burger and that's about it. My home cooked vegan food is better than restaurants, but damn, can I just enjoy a spontaneous dinner out without picking the perfect restaurant that can make decent vegan food? And even then I was limited to a couple of options on their menu. It was exhausting.

    Their mention of everything complimenting meat feels like a clue to how they actually eat

    I never understood this argument, even when I was vegan. Of all vegan protein options, beyond beef has the best flavor and texture by far. But it cost me $2.50 per serving, you still have to season it and use it in a good dish with lots of flavors, and even with all that it's not even 10% as delicious as a simple chicken thigh seasoned with just salt and pepper.

    Vegetables and other vegan foods have great flavors and textures, yes, but they taste every bit as good when they're complimented by flavorful chicken or pork instead of bland seitan or beans.

    Ironically, veganism gave me my deep love of cooking, which in turn ultimately led me to give up on veganism. I had to learn so much about flavors and cooking techniques in order to make good vegan food to eat for ten years. Cooking became my main hobby and one of my strongest talents. And, well, then I got tired of being restricted from 99% of recipes, ingredients, and techniques available to other people. I cannot even begin to explain how much less effort and thought I have to put into weeknight dinners now that I've added even just a few animal products back into my diet. And the food is better. I'm sorry, it just is.

    I admire vegans who are able to stick with it, and I think with a lot of work you can make it relatively healthy and tasty, but I can't do it anymore. I love food, flavors, and different cuisines too much.

    21 votes

  2. Comment on What are your values? in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    You value openness / openness to experiences. :) I also value it, but I am particularly prone to accidentally accepting some of my negative qualities as being permanent, which, as you've...

    You value openness / openness to experiences. :)

    I also value it, but I am particularly prone to accidentally accepting some of my negative qualities as being permanent, which, as you've mentioned, is terrible for personal development.

    Currently I am trying to get rid of the perception that I am a person who hates exercise, something I have believed since being a very unpopular, sad child in middle school gym class. Surely, that version of myself should no longer be relevant, but if I don't have openness to the idea that I can be a healthy, active person, I'm mentally stuck back there in gym class. Realizing things like this is often essential to personal development.

    2 votes

  3. Comment on What are your values? in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    I'm currently dating someone in a non-monogamous context, and he anticipates wanting a monogamous relationship of his own within the next 3+ years, which would render the current version of our...

    Romans tended to take the view "enjoy it while you have it, as long as you don't grow attached."

    I'm currently dating someone in a non-monogamous context, and he anticipates wanting a monogamous relationship of his own within the next 3+ years, which would render the current version of our relationship impossible, so this certainly resonates with me.

    I guess we're playing with fire when it comes to the part about getting attached. We're incredibly fond of each other. But I was happy before I had him in this context, and I'll be happy afterwards too. Generally I'm non-monogamous because I don't feel entitled to either of my partners, now or in the future, and I know I could lose them at any time. And I'm okay with that.

    Point being, you're such a natural philosopher that you leapfrogged 300 years of philosophical development!

    Ha, you flatter me. I was surprised when I made the connection, because I've never studied or read about philosophy in any formal way. But now that think of it, my dad was always challenging me with philosophical questions from a very early age, and he never went to college or read much either. He didn't have any time for those things, working overtime as a mechanic and a janitor. His brain just naturally worked like that.

    As a hilarious side note, one of the philosophical questions my dad always grilled my sister and I with (starting at the absurd age of 6 years old): "If we were climbing a mountain and fell off the side of it, and you were holding onto the cliff with one hand, with me hanging below you holding your other hand, would you drop me so you could save your own life?"

    Looking back, this is such a ridiculous and inappropriately intense question to ask a young child, but ultimately it did no damage and I guess it primed me to consider the deeper questions in life. Every time, my sister and I would whine and protest and say we would rather die than let go of his hand in such a predicament. "Stop asking that question, we love you Daddy! We would never drop you!"

    He would ask us this question repeatedly over the years, insisting each time that we must let go of his hand if this were to ever happen, until finally we were old enough to agree that, yes, it would be logical to release him into the abyss below in order to save ourselves. Eventually I started throwing it back at him, asking if he would drop me, should I be the one hanging at the bottom. He says he could never drop me because he would rather die along with me than to lose me like that. Come on, Dad, consistency!

    I'm cracking up thinking about this whole thing now. My dad is such a weird guy.

    3 votes

  4. Comment on Owning a dog is a complete misery at the moment in ~life.pets

    catahoula_leopard
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    As someone who adopted an extremely people-reactive and dog-reactive Catahoula Leopard Dog: Taking the advice that is summarized in this post changed my life and saved my dog's life. The...

    As someone who adopted an extremely people-reactive and dog-reactive Catahoula Leopard Dog: Taking the advice that is summarized in this post changed my life and saved my dog's life. The importance of this (clearly expert) advice cannot be overstated.

    The only thing I would add is to recommend finding a support group for owners of reactive dogs. (There are groups on reddit, and local groups on Facebook, probably for any major city in the US. There are likely other options that I don't know about—sadly this is a big problem, likely more common than people think, even though dealing with it feels exceptionally isolating.) The process of treating the behavioral problems of a reactive dog can be incredibly mentally and emotionally draining. Spending months or even years wondering if you will need to abandon or euthanize your dog in order to move on with your life is very painful to experience. Sometimes you do need to find a better home for them, if it's even possible, and that is even more painful to experience, from what I have read about other people's situations. Having people you can relate to and talk to about all of this is impactful. It may be especially impactful for you, OP, as clearly you are experiencing emotional turmoil over this. I certainly did.

