Owning a dog is a complete misery at the moment
It's nearly 6am here and I can't sleep because our sitter has decided last minute that she can only look after my pup from 9am - 7pm this coming weekend after confirming an overnight months ago, which has left us scrambling to find suitable care. I appreciate that because my dog has some stranger danger issues we're working through, his care isn't straightforward but apart from that he's young and healthy (no need for medications at specific times, etc.).
We've had multiple paid meetups with her since December last year to make sure he's comfortable around her. We've been explicit from the beginning that we will be back from this event late at night therefore we would be happy to pay an overnight fee and there is the option of staying in the guest bedroom if she's not comfortable travelling home that late at night. I said this multiple times. I understand that part of it is because she's been unwell for a while and another part is needing to get back to her own dogs but this is an absolute nightmare. We've been planning this for months. She's suggested getting someone else to cover the bit from 7pm onwards but because of his fearfulness of strangers I'm terrified of this happening without our supervision.
We have a backup sitter but she's recently gotten a puppy of her own so I have no idea if she'll be able to pitch in and help at such short notice. We need to be at the venue at 9am so my pup will need to be crated until the main sitter arrives - we already can't be there for one handover, the thought of another one having to happen is just more co-ordination to go wrong and more stress and worry for me. The easiest thing to do at this point would be to cancel the whole sit and miss my friend's wedding (at the very least my partner can still attend). There's just no good outcomes anymore: it's either cancel and stay home or we get sitter cover, we both go to the wedding, I'm miserable and worried the entire time.
It's not just this one off thing though. Actually finding a suitable sitter in the first place was a complete headache and it's been a constant uphill battle with trainers too. We had a trainer who was fantastic for several months but then got sick with covid before Christmas and since then contact with her has just completely petered out. Another trainer offered a six week package so I paid for the initial £115 assessment only to be told that she suddenly had to move to Manchester and couldn't commit to six weeks anymore, but she could offer two sessions in the fortnight that she had to get ready to leave (spoilers: she couldn't, turns out moving cities is a lot). A third trainer talked a big game over messages but it was utterly impossible to organise a session with him at all. As soon as I suggested an actual, tangible date instead of asking for his availability for a third time it was radio silence. Our weekly puppy classes are the only reliable constant in our lives.
It's genuinely put me in a bit of a crisis. Am I the problem? Have we just had fantastically shitty luck? Is this just the industry standard? Like, is this normal and does it just suck for everyone? My mood's absolutely spiralled from reflecting on all this, I love my boy to pieces but if this is the typical experience I just don't think I have it in me to own another dog after this. I want to believe that I'm just tired and cranky and it'll get easier once he's 2 or 3 years old, but right now everything around dog ownership is a miserable, miserable slog.
Other dog owners: please, please share your experiences.
Given what I’m gathering from your post it could be that you and your dog’s anxieties are playing off of each other. I know people with anxious dogs and they’ve been able to maintain their lives well. Finding the right help can certainly be hard but it’s also possible you’re making it extra difficult if you give the impression you’ll be a tough customer.
Did you get your dog as a puppy or was the dog a rescue with a history of trauma?
Also I’m sorry if I offend with my assumptions. I can only guess at some things.
No offence taken! I have definitely been told before that my anxiousness has been a problem with regards to him, and it's something I've tried very hard to be conscious of. I make a point of listening to the experts; we train every single day and we've made some really positive steps forward but he still has far to go. We got him from a pup but older than was ideal at 15 weeks so we've had to work very hard at socialisation and on top of that unfortunately the breed is sometimes just like this (Belgian Shepherd).
Looking back at past conversations with professionals I don't think I've been a particularly tough customer - I hope! I ask plenty of questions but only because I want to learn or understand ("Do you have any advice for getting him to be calmer around the cat?" "We want to do [activity], do you think he'll cope?", etc.), pay on time, and try to be as clear as possible in my communication.
We had a successful sit with our backup sitter back in January; I gave her half the money up front and made a point of letting her message me with updates rather than hassling her about how things were going. That was a great experience but it just doesn't seem to be the norm for us right now. I'm extremely grateful that she's available to do an emergency sit for us this Tuesday. Outside of that though, I've found the whole thing really quite demotivating and isolating.
Thank you so much for your response! I feel I should clarify a little bit: he is a Belgian shepherd but not a Malinois. I did my research and fully understood I was not the right person to have a maligator; they're just too much. What I have is a "lazier", softer show line groenendael who gets about 1.5 - 2 hours of exercise per day. That being said, he is still a Belgian shepherd so there is still a fair amount of temperament overlap!
He is largely not dog reactive. He has started to get a bit arsey with other intact males now, but I think that's within the realms of normal given his age; 95% of the time he is very dog friendly and has several friends at the park that he loves to play with. We are gradually helping him behave more appropriately around other intact males again (he doesn't have to be friends with them, he just needs to be able to ignore them and avoid any unnecessary dominance posturing).
I do understand that more specialised training would be enormously helpful, but I've been here bemoaning what an absolute headache it is to find anybody reliable. I'm really sorry if that didn't come across well in my original post, I'm looking to understand whether it's been this difficult for anybody else. The BSD circuit here in the UK is fairly small and although I've gotten some fantastic advice from people in the community online, actually getting to meet up with any of them outside of a show is like getting blood from a stone.
