21 votes

Reddit Rules and the Banning of Certain Anime Communities

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82 comments

  1. [65]
    gyrozeppeli (edited ) Link
    This just comes down to the loli argument and whether one thinks its okay or not to draw young people (appearing under 18) in a lewd fashion. It's a cultural divide between western audiences and...

    This just comes down to the loli argument and whether one thinks its okay or not to draw young people (appearing under 18) in a lewd fashion. It's a cultural divide between western audiences and Japanese audiences. This is why the bigger (Western) Mastodon [a federated social network] instances block pixiv.net/pawoo.net.

    I think it's absolutely abhorrent, but from what I've heard it's not seen in that light in Japan. Since reddit is a company based in the western hemisphere and has a primarily western hemisphere audience, they should behave according to western hemisphere cultural standards.

    I'm also tired of the bullshit argument that so-and-so character is "actually 1000 years old" in the story or whatever. Manga/Anime "age" is really nebulous, but I think I can tell when I'm looking at a minor by any reasonable standard. So therein lies the issue, because it's vague.


    Reddit also clearly has gone corporate and no advertiser in the US wants to be on a site that possibly hosts minors or people who look like minors drawn in lewd ways. I can understand that.

    24 votes
    1. [50]
      Randomacts Link Parent
      The main issue here is that people are getting banned for extremely tame pictures. The picture in question isn't lewd in any fashion. Banning loli hentai is clearly acceptable but with how things...

      The main issue here is that people are getting banned for extremely tame pictures. The picture in question isn't lewd in any fashion. Banning loli hentai is clearly acceptable but with how things are this basically bans most of anime even the SFW stuff.

      The main thing that bugs me about this whole thing is how blatant it is that Reddit is just purging content to prepare itself for advertisers. They are well within their right to do that but we are also within our right to be mad at them for that.

      34 votes
      1. [2]
        JacobM33 Link Parent
        I absolutely agree. Reddit is slowly evolving into another highly-censored social media mainstream shithole and I can't stand it anymore. The kinds of pictures that are likely to be posted just...

        I absolutely agree. Reddit is slowly evolving into another highly-censored social media mainstream shithole and I can't stand it anymore. The kinds of pictures that are likely to be posted just casually by users are not depicting any loli hentai or that kind of stuff, its just tame stuff that despite being banned, is still in a lot of the anime that is discussed on the site. I hope this site never turns into that

        8 votes
        1. Randomacts Link Parent
          And the move that animesuggest is going with is even worse. This effectively makes the subreddit useless for a huge amount of people. There are plenty of great ecchi anime and now they will be...

          And the move that animesuggest is going with is even worse. This effectively makes the subreddit useless for a huge amount of people. There are plenty of great ecchi anime and now they will be erased from existence on that sub.

          Reddit is no longer a home worthy for weebs and I hope that we can reconnect on another platform. It is going to be a messy transition no matter what happens. :(

          5 votes
      2. [27]
        vakieh Link Parent
        Anyone who gets mad at a website for blocking child porn needs to reevaluate the priorities. And probably their moral compass. Not that Reddit hasn't done things people should be mad at them for,...

        Anyone who gets mad at a website for blocking child porn needs to reevaluate the priorities. And probably their moral compass. Not that Reddit hasn't done things people should be mad at them for, but this is absolutely not one of them.

        7 votes
        1. [17]
          NaraVara Link Parent
          We are talking about cartoons though, so it's a bit muddier. The main problem with child porn, I would argue, is that you have to abuse children to create it. If no children are being abused, as...

          We are talking about cartoons though, so it's a bit muddier.

          The main problem with child porn, I would argue, is that you have to abuse children to create it. If no children are being abused, as in a cartoon, then you've rendered the biggest problem moot.

          A secondary problem is a general societal loosening of the taboo around sexualizing children. This is a dicier one that I think our individualistic culture is bad at mediating. And you can see how a community with a strong libertarian streak might brindle under this. Lots of people think it's unacceptable to engage in "cultural engineering" of any kind. (They are wrong, but with internet culture those of us who think so are very much iconoclasts).