    My life has been fundamentally changed by my dog, it has taken years of hard work, money, and effort to teach her how to exist safely and happily, and we still cannot live an entirely normal lifestyle (one example is that we will never be able to have her walking around the house when guests are over.) But giving her a happy life is also one of the most rewarding and satisfying feats I have ever accomplished. People let her down, she needed me, and I stepped up to the task. So did she. She has been forced to live in unnatural and far less than ideal circumstances for her breed, but she is a good dog, and we are lucky to have each other.

    14 votes

  5. Comment on What are your values? in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    (edited )
    Link
    As someone who identifies more as a hedonist and a nihilist than anything else, this has always been a tough question for me. Ultimately, pleasure is the only thing that seems to matter to me in...

    Deep down, what matters to me?

    As someone who identifies more as a hedonist and a nihilist than anything else, this has always been a tough question for me. Ultimately, pleasure is the only thing that seems to matter to me in the midst of the entropy of human existence.

    I believe it's how ADHD manifests in my psyche, and my entire life feels like a quest to harness it, because seeking pleasure above all else can easily lead to a vapid, dulled existence. Over time I have learned to use my intrinsic hedonistic motivations to push me towards healthy and fulfilling behaviors whenever possible.

    Eating gives pleasure, so I cook amazing, healthy food all the time for myself and my loved ones. Moving around gives pleasure, and so does nature, so I walk around forests and parks whenever I can. Drugs give pleasure, so I microdose many of them, largely avoid any that make me feel worse in the morning, and use them to reveal and navigate uncharted levels of vulnerability with my loved ones. Music gives pleasure, so I sing and dance and go to concerts a lot. Sex gives pleasure, so I have enough that it seems to qualify as exercise, which gives more pleasure! It's also incredibly vulnerable, and I believe human intimacy is the greatest pleasure available.

    Pleasure matters to me, and people matter to me.

    What relationships do I want to build?

    I want closer relationships with friends than most people seem to want. I want to own property with my friends. I want to live with them and make them coffee and eat breakfast together every day. I want to die with them closely by my side. My friends are my family.

    I am most fulfilled, and seem to be the most healthy, happy, and energetic, when I have more than one romantic relationship. Relationships on easy mode are not challenging enough for me. I enjoy being loved and loving someone like that too much to limit it to one person. I'm a better partner in one relationship when I have two.

    What kinds of situations make me feel the most alive?

    Supporting someone through a difficult or stressful life event. When someone trusts me enough to tell me some of their most painful thoughts or feelings. When a movie makes me cry. Getting advice from older people who live happy, healthy lives, and feeling more hopeful about my future as a result. When someone notices how much effort I've put into my mental health, and tells me it's working. Planning events where my friends have a lot of fun, especially if they make friends with my other friends, and especially if anyone was lonely and wanted more friends before they met me. Waking up at music festivals on Sunday morning and blasting gospel music so people wake the hell up and pack up their tents. Singing at the top of my lungs while I'm cooking, songs that make me feel happy, or sad, or hopeful. Taking acid and staying up until 7am with my closest people, all of us laughing for so long and so hard that our abs are sore the next day. Having sex on mushrooms. Having sex on acid, ketamine, or MDMA. Having quiet sex on Monday nights. Feeling my 6ft tall partner's hands around my throat and knowing I'm completely safe. Being completely vulnerable, emotionally exposed, yet somehow feeling more relaxed and peaceful than ever.

    It certainly appears that intensity, trust, novelty, introspection, growth, and vulnerability make me feel alive.

    If you woke up and all your material concerns were taken care of, what would you do?

    I am incredibly grateful to have been financially able to take the past 1.5 years or so away from my career, so while I haven't been able to do things like lavish vacations, I have had more of an opportunity to live out this fantasy than most people get. My primary concern right now is how much of it I can retain, now that I'm looking for a job again.

    I would spend every day cooking food for my loved ones, spending time with them, and doing everything I can to increase their quality of life, because they always pour back into me in return, and we all greatly benefit from it.

    I would spend more time outside. I would travel more. I would buy nice anchovies more often.

    EDIT: After writing this comment, I was wondering if my statement about simultaneously being a hedonist and a nihilist was contradictory. Looking it up sent me down a rabbit hole of the various ways the two philosophies intersect, and eventually I found that my choices and behaviors are apparently rooted in Epicureanism, a type of hedonistic egoism. Everything from how I view healthy vs. unhealthy pleasure, how I value friendships, and even how I'm anti-natalist despite having a life that I'm scared to lose because it is overflowing with joy.
    When I said "I believe human intimacy is the greatest pleasure available," apparently I was just agreeing with Epicurus.

    So, that's interesting. My entire life and all my major choices are based on a philosophy that I didn't know existed up until this moment. And apparently I have some reading to do, because now I'm not sure Epicurus would recommend buying nicer anchovies more often.

    4 votes

  6. Comment on What are your values? in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    I was also socially stunted as a child and young adult, due to being homeschooled in an emotionally and religiously abusive family, and I relate so much to what you've said about valuing...