I give my pup's breeder updates here and there but she lives in France so that's a no-go. I've been able to meet up with one woman who's had 40+ years of experience with the breed once and that's it. Other than that I've had to make do with watching Robert Cabral's videos and trying to find people in my area that at least have experience with other large shepherd breeds. I work full time and can't reasonably drive out 3+ hours to a specialist on a regular basis (unfortunately that's the kind of distance for Boots and Paws).
For the five questions:
I completely understand the issue is far bigger than me missing one event, that's why I'm so upset. I am aware that I need help and support and I'm just not getting it in any regular supply for whatever reason. I appreciate you're being quick and factual but I really, really hope that I'm being as clear as possible and not giving the impression that I have no idea what I've gotten myself into.
Edit: I realise I didn't say anything about your recommendation of Nando, thank you for that too - I'm having a look now and will try to reach out to him!
Oh boy. My parents did have a Groenendael and while they might be "lazier" than Malinois they are still very much working dogs with a lot of energy and very specific training needs.
The Groendendael my parents had was an extremely affectionate dog but also a devil in disguise if she wanted to be.
Most people I know with Groenendael dogs do a lot of extra training with them. Or rather, they enroll into activity courses for the dog where they get to practice their intelligence and are kept busy.
More importantly, you need to train your dog to be alone if you don't Groenendael specifically will have extreme trouble with that later on.
Thanks for weighing in, I completely agree haha. Lazy by Belgian standards maybe but still full of beans. We do already do daily training, a weekly puppy class with various activities, some light scentwork at home and agility when the weather is good.
I have worked on making sure he can be left alone, I didn't want to have to deal with any separation anxiety further down the road! As long as he's exercised beforehand, he can be put in his crate with a stuffed kong and left by himself for 2 - 3 hours without any fuss. He was left for 4 hours once a couple of months ago. It wasn't on purpose, we hit traffic on the way back, but he'd peed in the crate and I felt very guilty about it. I wouldn't see any issue with leaving him for a little longer once he was a bit older, but I wouldn't want to make a regular habit of leaving him alone for 4+ hours.
That is good to hear, as far as activities go it does sound you are already doing really well :)
As far as leaving alone goes, I get not wanting to leave them alone for such long periods. I would not feel too guilty about the peeing in the crate, it is of course not nice but in the end it is a puppy bladder not being up to the task. If they were otherwise okay I'd say it could even be considered a success.
One note though
I totally get this from an emotional point of view. I just want to stress that in order to be able to do that, even incidentally, you do need to already start with it.
That's entirely fair, I have to see reason on this. At this point his bladder is probably as good as it's ever going to be so the thing holding us back now is mostly me. I'll see what I can do over the next couple of weeks.
Please don't be sorry, I really appreciate you taking the time to write up as much as you did! I'm also sorry if I'm coming off a bit bristly - I haven't slept and I'm just a big emotional gumbo at the moment. I completely take all your comments on the chin and I know that some of this is still about training me as well as training him. Even if I can't meet up with Sarah regularly, maybe a one off with her would be useful? I guess it's at least worth exploring. I've also messaged Nando with a brief explanation so I really hope that can go somewhere!
As someone who adopted an extremely people-reactive and dog-reactive Catahoula Leopard Dog: Taking the advice that is summarized in this post changed my life and saved my dog's life. The importance of this (clearly expert) advice cannot be overstated.
The only thing I would add is to recommend finding a support group for owners of reactive dogs. (There are groups on reddit, and local groups on Facebook, probably for any major city in the US. There are likely other options that I don't know about—sadly this is a big problem, likely more common than people think, even though dealing with it feels exceptionally isolating.) The process of treating the behavioral problems of a reactive dog can be incredibly mentally and emotionally draining. Spending months or even years wondering if you will need to abandon or euthanize your dog in order to move on with your life is very painful to experience. Sometimes you do need to find a better home for them, if it's even possible, and that is even more painful to experience, from what I have read about other people's situations. Having people you can relate to and talk to about all of this is impactful. It may be especially impactful for you, OP, as clearly you are experiencing emotional turmoil over this. I certainly did.
My life has been fundamentally changed by my dog, it has taken years of hard work, money, and effort to teach her how to exist safely and happily, and we still cannot live an entirely normal lifestyle (one example is that we will never be able to have her walking around the house when guests are over.) But giving her a happy life is also one of the most rewarding and satisfying feats I have ever accomplished. People let her down, she needed me, and I stepped up to the task. So did she. She has been forced to live in unnatural and far less than ideal circumstances for her breed, but she is a good dog, and we are lucky to have each other.
Owning a pet is in many ways very similar to having a child. You probably could swap trainers out with schools or something and place this in a parenting community without too many people noticing.
Having said that, I am missing a bit of context. How old is your dog? If I understand you correctly the dog cannot be alone at all?
I have a high anxiety dog, she did much better being left on her own when we ditched the crate and just let her roam the house while we were gone. She was around ~12 months when we stopped using the crate.
I would try just leaving her alone in your house by going for a walk with your partner a few times minus the dog and see how she does. It's hard to say without knowing the dog, but I think most dogs should be fine being left for 4-5 hours on their own, especially if they are already making it through the night without needing to pee. You could also just come home from the event a little earlier than planned?
Just pinging @16bitclaudes as it looks like you accidentally replied to me rather than them :)
Ah, whoops! Thanks!