          There is another side issue where the internet is a big place with lots of different types on it. Reddit has a lot of 14 and 15 year olds on it and it's kind of normal for people that age to have sexual feelings towards other teenagers. While we generally think kids that age should be kept away from porn, it's not actually THAT weird that they would be looking for it. And in any case, they're banning cartoons of girls in bikinis and skimpy (though still SFW) outfits, but these kids are still able to go to r/GoneWild, which strikes me as an odd juxtaposition.

          32 votes
          1. [16]
            gyrozeppeli Link Parent
            It's ok to have natural tendencies at that age, but sexualization of minors is sexualization of minors. The posters on /r/gonewild are [supposed to] be over 18. I'd imagine reddit keeps an eye on...

            It's ok to have natural tendencies at that age, but sexualization of minors is sexualization of minors. The posters on /r/gonewild are [supposed to] be over 18. I'd imagine reddit keeps an eye on that since so many people browse there.

            If no children are being abused, as in a cartoon, then you've rendered the biggest problem moot.

            That's true, but sexualizing minors is still completely abhorrent, even if it's fictional.

            Also, is it a coincidence that Japan has issues with sexual assault and actual, raw sexism? Does manipulating exam results to exclude women (...in 2018) sound like the work of a society with a healthy image towards women?

            8 votes
            1. [8]
              NaraVara Link Parent
              They're cartoons though. Not minors. But 14 year olds can still jump in and see them. The only thing stopping them is a "Yes I'm over 18" button to view NSFW content. What muddies it even further...

              It's ok to have natural tendencies at that age, but sexualization of minors is sexualization of minors.

              They're cartoons though. Not minors.

              The posters on /r/gonewild are [supposed to] be over 18. I'd imagine reddit keeps an eye on that since so many people browse there.

              But 14 year olds can still jump in and see them. The only thing stopping them is a "Yes I'm over 18" button to view NSFW content. What muddies it even further is that Reddit ALSO uses their NSFW tagging system as a jury-rigged tool for veiling spoilers. So a person who doesn't care about having spoilers for a show they like might be driven to globally disable the NSFW filter and suddenly it's open season on all the porn.

              Also, is it a coincidence that Japan has issues with sexual assault and actual, raw sexism? Does manipulating exam results to exclude women (...in 2018) sound like the work of a society with a healthy image towards women?

              Generally we should avoid making sweeping generalizations about an entire society of people based on decontextualized tabloid headlines that most of us lack the cultural background or foreknowledge to fully understand. It's essentializing and orientalist.

              25 votes
              1. gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                Please, don't brandy about such ridiculous words in an attempt at ad hominem. Japan consistently has issues with sexism. I personally live in Korea and can tell you that issues with sexism here...

                It's essentializing and orientalist.

                Please, don't brandy about such ridiculous words in an attempt at ad hominem.

                Japan consistently has issues with sexism. I personally live in Korea and can tell you that issues with sexism here also exist, but not to that extent. Korea doesn't need to have gender separate rail cars, for example. That's like saying foreigners can't judge America for having a gun problem. They won't have the full nuance, sure, but when news consistently comes out about specific issues in a place, one can begin to piece things together.

                But 14 year olds can still jump in and see them.

                This argument really makes no sense. "But think of the children". Reddit makes those communities gated as to persons 18+, and new accounts have the nsfw filter on I believe. There's no way to prevent crafty 14yos to getting to places where they shouldn't be. Even so, reddit does not host porn of 14 year old children or minors who cannot legally consent. Even if a kid goes out of their way to see it, it still should [in theory] be from someone who consented, as a legal adult.

                5 votes
              2. [6]
                demifiend Link Parent
                Nobody cares unless they're Japanese or weeaboos. Save the loli shit for 4chan.

                They're cartoons though. Not minors.