    I was socially stunted in my youth as a child of an abusive parent and a constant target of bullying. We all have a certain persona we embody when it comes to mine it ended up being less of a naturally grown one had to be intentionally built up. While everything is natural to me now, it wasn’t always that way and the journey to get here is a story of me trying to learn how to understand people and to communicate with people the ways they need me to.

    I was also socially stunted as a child and young adult, due to being homeschooled in an emotionally and religiously abusive family, and I relate so much to what you've said about valuing relationships and always wanting to understand people better.

    My early life felt extremely lonely. I had to work so hard to learn how to even make friends or have relationships at all, for a long time I thought I would never understand how to have healthy relationships, and now I consider relationship building as a passion of mine. My life is overflowing with support, love, and companionship. Every time I think my social needs are fulfilled, I meet someone else who surprises me by impacting my life significantly. I love people.

    I love putting time and energy into establishing trust and vulnerability with friends and partners, helping people become the best version of themselves, and allowing them to help me and inspire me in similar ways. I definitely put more energy into friendships and relationships than I do in any other aspect of life, partially because it feels effortless to me now (and it's fun,) but also because it has proven to be deeply rewarding to my personal growth and mental health.

    4 votes

  7. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    Both. :) For me, mushrooms are never off-topic, haha. (Functionally, people can label our comments as off-topic though!) He's been growing psychedelic mushrooms for many years, and recently...

    Completely off-topic, but do you guys talk about food mushrooms or drug mushrooms?

    Both. :) For me, mushrooms are never off-topic, haha. (Functionally, people can label our comments as off-topic though!)

    He's been growing psychedelic mushrooms for many years, and recently started getting into culinary mushrooms. I think right now he's growing "mystic purple healers" on the psychedelic side, and oysters on the culinary side. I've never grown them myself, but I enjoy foraging, eating, dosing, microdosing, and learning about them. Yeah, mushrooms are so great.

    How about you?

    2 votes

  8. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    Yeah, regardless of the outcome, I don't think I'll be able to provide much drama, haha. Even if it doesn't go well, it would probably be more of a quiet fizzling out than anything else, some sad...

    Tildes has too much technical discussion and too little relationship drama, so please do follow up. /s

    Yeah, regardless of the outcome, I don't think I'll be able to provide much drama, haha. Even if it doesn't go well, it would probably be more of a quiet fizzling out than anything else, some sad feelings or a break/distance in the friendship. That's how I felt before I had the conversation, but now that I know how it went, I feel even more confident about it.

    Thanks for the kind words. I love reading odd little stories about other people's lives, dramatic or otherwise, so I figured it could be interesting to share.

    9 votes

  9. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link
    Update I appreciate everyone who read my post and provided thought-provoking comments, interesting questions, and personal insights. Writing helps me understand myself better and identify what I...

    Update

    I appreciate everyone who read my post and provided thought-provoking comments, interesting questions, and personal insights. Writing helps me understand myself better and identify what I want from my life. With this topic, I knew my head was far up in the clouds, so reflecting on it through external perspective was incredibly helpful.

    I see the friend in question on Thursdays, and this week I knew exactly what wanted to say, so I decided to broach the subject with him. I told him I'm attracted to him, mentioned that I sensed he might be flirting with me a lot more than usual lately, which made me wonder if he had ever considered a relationship with me that would be generally more intimate than a friendship.

    He was genuinely very surprised that I'm feeling this way, and I was genuinely surprised at how surprised he was. We both laughed at each other's confused curiosity about what was behind the door I had just cracked open. He confirmed that he is attracted to me, and that he would have “made a move on me” if we had met when we were both single, but he never considered me an option romantically. Apparently the flirting was just for fun, or meant as silly jokes, and he didn't mean to hint at anything serious by it. But the reason he never considered me an option is because he's such a close friend (of me and my husband.) He wasn't offended that I proposed taking this risk, but he seemed very clear that it's not an idea he would've reached on his own. He said it sounds complex, and risky. I agreed.

    He was flattered and said he definitely sees it as a compliment. The poor guy’s hands were shaking for about 15 minutes. I acknowledged that this must be a lot to process, considering he apparently didn't expect it whatsoever, and assured him that whatever reaction he has will be received neutrally by me. I clarified that I had not been planning this for long—I had also written him off as "an option” long ago (for the same reason he wrote me off, as well as him having only monogamous relationships in the past.) I maintained that having him as a friend is incredibly important to me, and nothing needs to change. I just needed to express what was on my mind, and he can do with that as he wishes. His initial nerves gradually faded, and we covered some of the very basics of what I've been thinking about.

    At some point we got distracted and started talking about mushrooms, which is a common occurrence. The conversation about our relationship felt complete, or at least as complete as it could be until we both had more time to process it. We chatted about our lives for another hour or so. It felt normal. Before we left, I brought up the topic one more time to ask if he was okay (he was,) if he had anything else to say (he didn't,) and if I made him uncomfortable (we both laughed, because it was pretty obvious that the energy between us hadn't changed at all, and we spent the last hour interacting just like we normally do.) No, I didn't make him uncomfortable.

    I also told him that if he doesn't need to think more about this, and it's just not a realistic option whatsoever, we can definitely just close the conversation now and consider it a done deal—just friends.