Thank you! He's very good in his crate, doesn't bark or whine or throw a fit so possibly our issue is slightly different. It starting to sound far more like the specific issue with the sitter not being able to fulfil the original request we discussed months ago is now hinging on my own hang ups a fair amount and it should be fine and normal for me to just ditch him for 4+ hours at a time. If we leave the event early, it's not going to be particularly fun for either of us. Spending as much money as we have on a sitter, taxis, etc. to go and support our friend but not have a great time is noble but not particularly palatable.
I've spoken to my partner about it and done some more reading up on how long he could be safely left alone for, I am starting to lean more towards trying to have some courage and having her leave him at 7pm with nothing else in place. If it goes poorly I probably won't forgive myself for a very long time, but I'm already aware that I'm part of the problem sometimes so I want to try and do the right thing.
I'm still pretty chronically fed up with the constant song and dance of going through recruiting for a sitter. Filtering out the ones who can't read the advert, trying to arrange multiple meetups beforehand, having communication inevitably die out, chasing them up (even though everything in my body is screaming that if they can't remember to reply to a potential client for 2+ weeks then how will you ever rely on them for anything more important?). Arranging multiple paid meetups with the ones who actually manage to keep in touch, confirming a sit date, and then it all goes to piss at the end anyway. It's a similar uphill battle to find a trainer. It's utterly exhausting and demoralising!
I'm late to the party but I wanted to give you some reassurance. Many, many, many dogs live a great life spending 8hrs a day in their crate while their owners go to work. If your dog is cool in the crate, I hope the time from 7pm - when you got home was fine
Before I owned a dog, I would have thought that a comment like this was advocating for mistreatment of dogs. Now that I have a dog, I leave him at home for up to 8 hours. He is free to roam the house, but he almost always just sleeps on his bed the entire time without leaving it (verified by camera recording). If he were in his crate, there would be no difference whatsoever. I still think 8 hours is a long time to be alone, so we usually try to keep it under 5-6 hours, but I don't feel bad about leaving him crated for several hours in some situations, such as when we're traveling.
Thanks for chiming in to give some extra reassurance, I think I needed it more than I realised. Frustratingly enough, our sitter cancelled on us completely about 3 hours ago so we're back to our worst case scenario plan of my partner going to the wedding alone while I stay at home! I've been polite and fairly minimal in my response. She's refunding our deposit and I will avoid asking her to sit for us as much as possible in the future. I know a lot of this isn't her fault due to illness but trust arrives on foot and leaves on horseback; I'm missing a once in a lifetime event and it feels like all the preparation for it was pretty much pointless.
Still: if the day was not your friend, then it was your teacher. On the plus side I guess we've established that he can be left with other people and do just fine, and all this week's heartache and headaches have taught me that he probably can just be left alone for a good while too.
Definitely, at the end of the day, you have to do what is best for you. For us, she was fine in the crate but we felt better about leaving her when she wasn't in a crate, and there were no issues other than her sneaking in some unsolicited couch naps...
Yea, I hear ya. Arranging care is always frustrating. It gets worse too -- if kids are in your future, just wait until you're dealing with preteen babysitters via their overprotective agents ;). Anyways good luck, hope you can find a good long term solution!
He just turned 12 months at the beginning of this month, so we're in the teen stage right now. He can be crated for several hours if he's been exercised beforehand but (I think quite reasonably) I don't want to leave him in his crate alone from 7pm to when we get back, which will likely be past midnight. His usual bedtime is about 10pm.
If your dog is normally able to go through the nigh without a walk and is walked right before crating at 7, there should be no fundamental problem with them being crated for 5-6 hours, assuming they have water and some space to move around. I don't know your dog, but my insecure pup can handle 6 hours, though he's not happy about it.
That just doesn't sound very nice for him, I'm afraid. If I came back and found that he'd peed in his crate from being left for so long before bed or was generally unhappy, I'd feel awful. When he's old enough that we can trust him to be left to wander around the house uncrated maybe I'll feel differently.
I already replied elsewhere. You have a Groenendael, for your sake and their sake you need to start training them to be alone.
Of course, I have no complete insight in everything what you are doing. But the way you phrased this reply makes me worry that you are setting yourself and the dog up to be more miserable in the future.
I am not saying that you just should deal with the sitting situation as is. But that besides the issue you are facing right now, you should really start working on training them to be alone for longer periods. If you haven't started doing that.
Context: my family had a dog eons ago in a foreign country.
We would leave the dog unattended at home for a weekend. Or it would be in a crate/kennel/cage overnight if deemed untrustworthy.
I think dog ownership has become more difficult than having a child. It is an animal, it doesn't need human level rights. But these days it's unthinkable to treat an animal as an animal anymore.
I don't have any dogs right now but I have pet geese. The way my family babies them is so strange to me. I can't event butcher and eat them anymore because of family, and after these ones uncertainly won't be getting any more animals. I'm ready for animals, not more human level companions, and I think modern people are caught up in the middle where we originally set out for one type of commitment but end up morally on the hook for quite another level of it.
On the one hand, you have your own experience with animals, and that's totally valid. On the other hand, given the context of this thread I feel it can come across a bit as dismissive.
It's true that pet ownership has evolved a lot over time.
For many, pets are more like family members, which definitely raises the bar for their care and wellbeing. I don't think it's even so much about giving them human rights but more about ensuring they are happy and healthy.
Even if you don't quite view it the same way, in a practical sense you have neighbors to deal with as well. Dogs that don't handle being alone well generally tend to be loud for long durations.