                Nobody cares unless they're Japanese or weeaboos. Save the loli shit for 4chan.

                5 votes
                1. [5]
                  NaraVara (edited ) Link Parent
                  Is Vladimir Nabokov a weeaboo now, or does Lolita only become weeb if you animate the story? Edit: Also, saying "nobody" cares except the people who care is true of literally everything. All...

                  Nobody cares unless they're Japanese or weeaboos.

                  Is Vladimir Nabokov a weeaboo now, or does Lolita only become weeb if you animate the story?

                  Edit: Also, saying "nobody" cares except the people who care is true of literally everything. All you're doing is deciding that people on the other side of an issue are subhuman and beneath caring about, which isn't really a constructive starting point for a discussion on anything.

                  Save the loli shit for 4chan.

                  If it's abhorrent, it should be abhorrent everywhere including 4Chan. The Nazification of 4Chan is a pretty strong case study in how fencing off toxicity only makes it stronger. It's like creating a genetic algorithm to develop the most viral and toxic strains of whatever behavior you didn't like in the first place until it eventually jumps the line into the mainstream.

                  16 votes
                  1. [4]
                    demifiend Link Parent
                    The difference between reading Lolita in public and looking at lewd (or even slightly suggestive) fanart of the girls from Persona 5 in public is that the former is still "respectable" and...

                    Is Vladimir Nabokov a weeaboo now, or does Lolita only become weeb if you animate the story?

                    The difference between reading Lolita in public and looking at lewd (or even slightly suggestive) fanart of the girls from Persona 5 in public is that the former is still "respectable" and therefore less likely to get me branded a pervert or investigated and prosecuted as a pedophile.

                    If it's abhorrent, it should be abhorrent everywhere including 4Chan.

                    You don't understand 4chan. 4chan has always been a place where the abhorred go to do and say the abhorrent. It has always been the Mos Eisley of the web, a wretched hive of scum and villainy. IOW, it was a shithole before the Nazis and the alt-reich showed up.

                    6 votes
                    1. [3]
                      NaraVara Link Parent
                      So the only difference you see between Lolita and actual child-porn is the social opprobrium? No other considerations get involved? And where did doing things in public come into play? There's...

                      The difference between reading Lolita in public and looking at lewd (or even slightly suggestive) fanart of the girls from Persona 5 in public is that the former is still "respectable" and therefore less likely to get me branded a pervert or investigated and prosecuted as a pedophile.

                      So the only difference you see between Lolita and actual child-porn is the social opprobrium? No other considerations get involved?

                      And where did doing things in public come into play? There's lots of things people do that aren't acceptable in public. You can't take a dump on the bus either. That doesn't say anything about the inherent virtues of taking a dump.

                      You don't understand 4chan. 4chan has always been a place where the abhorred go to do and say the abhorrent.

                      It doesn't really sound like you understood what my post was. I suggest you reread the part of that paragraph that you excluded from your quote.

                      8 votes
                      1. [2]
                        demifiend Link Parent
                        I understood that your post was bullshit in the Frankfurtian sense. You were trying to persuade me when I had already given you my opinion. Which is fair enough; when I give somebody my opinion to...

                        It doesn't really sound like you understood what my post was.

                        I understood that your post was bullshit in the Frankfurtian sense. You were trying to persuade me when I had already given you my opinion. Which is fair enough; when I give somebody my opinion to do with as they will I risk them trying to persuade me to change it.

                        I suggest you reread the part of that paragraph that you excluded from your quote.

                        I've given your suggestion due consideration.

                        2 votes
                        1. NaraVara Link Parent
                          There is no value to a stranger's unsolicited opinion. At all. Unless you wanted to engage in a discussion, why participate in the first place? Why do you think anyone would care about unsupported...

                          There is no value to a stranger's unsolicited opinion. At all.

                          Unless you wanted to engage in a discussion, why participate in the first place? Why do you think anyone would care about unsupported assertions from a random person on the internet?