    He laughed and said "That sounds drastic. Let's not."

    Later that night he sent me a message:

    I needed time to think about what you said.

    I know these things are true. I am attracted to you and I enjoy you as a person, our friendship is valuable, and we'll do whatever it takes to try and maintain it.

    Those are constants.

    What I don't know: I would need to know more about what kind of parameters a relationship between us would have, what parameters your marriage has, and how your husband feels. After I knew those things, I could get closer to knowing if there's something here worth trying.

    If there is something, I would need to take this very slowly. I don’t know what I'm doing and I would have to make sure I understand everything I'm feeling, which would all be new to me. It would have to happen really slowly and naturally over time.

    I responded by explaining much of what I had explained to all of you here. He, too, is now blessed with my curious ramblings about different types of intimacy, the nuance of human relationships, and my disinterest in coloring inside the lines when it comes to these things.

    I'll try to give him a few days or weeks before introducing anything more or asking about this topic. Probably weeks. He has plenty to process, and we're in the opposite of a rush.

    My husband asked if I was disappointed to receive what was essentially a very even-keeled response, or at least, a response that didn't confirm all of the assumptions I had been making, and didn't catapult me into a whirlwind romance. No, I'm not disappointed, and I certainly didn't expect all my assumptions to be confirmed—I'm a chronic daydreamer, it comes with the territory.

    In fact, if the answer to my burning question had been “Sounds fun, let's do it,” I would've never been interested in him in the first place. He's an incredibly thoughtful, self-aware, and intelligent person who takes great care in how he treats the people in his life and how he processes his own emotions. I didn't expect (or want) anything other than the careful, respectful response he gave.

    Ultimately, I feel pretty fantastic that I was able to be totally honest about everything and still come out of that conversation feeling completely confident in the stability, trust, and respect that is present in our friendship. It's like an awkward weight has been lifted off my shoulders, and even just hours after speaking with him, the topic feels put on a shelf for safe keeping. We'll discuss it whenever it feels appropriate.

    I think that's it for now.

    22 votes

  10. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    I don't take offense or think it's a knock on non-monogamy, and I think anyone should approach these situations with similar skepticism. Lying about having an open marriage is something that...

    This isn't a knock against you or anyone else who practices non-monogamy, but it would be hard for me to shake the feeling that this could be a pretext for cheating. I'd be wary of engaging someone who said they were in an open marriage unless I could confirm that with the other partner.

    I don't take offense or think it's a knock on non-monogamy, and I think anyone should approach these situations with similar skepticism.

    Lying about having an open marriage is something that plenty of people have done to their (unaware) affair partners. And even people who do have an open relationship can still cheat. I can't say I understand what would draw someone to cheat, when their whole lifestyle sort of revolves around making cheating unnecessary and avoidable (when it's already unnecessary and avoidable in all relationship styles, of course) but people do it.

    And even after verifying that the relationship itself is above board and consensual (like /u/Lia responsibly did before engaging with someone in a poly relationship, as explained in a comment elsewhere in the thread,) there are many other boundaries you can accidentally "violate" without having any knowledge of what they are. In that case it was that the couple had a miscommunication about how emotionally intimate they could be with other partners, or something along those lines.

    Caution and skepticism are almost required, in order to do things like this as ethically as possible.

    2 votes

  11. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    I'll jump in here and ask, what's your definition of cuddling? Some possible "gray areas" I can think of might be: Sitting close to someone on a couch and resting your hand on their thigh for a...

    For me it would be overt displays of affection like cuddling or kissing.

    I'll jump in here and ask, what's your definition of cuddling? Some possible "gray areas" I can think of might be: Sitting close to someone on a couch and resting your hand on their thigh for a minute? How about having a deep conversation with a friend and hugging them to comfort them for a little while during it? Once, when a typically tough, stoic friend of mine was going through a heartbreaking divorce, I was listening to him talk about it, and eventually he curled up next to me, laid his head on my leg, and cried for about ten minutes while I held his hand. (And since you mentioned "affection" as an add-on clarifier, which I do think makes sense to clarify - I would say that I was showing affection to my friend by holding his hand in that moment, though it was a platonic, empathetic, comforting kind of affection, not sexual or romantic. I'm guessing you meant sexual/romantic affection, but I'm just saying it's just another hair to split.)

    I don't mean to say these are typical examples of cuddling, but they seem like things adjacent to "cuddling" that would be considered inappropriate by some people, a red flag for others, some people might feel differently about each one based on who it was happening with, and other people might just not mind at all.

    Luckily for everyone, kissing seems much more straightforward. If lips are touching lips and neither of you has just been plucked from the ocean after being rescued from drowning, you're probably kissing.

    5 votes

  12. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    We don't have any particular mechanisms in place to steer things away from divorce, aside from always having proactive communication about any issues that could be present in our relationship. And...

    Out of curiosity, do you guys have any sort of protective mechanisms in place, namely something you'd do to deliberately steer things away from a potential divorce, if ever things started to seemingly head that way?

    We don't have any particular mechanisms in place to steer things away from divorce, aside from always having proactive communication about any issues that could be present in our relationship. And I would say the real thing we're discussing during those conversations is our individual and mutual fulfillment, rather than how to keep our marriage together - and it's just that our marriage does still lead to fulfillment for both of us, and that's why it's important to us.