One last thing I wanted to mention, just because it stood out to me.
This can mean a lot of things. In a lot of cases where people use similar remarks, it is about doing things in a way that are typically not accepted anymore. To be clear, I am not saying that is the case here. But it does follow the format and because it is so widely open for interpretation, it can mean anything. And I can't help but wonder what you mean by that? Given your earlier remark, I suppose it is more aimed towards your intro of just leaving your dog home over the weekend.
I wish there was a "Kind" label for comments, I appreciate this a lot. I think the spectrum between a hands off, borderline neglectful owner and an insufferable humanising dog mom/ dad is a pretty broad one. Hopefully most of us fall somewhere in the middle. I'm grateful that our understanding of animal psychology/ development has improved over the years, there are a lot of old school methodologies for dog training that I'd put up there with hitting children. Even if the intent was good, some of the ways we used to treat animals (and still do) were harmful and we can do better now.
All I care about is that my dog is safe, well fed and fulfilled.
Re-reading my comment earlier, I do want to apologize to you in particular. It's clear that you made very responsible plans for the wellbeing of a pup who has no alternatives other than to rely on you, and then these well laid plans were suddenly upset with no preamble and no feasible alternatives.
You've also acknowledged elsewhere in this thread that this is a temporary puppy-hood circumstance.
Re-reading what I wrote, it really does come across as "well back in my day --" in a very negative way, and particularly callous towards both your pup and what should have been a fun night out for you and our partner. Without defending myself, I will also offer that other things my family did to that pup was downright abusive and in no way should be the standard or even remotely acceptable today. And that I am glad things are a lot better now for the humans working with animals as well as the animals themselves. Perhaps some people go overboard, but on the other hand a rising tides raises all ships: the folks who further animal welfare the most will pull all of us closer towards a higher absolute minimum in factory farming, or animals in entertainment, or rodeos and requirements for irresponsible pet owners.
Thank you, I don't take any offence and it's good of you to say so. I understand that I probably come across as a very overbearing owner and I know some of it is first time owner jitters but I try hard to learn and improve all the time. He had to be sat all day today due to work commitments and the sitter was over an hour late due to traffic but I think I was pretty calm and reasonable about it all. Pup did fine and seems perfectly happy about everything.
Even though it sounds like your family made their mistakes, hopefully your pup overall had a good, happy life too. It's nice to think that overall we are working towards better lives for our pets and I really hope you're right that it can be extended more to all the other animals in our lives :)
I think you're being communicative and not overbearing :)
And probably the worst part about the sitter issue was the sudden change of plans leaving you in a lurch: had you known for a week that no one could come, you could have been able to do a lot to ensure your pup's comfort and wellbeing, but last minute while you're getting for a wedding is no time to get cancelled on. I would have handled it far worse and had "choice" things to say about it..... I'm still going on and on about a contractor going fishing instead of coming when he said he would, two years ago, and it wasn't a big deal.
My family's pup was loved, in a way that was "decent" at a time and culture when merely providing just enough poor quality food outside all day everyday would have been considered acceptable. Her name was Dolly and she always had a roof over her head, had dry soft bedding and proper dog food instead of left overs....looking back there was so much more we could have done for her, but at the time it was already considered excessive. My parents didn't baby Dolly by today's standards, but she always had enough to eat, and originally she ran away from her previous owner to our place and shivered and refused to leave. Her original owners couldn't pull her away and gave her to us out of frustration. It's frightening to imagine what must have happened to her there, if she already considers our place to be a safe haven.
I also remember my parents bought a lot of dog food everyday to give to the scrawny skin-and-bones guard dogs chained to construction sites exposed to the heat and rain all day all night....maybe we are improving little by little through the generations.
I tend to agree. My partner treats our dogs very much like children. I love them with all my heart but they are dogs not people.
I think it's part of why kenneling has gotten so ridiculously expensive. $100 a day to drop some food and water in front of them? I think it's ridiculous how much kennels cater to this whole "dog parent" thing. All I need them to do:
They definitely cater to "dog parents" who want/need hourly video updates and basically are looking for a preschool. Some send home report cards for the day with things like exactly what you they played with and if they ate all their home brought raw meat food and whose butts it sniffed. It's far far crazier than the afternoon care I recieved as a human child.
I probably wouldn't for a whole weekend but this a just a single day no? Just feed it before you go and when you get home and it'll be happy to just sleep.
Side question: Are the geese for eggs? I've wanted to get geese and have had birds for eggs before but haven't found it easy to know where to get geese from.
The geese were originally for meat and eggs. Now it's just eggs, and adorable companionship. But, they have become a 20 year commitment. I'm fine if one or two gets taken out by wildlife, we'll boost defenses as it happens, but not everyone in the family is okay with losses, and so not all of us can travel for the next 20 years.
They're very hardy, shrug off any tempest and blizzard just fine, will forage for grass by themselves, they don't get wet and their down is SO warm. Like very large very angry and very fluffy backyard chickens. Excellent guard animals (for low level threats and as super loud doorbells). We have Embdens, btw, big and white and especially noisy. You can try putting up a notice on the community board of your local feed store: geese are less popular than other livestock and folks who have them (like me) won't even bother advertising chicks/eggs to sell.
Eggs and companionship is how the hens have always been for me. With defences and an autofeeder I can easily go a week away and haven't lost any for years but the maths might be different in my head with chickens and bantams with the lifespans they have compared to up to 20 years. That's a good shout about the lifestock boards as that's how I've got some of the weirder bantams I've had.