                          I also don't really care about persuading you, personally. I pointed out the ways in which your opinion is poorly considered. Anyone reading can walk away with a more complete picture about its weaknesses in case they had trouble putting their finger on exactly what didn't sit well with them about it.

                          I understood that your post was bullshit in the Frankfurtian sense.

                          If you read On Bullshit and walked away thinking bullshit = discourse or discussion, then it really sounds like you didn't understand what Frankfurt was talking about either. It's not about trying to change minds in itself, it's an examination of a particular form of sophistry.

                          He's mostly trying to investigate the ways in which bullshit is distinct from lying and decides the key differentiator is that a liar still has to care about objective truth if only to steer you away from it. The bullshitter, in contrast, doesn't actually care about what is true or not as long as you come to their preferred conclusion.

                          10 votes
            2. [3]
              hollowzen Link Parent
              You are conflating one issue with another, issues with sexual assault and sexism is not a direct coorelation with the problem of 'sexualizing minors'. If anything the anime industry in Japan is...

              You are conflating one issue with another, issues with sexual assault and sexism is not a direct coorelation with the problem of 'sexualizing minors'. If anything the anime industry in Japan is one of the few where sexism has been largely eliminated.

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                That's a really good joke. Yes, an industry and infantilizes/cutesifies women and often treats them like objects has largely eliminated sexism! Good one, there. Real good. It's not directly...

                If anything the anime industry in Japan is one of the few where sexism has been largely eliminated.

                That's a really good joke. Yes, an industry and infantilizes/cutesifies women and often treats them like objects has largely eliminated sexism! Good one, there. Real good.

                It's not directly co-related, but it is related to the fact that a large portion of anime/manga luridly draw women in general, and infantilize them, for an adult, largely male audience.

                1 vote
                1. hollowzen Link Parent
                  The anime industry is one where a female can shine brightly as an artist and acknowledged equally. Consider that Comic Market, the biggest comic convention event on the planet, was initially ran...

                  The anime industry is one where a female can shine brightly as an artist and acknowledged equally. Consider that Comic Market, the biggest comic convention event on the planet, was initially ran and supported by group of women such as the Year 24 Group (a circle of female shojo manga authors). Even today there is no shortage of female-pandering content in Comiket, I guarantee you.

                  Have you ever heard of Naoko Yamada? The director of various influential and phenomenally-regarded anime productions such as K-ON!, Tamako Love Story and Koe no Katachi? Or the studio she works in, Kyoto Animation, which is widely considered to be an animation powerhouse in the industry, and has more female staff than male?

                  Hell, there are prominent female figures that shaped the industry as we know it today such as Rumiko Takanashi and the women who basically made up CLAMP. Cardcaptor Sakura, Code Geass, Urusei Yatsura, Inuyasha, do those titles ring a bell?

                  5 votes
            3. [4]
              Randomacts Link Parent
              A few gonewild people got banned for being too petite from what I heard. I haven't been able to confirm that but if that is true that is even more damning for reddit going too far. It would give a...

              A few gonewild people got banned for being too petite from what I heard. I haven't been able to confirm that but if that is true that is even more damning for reddit going too far. It would give a whole racial group of women body image issues if companies did that.

              I know that is a bit off topic but I brought this up because you mentioned gonewild. I don't frequent gonewild however so it isn't like I have a first hand account of it.

              1 vote
              1. [2]
                that_knave Link Parent
                There is one instance I can think of that I read about in subredditdrama or some such. It was about a young woman who was posting nudes and completely deleted her Reddit account and posts because...

                There is one instance I can think of that I read about in subredditdrama or some such. It was about a young woman who was posting nudes and completely deleted her Reddit account and posts because the mods of one of the GW subs read a post where she had mentioned 'homework' and 'graduating soon' and thought she might be a minor. They wanted more proof she wasn't and she felt uncomfortable and dipped.