    Maybe the best way to answer this question is to simply say that we don't want to prevent a divorce from happening. We want to always support each other in finding happiness and fulfillment in life, regardless of what or who that fulfillment ends up coming from.

    Or are you simply living in complete anarchy, accepting whatever future as is?

    I would say this is a good way of putting it.

    I don't know if you already know this term or if you just happened to pick the exact word, but "relationship anarchy" is a lesser known, less established relationship philosophy that shares some similarities with ENM/poly (though, interestingly, relationship anarchy can be fully practiced within monogamy as well.) In this post and in my life, I typically use the terms ENM or poly because these terms are understood (at least on a basic level) by the majority of the people I interact with. But the ideas behind relationship anarchy actually resonate with me the most.

    I have said elsewhere in the thread that "ENM doesn't come with a rulebook" which is definitely true in a way, but I also think that's an oversimplification. Because there are so many established definitions, labels, and practices in ENM, it's more like you're ditching the small handful of socially accepted rules for monogamy, and trading it in for a truckload of millions of new ideas for rules that you can freely pick from however you and your partners wish. This is not necessarily a bad thing at all, obviously communication is simpler when we have definitions for things, same as communicating about any complex topic (see when we crossed wires about the word "polyamorous.") And I can describe my relationship using ENM/poly lingo and agreed upon norms, since they're flexible enough that pretty much anything can fit under that umbrella.

    But when I said it felt absurd to me that your friend's poly relationship imploded over jealousy regarding emotional intimacy, it's probably relationship anarchy showing up in my thought process, not just my reaction to a messy situation. I believe most people who practice polyamory would say "ah, they should have agreed upon what each person is comfortable with and then not crossed those boundaries." And I guess that is what I said to you, because I was thinking about poly at the time. But if I was thinking about my relationship, I would say "I am not entitled to dictate or even know how much emotional intimacy my partner has with someone else, and I unconditionally trust my partner to explore that while still having deep regard for my feelings." It's up to him. He can ask me how I feel about it if he wants to know, and I can tell him how I feel, but I wouldn't tell him what he should do, and we wouldn't set up hard boundaries around it up front. And it's pretty much the same for any topic. We wouldn't dictate the gender of people we can engage with, which specific sex acts we're "allowed" to take part in, whether we can fall in love or not, whether we can live with someone else, etc.

    The boundaries we do have are more around functional things - we must adhere to specific safe sex practices, we have to recognize that we only have so much time in a day/week and respect each other's schedules, we have a dog to take care of so who's doing that today if you're busy and I'm at work, our money is shared so we both have a say in how it's spent, etc. (EDIT: interestingly, upon re-reading this I've realized that all of our hard "rules" I've listed here are actually the same as what monogamous couples do, aside from non-birthcontrol related safe sex being irrelevant in true monogamy. This is fascinating to me. To be honest, if non-monogamy added a higher number of rules and different boundaries to my life, I probably would not have enough energy for it.)

    And of course, we are always expressing our feelings to each other and responding to those feelings accordingly. Because we care deeply about the feelings of the other person, our "boundaries" are more like an ongoing awareness and concern about the impact our actions have on each other. We just don't enjoy doing something if it's hurting the other person, so things even out to a peaceful place as we continue checking in with each other. To go back to the divorce topic, I suppose if one of us did do something that was painful for the other on an ongoing basis, we couldn't find a balance or resolution, and it's something that person feels they can't go without - that's when we would discuss whether the marriage is still working for us or not.

    This got a chuckle out of me, because I always say that love is a decision and a set of actions, rather than a feeling

    I do as well. :)

    It feels like we have some oddly similar perspectives on the world and relationships despite implementing those perspectives quite differently in our lives. Maybe that's why you're able to ask questions that feel particularly introspective for me to consider, because the answers reflect why I've chosen this particular path. Thank you!

    3 votes

  13. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    Wow, it seems like you navigated an extremely messy situation with grace. The fantastic wording of this had me laughing out loud after I read how it ended. I mean, I'm sorry to hear about your...

    Wow, it seems like you navigated an extremely messy situation with grace.

    Him and his partner were adjacent pearls on the string of universe and could never be separated, no matter who else they dated or loved.

    The fantastic wording of this had me laughing out loud after I read how it ended.

    I mean, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's relationship ending, but they imploded mere weeks after you started dating him?! For something that seems fairly simple to navigate and re-negotiate, and most importantly, should have been covered up front? It's just a bit absurd to me. Now I'm so curious how many conversations they had about their boundaries concerning emotional intimacy, prior to engaging with you.

    Is there any scenario at all that you can imagine where you guys would be breaking up?

    Yes. I would say that "adjacent pearls on the string of the universe that can never be separated" is just about the polar opposite of how we think about our relationship.

    Even ignoring the ENM element, we are very open with each other about the fact that our marriage could end in divorce for a multitude of reasons. So far it remains an incredibly abstract, far off concept, but it is a concept we've discussed multiple times. (I elaborated on my thoughts about divorce in other comments in the thread, and I was going to link them, but they're so damn long that probably it wouldn't help anyway. If you're curious, they're my comments responding to the user "first-must-burn.")

    The reason I would seem this obsessed around the topic of breaking up is because many of the poly people I know seem to have chosen that lifestyle first and foremost in order to avoid a breakup.