Re getting geese are you in the US?
In my area, I would ask at a feed store. (In the rural county 90 minutes away). I would also check Craigslist farm and garden section. Failing that I would ask on r/homestead
The feed store is probably the best shout, I've got a few in my area I could ask at. UK so there's a lot more options in a 90 min drive aha.
I could find a feed store closer. However, I live in the city and people who keep birds here pay inflated prices for everything. Going to a true country feed store would be worth it. I believe London is even more urban than where I am.
We've done this with the cat before since he's a solitary animal anyway. As long as we fill two big bowls with food and a big container with water, he can come and go as he pleases through the cat flap. I am not sure what breeds of dog can be left alone for an entire weekend, but I don't think a Belgian shepherd is one of them. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable leaving any dog alone for that length of time.
I sympathise with your geese being babied though, we used to keep chickens.
A friend recently was going out of town and had asked me if I could check in on his cat. Unfortunately, I was out of town myself, so I couldn't. And his petsitter cancelled on him at that last minute. I asked him how long he'd be gone and he said two nights. Really? You can't leave a cat alone for two nights?
If I go on a trip less than 3 or 4 days, I don't usually have anyone check on my cat. Longer than that, than I certainly make an effort to get a friend to check-in at least once, if not twice (assuming I'm gone for like a week). Though, there has been once or twice where no one could, so he was left at home for a week with tons of extra bowls of water and food and extra litter (I do the same anytime I'm gone for over 24hrs). That's obviously not ideal, but he survived those 1 or 2 times with no issue. I didn't notice any behavior changes afterwards.
Of course, just like people are different, so are pets. So I have no clue if his cat is OK with being left for more than 24hrs. Maybe his cat is anxious, but just didn't mention that, Idk. And it sounds like 16bitclaude's goodboy is a bit more high maintenance naturally. I don't know anything about dogs so reading some of the comments here was illuminating.
With cats it certainly also depends on the character of the cats, what they are used to and it also changes by age.
We used to be quite okay with leaving our cat alone over a weekend, and she didn't seem to mind too much. But somewhere after covid when we started to go out more we did notice that she was no longer used to be alone. When we were not where she expected, she started looking for us and calling out quite loudly.
Certainly when she has been sleeping she now will sometimes suddenly wake up and the first thing she then does is make sure we are still there.
It is something she certainly did not do before. She still can be alone, she seems to mostly sleep anyway. The thing is though that we are not sure if it is a post covid symptom of lockdowns and the patterns being different or her getting older and maybe a bit senile.
What I do know is that we have become much more hesitant to leave her alone overnight compared to a few years ago.
There isn't any dog boarding near you? That's what my parents used for our dogs when I was a kid and we had to be away for a trip. I don't know if there's something in present year that makes that not common or something, but I think I've had friends use boarding for their dogs recently, I would look for that first, since you could drop them off, but maybe the anxiety makes that not an issue?
He is fearful of people and in the worst scenarios will bark, growl and lunge at a stranger approaching him without another dog. Thankfully we've established that it's all a big display and highly unlikely that he would ever bite someone but I'd like to set him up for success by not giving him the opportunity, he's just not a good fit for being dropped off at somebody else's house.
We've gotten him to the point where he's comfortable and confident enough around my partner's parents that we think he could stay at their house and we're going to try this for a few days in April, but it's just not possible for them this weekend.
Sorry to reply for a third time. But, this is what Groenendael do, they are extremely group/pack focussed. One positive point is that you will basically never loose them on a walk as they are constantly watching all group members. To the point that if it is a big enough group, you see them walk around and "count" the people present.
It also means that they aren't very trusting to strangers initially. It isn't fear though, they are just very protective. With the proper training though you can handle this. As a properly trained Groenendael will also take queues from you and as soon as you show you trust a "stranger" they will very easily switch to a friendly demeanor.
I really fear you are characterizing breed traits as something else and might be approaching them in a way that will only cause you more problems down the line.
edit: I just saw your comment here which does reassure me more that you are aware of this. So I might have read too much in your comment here.
Still, Groenendael dogs are often misunderstood and do benefit from training specifically aimed at the breed. If you can find someone who has experience with them or is even specialized in them, it likely will help a lot.
Thanks for the edit, I'm definitely trying to make sure I understand the breed well but I'm conscious that the vast majority of other people aren't going to understand "oh that's just a Belgian thing", they're going to see a big black wolfy looking thing with a mouthful of teeth and panic. I have unfortunately seen a few people flinch/ recoil when he's barked at them and I can't say I blame them, it sounds intimidating!
The breed standard specifies that they should be "aloof with strangers", but obviously what's going on right now is a bit more than that. I completely agree that he should be able to easily switch to being friendlier if I'm not worried about another person, and I do want specialised training. Finding someone who can work with us reliably is the part that's proving very difficult and is what I'm venting about a bit.
Oh for sure. The perception of other people is something that is difficult to change.
Ours at some point also decided that she did not approve of people cycling past the group.
Not even aggressively, but more of a "one does not just cycle past our group, that simply will not do" and she would run alongside cyclist for a while barking a bit. We could tell it was not her aggressive bark, but more a corrective bark. Which, of course, was never relevant for the terrified cyclists. This being the Netherlands with an abundance of cyclists it unfortunately meant that we had to be extra selective of where she could be let off her leash.