                6 votes
                1. Randomacts Link Parent
                  That might be the time that I'm thinking of. We would prob have to post over on reddit to dig up that story but hopefully I'm just mistaken and it is just along the lines of what you said.

                  That might be the time that I'm thinking of. We would prob have to post over on reddit to dig up that story but hopefully I'm just mistaken and it is just along the lines of what you said.

              2. gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                I'd like to see more about that, but it's possible the mods didn't believe they were 18? That wouldn't be reddit specifically though, just the moderators of /r/gonewild or the related subreddits.

                I'd like to see more about that, but it's possible the mods didn't believe they were 18? That wouldn't be reddit specifically though, just the moderators of /r/gonewild or the related subreddits.

                2 votes
        2. [9]
          Randomacts (edited ) Link Parent
          SFW lolis isn't child porn and even loli hentai isn't. I don't think anyone is defending keeping loli hentai up but banning people for what is basically the same as a screenshot from an anime is...

          SFW lolis isn't child porn and even loli hentai isn't.

          I don't think anyone is defending keeping loli hentai up but banning people for what is basically the same as a screenshot from an anime is outlandish.

          Edit: And anyone that thinks that Holo's image is sexually suggest says more about that person and the admins than anything else.

          15 votes
          1. [8]
            gyrozeppeli Link Parent
            It doesn't have to be literal child porn in order for it to be considered inappropriate. It's still sexually suggestive (i.e. I would never have that picture open at work or anywhere in public)...

            It doesn't have to be literal child porn in order for it to be considered inappropriate. It's still sexually suggestive (i.e. I would never have that picture open at work or anywhere in public) and one could argue that it looks like the person is under 18. I certainly think so.

            4 votes
            1. [7]
              Randomacts Link Parent
              Like I said in my edit, if you think that image is sexually suggestive it says a whole lot more about you than anything else as it isn't. I have done professional image moderation for platforms...

              Like I said in my edit, if you think that image is sexually suggestive it says a whole lot more about you than anything else as it isn't.

              I have done professional image moderation for platforms like pinterest and I have never seen guidelines that would mark that image even as 'racy'.

              8 votes
              1. [6]
                gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                Under what context would you solely be looking at someone in a bikini? If it comes up in your feed [of a real person who posted about themselves at the beach or whatever] in say, facebook, that's...

                Under what context would you solely be looking at someone in a bikini? If it comes up in your feed [of a real person who posted about themselves at the beach or whatever] in say, facebook, that's understandable, but malingering on that? Specifically sharing that? Upvoting pictures of that?

                4 votes
                1. [5]
                  Randomacts Link Parent
                  In places that don't have a puritan background that isn't rare. The picture is intended to be cute and people are upvoting her pouty face. Americans have a weird fascination with everything being...

                  In places that don't have a puritan background that isn't rare. The picture is intended to be cute and people are upvoting her pouty face.

                  Americans have a weird fascination with everything being sexualized and then burning down everything. Yes I am aware that Reddit is an American company and that kind of explains this but that doesn't make it any less silly.

                  13 votes
                  1. [4]
                    gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                    This would be the same in europe or other places. Americans do indeed care about sexualization, more than they should, but it's not that bad. Sexualizing people who look under 18 is where people...

                    In places that don't have a puritan background that isn't rare.

                    This would be the same in europe or other places. Americans do indeed care about sexualization, more than they should, but it's not that bad. Sexualizing people who look under 18 is where people draw the line.

                    5 votes
                    1. [3]
                      Randomacts Link Parent
                      The thing is you are the one that is sexualizing this picture. I know that is hard to wrap your head around and even if you do it won't change anything but it is the case. I know for one in the UK...

                      The thing is you are the one that is sexualizing this picture. I know that is hard to wrap your head around and even if you do it won't change anything but it is the case.

                      I know for one in the UK they go pretty hard once a celeb turns 16 but that is a topic for another time.

                      3 votes
                      1. [2]
                        gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                        No, I'm discussing why this picture could be seen that way. Regular, normal people don't share or comment on or upvote pictures of minors in bikinis. I don't understand how you don't understand...