    Yes, I believe this is a keen observation. For me it's the opposite - involving ENM in my marriage only makes it more vulnerable to divorce. And we haven't opened our marriage to solve any problems or fill some void that can't be filled within our marriage. On a base level, I would be perfectly happy just being with my husband for the rest of my life, if, for example, we never found any other compatible partners or we simply decided to be monogamous someday.

    I would be gauging your motives and the strength and quality of your relationship before considering getting more seriously involved with you. If your friend isn't doing that, then in my opinion he isn't fully aware of what he may be getting himself into.

    Interestingly, he has already asked about things like that even though I haven't told him about any of this. Just things like, we were talking about toxic vs. healthy relationships in general and he said "I'm sure you and Husband fight, like most people, right? You always seem to get along so well when you're in public." (I told him, not really, we have disagreements, but they're more like challenging conversations than "fights" or arguments, we don't raise our voices or say unkind things to each other.)

    Now, I highly doubt my friend was asking about my marriage because he wanted to be a part of it, ha! I think that conversation happened pretty early on. But we do talk about it somewhat often, and he knows a lot about how we function together, why we get along, some challenges we have had in the past, etc.

    Edit: I see that I explained my gripe with these pseudo-poly people in some length. Please don't take it as criticism towards you.

    Not at all, I share pretty much all the criticisms of behaviors within poly relationships that you've mentioned. Or "pseudo-poly," if we want to call it that. Though if you ask me, using pseudo-poly here is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. (I realize you are likely using the term to avoid being accusatory or rude to me and other people, which is appreciated.) Personally I think of polyamory as a lifestyle or a set of behaviors, rather than an identity or orientation. So anyone in a polyamorous relationship is "polyamorous" as long as they're in that situation, regardless of why they're drawn to poly, how good or shitty they are at it, or how naturally inclined for it they are. Certainly some people are better suited for poly than others, I just don't think that's what makes someone poly or not. All to say, nothing in your comment (or really most criticisms of ENM,) is personally offensive to me.

    I have poly friends who, in my opinion, clearly use the lifestyle as a way of never being alone with their own thoughts, or to shield themselves from the inevitable pain that comes from being involved in human relationships. Shuffling their cards around to ensure that they will never be without a partner with a shoulder to cry on or make them feel good. Like you said, a crutch to avoid facing demons.

    7 votes

  14. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    Honestly, a lot of conversations in ENM actually do feel like job interviews! :) There are so many factors to consider and things to clear up that it can almost feel clinical at times. In ENM...

    It's not a job interview, but as friends I feel it's valuable to know "where does your friend see himself in 5 years". If he's currently on a mission to find a monogamous partner, spending time having fun with you guys might derail or delay that plan, or he could have fun and then when the right person comes along, they might not understand this journey you shared together and it could hurt.

    Honestly, a lot of conversations in ENM actually do feel like job interviews! :) There are so many factors to consider and things to clear up that it can almost feel clinical at times. In ENM communities there are jokes about how much administrative work there is, like complex Google calendars.

    And I think you're totally right about needing to know the 5 year plan. Part of why this idea feels somewhat realistic is because he just decided to switch careers and is in school for engineering for the next 4 years. He also moved in with his family before starting school because he's been driving his grandmother to all her doctors appointments and such anyway, and so he doesn't have to work while he's focusing on school. I would imagine this isn't exactly the time that most people would be looking to build a life with someone, since he's focusing on himself and his family right now. In 4+ years he'll have his own place, a good job, planning to buy a house after that, etc. and that might be a more natural time to seek and invest in a life partner. I'll definitely ask a lot of questions about this though.

    Now, I certainly wouldn't be spending a lot of time at grandma's house, if you know what I mean... So I don't know what the logistics of that look like. But anyway he's just obviously in a period of liminality, transition, and personal growth. And while I'm tempted to feel like it's a positive, I have considered the exact issues you've mentioned (future partners, and potentially being "distracted" by our situation when he could be looking for someone else who has more to give.)

    Appreciate you wording your comment in the form of potential questions to ask.

    6 votes

  15. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    This is a good point. Personally, I really don't think I would mind it. If anything, I might like it if that part of our relationship sticks around somewhat, that would mean this whole thing...

    What if he's extremely into you, therefore giving the signals, but definitely not into ENM (either right off the bat or after experiencing it in practice with you)? In that scenario you two may decide you'll be better off being platonic, but you'd still most likely feel his attraction seep through the cracks, even if he tries his best to not flirt and do the other stuff you listed that you guys are doing now. In that event, are you able to let go and move on?

    This is a good point. Personally, I really don't think I would mind it. If anything, I might like it if that part of our relationship sticks around somewhat, that would mean this whole thing didn't change our relationship much, besides giving us some clarity. The open question of "are you flirting with me because you might actually do this in reality" is the reason I'm stuck ruminating on it, rather than the flirting itself. The flirting just made me start wondering about the question. I have a few male friends that I flirt with because both we know we're incompatible, have discussed that, and we know nothing will ever happen so it's very low stakes.

    If he tells me "no thanks, ENM won't work for me," then that means we're fundamentally incompatible. I am only excited about a relationship with someone if I feel we might be very compatible, and that they would benefit from it just as much as I would.

    5 votes

  16. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    This is something I have seen repeatedly as I have been reading about best practices for this. I cannot deny that it seems like the most responsible and realistic advice concerning my situation....