Anyone else she did encounter on walks was fine though.
What really helped with ours, was just a lot of socialization. Taking the dog to a lot of busy places with a lot of people and just walk around, mostly ignoring the dog and just be present and calm. It helps if the weather is better because then you can quite easily go to restaurants and such with outside seating and just sit there people watching.
Also, inviting a lot of people over for all sorts of things does help a lot. Of course, the people being invited should be aware of the underlying reason ;)
Definitely still working on the socialisation as much as we can! We used to sit on the park bench and people watch for a bit once we were done with playtime/ obedience, stand outside of train stations, supermarkets, etc. I've also had a few neighbours volunteer to come and stand in our back garden and be yelled at while treats are thrown from a distance when he stops and thinks things through. We're trying to work our way up to more indoor visits now, I miss how often we used to have people over!
To be honest, from what you have been telling me in various comments you are already doing a lot right. In fact, I'd say most of it.
In fact, I'd say it might be where a lot of the stress currently is coming from. As you seem to be really aware of the importance of doing things right in this fairly critical stage of their development.
While Groenendaels will always require special attention, if you do keep up the efforts it will set you up for a much less stressful future.
On a more practical matter. I was re-reading your initial post. Maybe it is possible to have the backup person your sitter suggested come over during this week? That way you don't need to worry about the introduction happening while you are not there.
Thanks for responding as much as you have, it's really helpful to get a sense check from someone else that's had a groenendael in their life too. I'm sure part of it is burning myself out trying to do as much as possible to get him where he needs to be and not seeing results "quickly" enough. I know it all takes time but at the same time I worry he'll get older and it'll become ingrained if it doesn't keep improving at a good pace.
On the plus side I do have our backup sitter coming over on Tuesday due to a work commitment, so if she can help out this weekend too it'll be better although I'll still be worrying about the additional handover. I'm a bit conflicted now. If she can't do it, I'm starting to wonder whether it will still be ok to just let the main sitter leave at 7pm with nothing else in place until we come home. That sounds horrible to me but a couple of other people have floated leaving him alone for a longer time and you've quite rightly said I need to start trying.
I still don't see you addressing what I would suggest: boarding at a kennel. If you're going to pay someone to dog sit overnight, it might even be less expensive to board at a kennel. All of the behaviors you're describing are things they'll be intimately familiar with. Our dog is bigger than yours and sounds to be more willing to bite strangers than yours and he boards all the time without incident. He even gets excited when he hears the name of the lead caretaker, who has told us that our dog acts protective around him when another dog is being aggressive.
We just get an indoor/outdoor run for him and tell them he's a no contact dog and everything is totally simple. No one will try to pet him and they'll only clean and feed him when he's on the other side with the door shut. It was just a little difficult to leave him there at first when he would try to follow us out the gate and would howl as we left...but once we saw how excited he got and how quickly he forgot about us when they would call him inside, we knew he loved it there.
I have addressed a couple of comments re. boarding - I'm just not at a stage with his training and behaviour where I'm confident in doing that. It's unlikely but not impossible, and if he does end up biting somebody then it'll be me that has to deal with the baggage of feeling like an irresponsible, sorry excuse for an owner. I've had some paid meetups with people who offer both sitting and boarding services and they've agreed that sitting him in his own home will probably be better for now. I'm glad this works well for your dog though!
At all the boarding places in my area the dogs are kept completely isolated from all the other dogs, and even the staff working there. The one I take mine to, each dog's room is totally private with its own doggy door leading to the outside gated area. The dogs are each let outside individually three times per day for 15-20min to go to the bathroom, get some fresh air, and have a run around. And while they're out in the yard the staff then go into the rooms to fill their food and water bowls. But I also live in a rural area with lots of working dogs that aren't so friendly or socialized, and tend to be a lot more territorial... so it might be different in the city.
So have you actually gone to any boarding places in your area to check them out and ask about their procedures? Because if they're anything like the ones in my area, I think your fears of your dog biting someone there may be totally unwarranted. In most boarding places that I know of, there shouldn't be any chance of that happening unless it's one that specifically offers staff social interaction and communal play for the dogs... which I've never taken my dog to before but have seen/heard of those kind of boarding places existing. But even in ones like that, you should probably still be able to just specify that you would prefer to keep your dog isolated from the staff and the other dogs because of biting risk, and they will accommodate you by giving your dog time alone in the yard.
I will make sure I go and look at boarding facilities nearby later in the year because it will be helpful to make sure I don't have misguided assumptions about what is on offer, but in the UK a lot of people offer boarding in their homes and he is not suitable for that. The time they get to run around outside that you describe would be woefully inadequate - he needs a minimum of 1.5 hours of good exercise a day. Sure, he could survive one day with less, but I'm also not keen on the idea of him being left isolated and with no mental stimulation for the entire time. I struggle to see the value in paying all that money for him to be bouncing off the walls when we collect him the next day.
As I said, I'll check them out and I will keep an open mind but not every dog is a good fit for boarding kennels, and that is ok.
To be fair, the only time I've boarded my dogs has been in winter time... and I'm in Canada where it can get quite cold, so 3x 20 min trips outside per day is already pushing it with short haired dogs (which all mine have been) with no coat (since the staff can't put one on them). I have no idea how long they're given in the yard during spring/summer/fall, but I imagine it's probably similar since the boarding place I go to has about a dozen pens. And 12 dogs x 15-20 min x 3 times per day = 12 hours spent just doing rotations in the yard between all the dogs. But procedures may vary based on the boarding place too, how expensive they are, and how many dogs they board. More expensive places = less dogs = likely more individual time in the yard.