                        No, I'm discussing why this picture could be seen that way. Regular, normal people don't share or comment on or upvote pictures of minors in bikinis. I don't understand how you don't understand that this is not regular behavior among people.

                        Sexualizing underage celebrities is also a big problem, and a different problem.

                        6 votes
                        1. Randomacts Link Parent
                          I'm trying to find more on that gonewild issue and google isn't being super helpful. Hopefully someone can shed some light on that as I know that it happened I just don't have the details of it...

                          I'm trying to find more on that gonewild issue and google isn't being super helpful. Hopefully someone can shed some light on that as I know that it happened I just don't have the details of it because I heard it second hand.

                          1 vote
      3. [11]
        gyrozeppeli (edited ) Link Parent
        I can't tell because the linked image is censored, so I have no idea what it originally looked like. Reading the comments in the linked threads confirmed what I thought though, people keep on...

        I can't tell because the linked image is censored, so I have no idea what it originally looked like.

        Reading the comments in the linked threads confirmed what I thought though, people keep on using the ridiculous "well canonically this character is over 18" argument.

        I understand the appeal of cuteness and anime but recall that you're looking at a picture of a young looking girl in a bikini with floating hearts. One could argue that girl looks under 18.

        3 votes
        1. [10]
          Randomacts Link Parent
          Here you go. https://i.imgur.com/ZKKF4nc.png I wouldn't consider this lewd in any stretch of the imagination and holo even got unbanned after the admins finally took the 10 seconds to look at it...

          Here you go. https://i.imgur.com/ZKKF4nc.png

          I wouldn't consider this lewd in any stretch of the imagination and holo even got unbanned after the admins finally took the 10 seconds to look at it after people blew up over it.

          6 votes
          1. [5]
            gyrozeppeli Link Parent
            It is lewd. I would never have this open at work or any public/social setting, same with a real human being. On second glance it doesn't appear like they're under 18 but it's pretty damn close. If...

            It is lewd. I would never have this open at work or any public/social setting, same with a real human being. On second glance it doesn't appear like they're under 18 but it's pretty damn close. If someone thought that person was under 18 then it's totally justifiable.

            5 votes
            1. [4]
              little_bowser Link Parent
              For context the character in /u/Randomacts image is 16 years old. She is the titular character of the anime Kaguya-sama: Love Is War which is a rom com that is currently airing.

              For context the character in /u/Randomacts image is 16 years old. She is the titular character of the anime Kaguya-sama: Love Is War which is a rom com that is currently airing.

              4 votes
              1. [3]
                gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                So even canonically (a dumb argument) she's not even 18. I think one should have a good hard look at themselves in the mirror if they share and upvote images of 16yo girls in bikinis.

                So even canonically (a dumb argument) she's not even 18. I think one should have a good hard look at themselves in the mirror if they share and upvote images of 16yo girls in bikinis.

                5 votes
                1. [2]
                  NaraVara Link Parent
                  An 18 year old being into a 16 year old in a bikini is not that weird. An 18 year old being into a cartoon of any "age" honestly seems weirder to me than an 18 year old being into a real-life 16...

                  An 18 year old being into a 16 year old in a bikini is not that weird. An 18 year old being into a cartoon of any "age" honestly seems weirder to me than an 18 year old being into a real-life 16 year old. But both of those are moot, because the content is what matters, not whatever my personal feelings are about the consumers of the content.

                  And if we're talking about weirdness as our standard for banning people, investing a ton of emotional energy in what kinds of cartoons other people want to watch doesn't strike me as extremely "normal" either.

                  5 votes
                  1. gyrozeppeli Link Parent
                    No it isn't, but that's not that we're discussing here. Websites hosting content that depicts minors in a way that could be seen as sexually suggestive is problematic. Strawman argument–replying...

                    An 18 year old being into a 16 year old in a bikini is not that weird.