    I cannot recommend trying to date someone who isn't already actively looking for a poly relationship.

    This is something I have seen repeatedly as I have been reading about best practices for this. I cannot deny that it seems like the most responsible and realistic advice concerning my situation.

    Outside of getting very lucky, I think the healthiest way this could work out (maybe the only healthy way?) is if I proposed the idea, but then we let it rest for a long time, maybe even a year or so. And if the person reflects enough and feels like it is something they'd like to explore on their own volition - for them, not for me, maybe that's a little different.

    But I don't take this lightly. Personally I believe few people are truly suited for ENM. I am certainly not part of the crowd that believes "humans are naturally non-monogamous" so most people would be better off if they would just embrace the ideas behind it.

    7 votes

  17. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    I replied to the other part of your comment yesterday, but I wanted to come back to this, because I really don't like it when people act like straight men and women can't be close platonic...

    That it is unusual does not make it wrong. Else I were in big trouble...

    I replied to the other part of your comment yesterday, but I wanted to come back to this, because I really don't like it when people act like straight men and women can't be close platonic friends. Or that anyone can't be close friends, but the conversations all seem to surround men and women, (and everyone conveniently forgets the existence of bisexual and pansexual people, who are apparently all completely friendless, or are having friend orgies every time they see their friends.) And again, Tildes is the exception. It's the only place I know of where you can have a very reasonable, level headed conversation about things like this. I mean, look at how polite everyone is being in this thread, even though for some people with more conservative backgrounds, I may as well have posted "I have two heads. Where do I find health insurance that covers two pairs of glasses simultaneously?" Ha! I guess I already sort of mentioned that in my other comment. I'm just feeling grateful for the people here.

    Anyway, like you do (though I don't believe I know your gender,) I also have other male friends that I am close with on a purely platonic level, and have pretty much done most of the things I mentioned in my post (excluding ...pining after them.) Going on vacation together, sharing vulnerable thoughts, spending time alone, etc. When I said "I don't think most male and female friends do _______," that was poorly written or not fully thought out, because I literally do, with other friends. I even exchange light flirting with platonic male friends. I guess what I should have said is more like, when I flirt with other friends, it feels purely goofy, like both of us seem to know that we're just joking around. With this friend, it feels different. I'm not really sure how, but it does.

    I feel strongly that one of the best ways to understand the world more and grow as a person, is to get to know different kinds of people. I absolutely adore my female friends, and there is a level of comradery and understanding that I will never find with men. But in the same way, my male friends help me understand how men experience the world and how it treats them. (It's not that I feel men and women are very different on a fundamental level, it's mostly that we tend to have different perspectives due to our experiences.) All this to say, I can't imagine my life without my platonic male friends, and I think it's healthy to be close with any friend if it's a functional relationship and everyone involved (such as a spouse) has generally consented to whatever level of intimacy is involved.

    2 votes

  18. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    For sure. And if we ignore the idea of romance, there are so many different levels of friendship and affection. I have one friend where the only activity we do together is watch the bachelor! We...

    That's probably worst case scenario, to act like the friendship is only acceptable when it is the Highest Available Tier of Affection, which is obviously not a concern in your case.

    For sure. And if we ignore the idea of romance, there are so many different levels of friendship and affection. I have one friend where the only activity we do together is watch the bachelor! We chat about our lives casually, but generally watching TV and eating snacks is our thing. Then I have other friends who know pretty much everything about me and are integrated in most areas of my life.

    I don't expect any particular investment or effort from friends, I'll just take what they're interested in giving. I think that's kind of the beauty of friendships.

    The best case scenario was a friend who made it clear he was attracted, joked about it immediately when I told him I wasn't interested, and never brought it up again. We're still friends to this day.

    This is basically how I would treat it. I guess the only thing I would do is just ask to make sure I had stepped back enough, if I felt like something was off later on. Otherwise I'm fine carrying on as normal.

    I appreciate you giving examples of how differently this situation can be approached and perceived.

    3 votes

  19. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    This is a beautiful way of illustrating the concept I have tried to explain. For me, monogamy feels too definitive. I think we all have endless possibilities of different people who could have...

    The idea of them staying together in hatred rather than going on to have happy second marriages, just to serve the purpose of commitment, would not only have made them miserable, it would mean that I and my brothers wouldn't exist.

    This is a beautiful way of illustrating the concept I have tried to explain. For me, monogamy feels too definitive. I think we all have endless possibilities of different people who could have made us happy, and for those of us who are open to it, might make us happy in the future. There are so many variables and different paths in life, many of which we don't have a choice in.

    The thing that holds us together is that we make our lives and each other better.

    I feel exactly this way about my relationship. I like knowing that's the only thing keeping us together. (It's certainly not that we've never experienced challenges or hard days in the past decade, it's that we are always putting effort into each other, and doing that always works very well for us at the end of the day.)

    1 vote

  20. Comment on My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.) in ~life

    catahoula_leopard
    Link Parent
    Well, I actually agree with this. Though, I suppose I think of it a bit differently - marriage is more of a sterile legal contract to me than it is a way to think about love, but I think the...

    My wife and I read a book while we were engaged that started out by saying that the defining characteristic of marriage was not love or attraction or feelings, but commitment.