Again, I can only speak to the boarding place I go to, but mine encourages people to bring toys and other comforts for the dogs (blankets, etc). And the yard itself has a bunch of stuff in it for stimulation, like ropes on poles, and a few obstacle coarse type constructions. So they're not completely without stimulation. And even though the staff don't go into the same room as the dogs, they can and will still talk to and interact with them. E.g. You can provide treats which they will occasionally feed them through the caged door.
And while all that might not be ideal, ultimately, sometimes needs must. If you have to go away, can't take your dog with you, and can't find someone you trust to dog sit (or can't trust your dog with other people), sometimes you just have to accept your dog having a short stay in slightly less than ideal conditions. And to be a bit blunt, if you don't mind my doing so. You say you're in complete misery right now, but it also seems like you're very resistant to doing what most dog owners simply accept having to sometimes do in order to go about their life, and lessen their burdens when needed.
The bluntness is fair and probably something I need to hear sometimes. It's been a very rough 24+ hours and I'm genuinely grateful for everyone's responses. Having looked into it more, just leaving him alone for a fair while after the sitter has gone will probably not be a traumatic outcome (for him, at least!). When I first wrote this, I didn't even consider that as a possibility because I've never left him alone for that long. I'll admit, I don't feel ready to do it and I'm scared. I'm sure to some people he's just a bloody dog and it sounds silly to say, but I do. But scared owners make mean dogs and he's growing up all the time, I need to try harder and show some courage for both our sakes.
I will look at boarding some more. I respect the opinions of the professionals who've said he probably wouldn't do well being boarded in someone's house but if there are nearby facilities comparable to the ones in Canada, then I've got to accept that there are probably other things I'm afraid to do that would ultimately benefit us both.
Out of curiosity is this your first dog? I think the first one is when you feel the most anxiety and fear, but it gets a lot easier with every subsequent one. Eventually you'll learn they're not made of glass, can largely take care of themselves for extended periods (so long as they have adequate food and water), and you don't have to worry about them quite as much as you did the first one. ;)
I'm on my fifth dog, which is why I named him Quincy, and I love and spoil him every bit as much as I did all my others. But I also know from experience now that I can leave him overnight without any major issues. He gets separation anxiety a bit, which I do feel bad about, but I make sure to make it up to him with lots of treats and play time once I get back. :P
In any case, I hope things work out for you so you can go to the wedding. And I hope if you do decide to leave your dog alone overnight he's a good boy while you're gone. :)
Ding ding, first time owner. We've had other dogs in the family, but this one is mine. I'm too far away from my family to really see them on a weekly basis anymore or get any support there and my mum hasn't been a particularly model owner for her dog anyway (an impulsively rescued staffy who's been underexercised and is basically too old and arthritic to really do much apart from sleep now). I've admired the breed from afar for over 10 years now and deliberately waited until we had a house with a huge garden to start actively looking for a puppy.
I hope things work out ok for the wedding too but more than that I just hope things work out ok overall. I wish I didn't feel like we need to go through the endurance test of vetting sitters, I wish I wasn't struggling to find a trainer that could actually stick around to work with us and I wish that he just continues to mellow out over the next year so that I can relax a little about everything. Thanks a ton for taking some time with me.
YVW! I wish you good luck, and hope that your puppers chills out eventually too. He very likely will so long as you stay consistent, and keep the training and exercise up. Young puppers are always full of piss and vinegar, and love testing boundaries to start with. But even though you're struggling now, once he does chill out you'll probably look back and miss the rebellious phase a bit, in a weird way. That's the paradox of dog ownership! :)
I would not board a reactive dog, and many boarding facilities may not want to either. I would focus on training first, deal with the immediate issue first, then consider boarding in the future.
It's totally fine. Not every facility will accept dogs like ours, but this place really loves him and he loves it there. As long as no one tries to touch him, he is perfectly calm and he's been to many different trainers, none of whom have been able to fix the reactivity. He's a very well-trained dog who responds immediately to commands; it's just those rare half seconds before anyone else can respond that are a problem.
And, to be fair to him, he always gives a warning growl before trying to bite.
How early were you planning to return?
Is there a reason you can't board the dog ?
Can you come home by 11?
Realistically we wouldn't be home until after midnight and unfortunately he's not suitable to be left at a stranger's house. We could come home by 11 but that would mean leaving the wedding early and honestly it's a lot of money to spend on a suboptimal experience. If it's going to be that way, we'd rather take the suboptimal option that's cheaper (i.e. me staying at home). We have at least one solution to the specific issue of this weekend but I guess I just want to understand if it's always this tough with regards to unreliable sitters/ trainers/ services for other dog owners too.
The experience of caring for a dog varies with the dog.
I have never had a dog that wasn't friendly to most strangers. I have never had a dog that I couldn't leave with a professional like a veterinarian or a dog boarding facility. I have left my dog both crated and uncrated with no harm done to the house or the dog.
Temperament matters a lot. My last dog was half Labrador. I have also had spaniels, a collie, boxers.
Does the reactive dog subreddit match your experience with this dog?
Thanks for sharing the reactive dog subreddit! I wasn't aware it existed but it makes sense, there's one for everything. I'm just looking at the top posts of all time and to be honest it's helped put into perspective that he's not that bad. Even the one post that felt like it resonated a bit more is nowhere near 1:1 with my experience.