                    No it isn't, but that's not that we're discussing here. Websites hosting content that depicts minors in a way that could be seen as sexually suggestive is problematic.

                    investing a ton of emotional energy in what kinds of cartoons other people want to watch doesn't strike me as extremely "normal" either

                    Strawman argument–replying to a few comments on a forum about a subject isn't "investing a ton of emotional energy". It's called discussing a topic, and my opinion is that displaying minors in a lewd context or manner is not acceptable.

                    3 votes
          2. [4]
            Kirisame Link Parent
            After taking a look myself, I noted two things about my own reaction. First, I don't think something like this is really worth censoring; given no context, I think it'd be fair enough to assume...

            After taking a look myself, I noted two things about my own reaction.

            First, I don't think something like this is really worth censoring; given no context, I think it'd be fair enough to assume this fictional character is of legal age anyway.

            Second, despite my own feelings, I wouldn't want to be caught looking at images like this in public -- but I'd feel the same if she were obviously older, too, so I'm not sure how meaningful that is.

            2 votes
            1. [3]
              Randomacts Link Parent
              I don't look at anime stuff lewd or not in public. Honestly I tend to stick to text based only communication while out in public as I don't want people to judge me for looking at something that...

              I don't look at anime stuff lewd or not in public. Honestly I tend to stick to text based only communication while out in public as I don't want people to judge me for looking at something that looks like violence from a video game or really anything.

              1 vote
              1. [2]
                Kirisame Link Parent
                Interesting. I don't shy away from viewing (non ultra-gory, anyway) violent content from videogames, anime, movies, comics, or other media in public; in America, I don't think the stigma against...

                Interesting. I don't shy away from viewing (non ultra-gory, anyway) violent content from videogames, anime, movies, comics, or other media in public; in America, I don't think the stigma against violence or "weeb stuff" is anywhere near the stigma against anything sexual, so I don't worry about it.

                1. Randomacts Link Parent
                  I'm just more comfortable with just having text on the screen I'm highly visible. If I have a reasonable amount of privacy I'll browse normally but otherwise I stick to text based like I said.

                  I'm just more comfortable with just having text on the screen I'm highly visible. If I have a reasonable amount of privacy I'll browse normally but otherwise I stick to text based like I said.

      4. [9]
        dubteedub Link Parent
        Would you feel the same way if it was a picture of an actual little girl? How is this any different than the old /r/jailbait pictures?

        The main issue here is that people are getting banned for extremely tame pictures. The picture in question isn't lewd in any fashion.

        Would you feel the same way if it was a picture of an actual little girl?

        How is this any different than the old /r/jailbait pictures?

        3 votes
        1. [8]
          Randomacts Link Parent
          You are having issues separating reality and fiction. They aren't the same thing and not even the law believes that.

          You are having issues separating reality and fiction. They aren't the same thing and not even the law believes that.

          14 votes
          1. [7]
            dubteedub (edited ) Link Parent
            These pictures still portray children as sex objects. That is disgusting behavior and arguably contributes to sexual abuse of children. Why are you trying so hard to justify pedophilia just...

            These pictures still portray children as sex objects. That is disgusting behavior and arguably contributes to sexual abuse of children.

            Why are you trying so hard to justify pedophilia just because it is drawn?

            They aren't the same thing and not even the law believes that.

            It is currently illegal in Australia, Canada, the Philippines, South Africa, South Korea and the United Kingdom. There are also multiple US federal laws against it.

            A 2003 federal obscenity law makes it illegal to possess child pornography drawings, and a federal appeals court in 2008 upheld the nation’s first conviction under that law.

            The question of the legality of child sex comics has been settled in federal court, where First Amendment arguments have consistently failed.

            In 2005, Dwight Whorley of Virginia became the first person convicted under the 2003 obscenity law. A federal appeals court upheld the conviction in 2008.

            Whorley used a state computer to download Japanese anime cartoons showing young girls having sex with men. Whorley, who spent time in jail for previous child pornography charges, got 20 years in prison.