    Well, I actually agree with this. Though, I suppose I think of it a bit differently - marriage is more of a sterile legal contract to me than it is a way to think about love, but I think the general concept resonates with me. Instead of "the defining characteristic of marriage is commitment," for me it's "the defining characteristic of love is commitment." The way I put it is: real love isn't a feeling, or something you say, it's an action. It's something that shows in your day to day choices. When I am thinking about what to do with my life, where to live, how I'd like to retire when I'm old, etc. my husband is always in the picture. Sometimes other people pop up, but he's always there. I elaborate in the answer to your next question.

    Anyway, your statement about (lack of) guardrails and about possibly changing or ending your relationship with your husband made me wonder what shape commitment takes in your relationships. You seem like a kind and thoughtful person, so I am not trying to suggest there is no commitment in your relationships.

    This is a perfectly reasonable question.

    In my view, my husband and I are very committed to each other. We met in our early 20s and instantly fell for each other. Settling down was the very last thing on our minds at the time, in fact, we met at a music festival where we were frolicking around with bare feet and $3 in our pockets. But ever since the first week we met, there was a feeling that we would be together for a very long time. I come from a very conservative background like you, but I had rejected it by the time I was in my late teens. In our circles, people don't really settle down until they at least approach their 30s. Most people in our world would've moved on, had they met the potential love of their life when they were 21, because that's not what they were looking for at the time. It certainly wasn't what I was looking for, I had only dated 1-2 people by the time we met. But there was no way I was going to let go of this man just because I wasn't done experiencing the rest of the world yet.

    Going from being practically kids, to being in our 30s and owning a house and retirement accounts together, has been a long journey of consistently choosing each other. Early on, I helped him financially while he was in college, which didn't worry me because I knew he'd always support me too when he got the chance, and he has. People warned me not to buy a house with him before we were married, but that didn't worry me because I was confident we'd be together years later, and that was 6 years ago. We've stuck with each other through sickness and health, career changes, mental health issues, adopting a dog with severe behavioral problems, and much more. Even when life gets hard, our relationship is always easy. During the most trying times, loving each other has never felt hard, but if it ever did, we'd give it it a long, long try before we'd consider anything else. Conversations about divorce are not something we take lightly, and whenever we have discussed it, it is always in reference to a hypothetical situation many years in the future.

    I have found value in the traditional framing, and I'm very happy to be married to my wife, and expect to stay that way.

    I think that when you and your wife married, you likely agreed to something along the lines of "we will love each other and be only with each other forever, till death do us part," and only very extreme issues like abuse or neglect would be considered the exception to your promise. I think it's an honorable promise and I respect it, especially if it works well for you.

    When my husband and I committed to each other (which happened years before marriage,) our agreement was different. "We will love each other, build our lives around each other, and choose each other long-term, and we will do this as long as we both still make each other happy." (And of course, the "be only with each other" part isn't there.)

    My personal distaste for the unconditional, permanent commitment of traditional marriage probably has something to do with the fact that my parents are extremely unhappily married. Divorce is just not an option in their minds, and they have truly suffered for it. There isn't abuse present, there's just... nothing. I haven't seen them kiss or hug since I was probably 7 years old.

    Of course, we are nothing like my parents, but I think I needed to know that the person I love would never succumb to a life of passionless monotony, just to honor a commitment they made. I needed to know that my husband loves me so much that he would rather see me truly happy with someone else than try to make something work that wasn't working anymore, even though being together forever is what we want most. If, god forbid, I ever changed so much that I wasn't treating him well, I wanted to know for sure that he would leave me if I didn't change. For me, knowing all this makes me feel more at peace and more secure in the quality of our marriage.

    Honestly, this would improve a lot of monogamous relationships I know of. It makes me wonder if ENM pushes you toward healthier relationships because that thoughtful intention is not optional when you don't have deeply rooted cultural norms to fall back on the way monogamous couples do.

    This is quite interesting. I would say that monogamous marriages would definitely benefit from some of the communication styles and thought processes that are recommended in ENM. Because "forever" is not a sure thing for me and my husband, we regularly check in to make sure everything is really going well, and no topics are off limits for us. We are really radically honest. I think ENM encourages us to never forget about improving our relationship and keeping things exciting even when it's already going well. I think people can definitely take advantage of that concept without ENM being involved, and I know some monogamous couples do. "Never stop dating your spouse," and all that. I just think that concept is especially easy to remember when your spouse dating other people is literally an option. Our result is that our relationship is just as romantic and electric as the day we met, but with all the long-term benefits.

    On the flip side, personally I would not say that ENM pushes you towards healthier relationships. It can certainly lead to a lot of personal growth and discovery, but only when starting with strong relationship skills and doing things very carefully. If anything, I have seen a lot of chaos and pain come as a result of the ENM relationships in my friend's lives and reading stories about relationships online. It really does complicate things. Of course, those stories I've heard are self-selecting - people are more likely to discuss or gossip about a chaotic, dramatic relationship, and we have such a small sample size for examples of ENM relationships vs. traditional ones, even though ENM is common in circles that we run in.

    And I shouldn't speak for all people who practice ENM. My husband and I have taken this very slowly, and collectively, there's been more time where it's just the two of us vs. having other people involved. I'm definitely less experienced than other folks who have maintained secondary partners for many years, for example.

    5 votes