I was very sound of mind when I got him, I researched the breed extensively, I live in an appropriate house for him with a 55m long garden. We can walk down the high street together and I can feel about 75% confident that he won't bark or growl at anybody: sometimes there will be someone with a cane or crutches, or someone will turn their attention on him because he's a pretty dog, or someone will suddenly walk out of a doorway or an alley and catch us by surprise but it's generally doable. We also regularly go into the vet's during their quiet hours and he's become especially fond of one of the technicians there. We do the same at our local pet store and he's warmed up pretty well to the staff. More recently I've caught him thinking about reacting to someone but he'll make a good choice and redirect himself. I have to reassure myself it is getting better and the hard work is paying off.
Honestly I saw another post on there about how an owner was shocked her dog passed the lead temperament assessment for doggy daycare and as much as I think he's unsuitable for things like that, maybe I'm underestimating him. I've been told conflicting information in the past about how he needs to be in group classes and that he's not a good fit for group classes so needs one on one training. We have a weekly group class anyway and he seems to manage in that (good days and bad days of course, but that can be said for all of the dogs in the class!). I guess it's worth getting in touch with our local daycare service to see what's possible in future, since they also offer overnights.
Edit: an update on this - I've spoken to the daycare service and they don't accept shepherd dogs of any kind 1. because of their herding behaviours and the wellbeing of other dogs, 2. because they can't guarantee that the environment is mentally stimulating enough for shepherds. Entirely fair, back to the drawing board.
I just wanted to be sure you aware that you chose a challenge because your post suggested you were being turned off of dogs in general and I don't think that is a fair response. I feel for you. Teenaged dogs and puppies are hard at best but it sounds like you are making progress and you have a good dog in the making with the right investment.
Having said that, choosing a shepherd rather than for example a laborador is playing on hard mode. But you know that. Best wishes.
I don't know if this comment will be relevant to your topic, I suspect not, but I've read every comment in here I think and I didn't really notice many other comments sharing experiences with trainers or sitters. It makes me wonder if your experience with trainers or sitters is just that it's not a very sustainable career for most. I did see one of the more detailed responses gave some recommendations for trainers so it's not like they don't exist, but just the overall impression I got from reading this whole topic is that its seemingly a small subset of people who are able to sustainably engage in that work at a quality level, especially as it seems some breeds demand even more special knowledge and experience.
Basically I'm just motivated to even say anything because it seemed noteworthy to reflect upon considering your questions in your post. Perhaps your experiences are not reflective on you or your dog necessarily, but rather that the type of job and the people who would get into that job at any given point might lead to the results you have experienced. Someone might have experience with some breeds of dog, and try to branch out their work to other breeds and maybe it doesn't work out, or maybe the work isn't fulfilling or doesn't pay enough etc. and sometimes that can be reaching your limits of control when it's not necessarily reasonable for you to personally fully sustain someone's career financially doing that type of work, and if other dog owners in your area aren't as invested in their dogs as you are or don't have a need for those types of services then the natural conclusion could be that there just simply wouldn't be enough interest to sustain people in those lines of work. To me it just explains the unreliability you have expressed you experienced. You've expressed that you're clearly willing to pay people to care for or train your dog and people generally like money, it's the foundation of our economies that people regularly show up for jobs just to get paid. Of course that's more consistent when its a full time job that can sustain their lives, otherwise people are less likely to prioritize that work if something else comes up.
Mind you I don't own a dog, in part because I know it's a lot of responsibility that I don't want to take on, even for a lower maintenance breed. It also comes to mind for me that striking a balance of your needs and happiness with your dogs needs and happiness might allow you to continue to being a good dog owner in the future (since you mentioned this experience had you reconsidering owning another dog). It could put you in a position to still be able to make a positive impact in a dogs life in a way that someone like me isn't because I couldn't bring myself to make smaller compromises for a dog that would entail less responsibility than the situation you find yourself in. It seems fair not to be so hard on yourself for not being able to meet your dogs every need especially when it comes at such a great expense for yourself, because your dog may still have an overall pleasant life even if some moments in its life are trying due to you making compromises for your own well-being.
100% relevant and really resonates with me, thank you for adding your thoughts. It's very possible that this kind of career has a high rate of failure and that could go a long way in explaining why sustained contact tends to be so difficult. Thank you for your kindness too, I think I am starting to accept that it would be ok (maybe even better) for me to try and strike a bit more of a balance with his needs. It's a bit of an easier pill to swallow now that I've had some sleep.
I'm gonna answer here: dogs are hard. I don't think you're going through anything abnormal. You don't hear about "normal" dogs, only good dogs!! I had to take a week off work for my first dog. I walked for HOURS every night. I couldn't leave her alone for a minute. It was hell. I had landlords and neighbours calling to complain... I seriously considered having to return her to the rescue, if you can imagine that. Awful.
In the end, she was the best dog ever. But yeah, it's tough. Most trainers are absolutely awful. That's normal. Most pet sitters are flakes. (Almost by design, no?) Keep at it. Wish I was nearby, I'd come over and help!
My advice: search for "working dog" everything. "Working dog kennel", for example. They would never let dogs play together. They would treat dogs with respect. Working dogs are dangerous, and someone with working dog experience would be able to handle any dog. I had a really good kennel like that, and you just trusted your dog would come home safely.