            In another noted case, an Iowa comic book collector, Christopher Handley, was arrested after Japanese manga comic books showing children being sexually abused were mailed to him.

            Handley was convicted in 2010 under the federal obscenity law after unsuccessfully challenging it during his trial. He did not have a criminal record and was given six months in prison. It was the first time someone was sent to prison for owning comic books, according to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund.

            6 votes
            1. [6]
              Randomacts Link Parent
              Why are you sexualizing an image that isn't sexual? This is like how politicians that are anti gay and end up being gay themselves. Anyways hentai laws in the US are by state by federally loli...

              Why are you sexualizing an image that isn't sexual? This is like how politicians that are anti gay and end up being gay themselves.

              Anyways hentai laws in the US are by state by federally loli hentai is legal. That doesn't stop a state from arresting people as those case that you cherry picked but it isn't as dry cut as you want to think. I know that you have an agenda here that you are trying to push but it is only making you look desperate.

              4 votes
              1. [5]
                dubteedub Link Parent
                That is the same argument used by the folks that supported the /r/jailbait subreddits that showed clothed pictures of young girls. It is extremely clear why people seek out these images and it is...

                Why are you sexualizing an image that isn't sexual?

                That is the same argument used by the folks that supported the /r/jailbait subreddits that showed clothed pictures of young girls. It is extremely clear why people seek out these images and it is not to just see a picture of a little girl.

                Anyways hentai laws in the US are by state by federally loli hentai is legal.

                The article I linked above says it is a federal obscenity law.

                I know that you have an agenda here that you are trying to push but it is only making you look desperate.

                My only agenda is that I think pedos are fucking gross.

                5 votes
                1. [4]
                  Randomacts Link Parent
                  Don't compare weebs to pedos. Target that hatred towards something more useful in life. You also just aggressively tagged this post. That isn't cool. Also it is enforced by state anyways....

                  Don't compare weebs to pedos. Target that hatred towards something more useful in life.

                  You also just aggressively tagged this post. That isn't cool.

                  Also it is enforced by state anyways. https://i.imgur.com/eC8YW6p.png

                  3 votes
                  1. [3]
                    dubteedub Link Parent
                    I am not comparing all anime lovers to pedos. Just those that look at loli and other depictions of underage girls. Again it is extremely clear why people seek out these images. The post was not...

                    Don't compare weebs to pedos.

                    I am not comparing all anime lovers to pedos. Just those that look at loli and other depictions of underage girls. Again it is extremely clear why people seek out these images.

                    You also just aggressively tagged this post

                    The post was not tagged at all and I added relevant tags to the post. How are these tags aggressive?

                    4 votes
                    1. [2]
                      hungariantoast Link Parent
                      I think the user is conflating the loli and child porn tags to mean that you think lolicon is child pornography, which, spoiler, it isn't, but I think the child porn tag is still appropriate, as...

                      I think the user is conflating the loli and child porn tags to mean that you think lolicon is child pornography, which, spoiler, it isn't, but I think the child porn tag is still appropriate, as this rule implementation is dealing with child pornography and lolicon as well as other things.

                      4 votes
                      1. dubteedub Link Parent
                        Yup, that is why i added both tags.

                        this rule implementation is dealing with child pornography and lolicon as well as other things.

                        Yup, that is why i added both tags.

                        3 votes
    2. [10]
      grizzchan Link Parent
      I personally don't have any issue with either loli porn being banned or not. But there are two massive issues with their current stance. First of all is their extremly prude definition of...

      I personally don't have any issue with either loli porn being banned or not. But there are two massive issues with their current stance.

      First of all is their extremly prude definition of "sexually suggestive". I was banned for this, although the admins have come back from this and unbanned me. Holo was banned for a bikini pic. It wasn't anything skimpy, just a regular bikini and even though he was unbanned, in this instance it was out of leniency and not because they came back from their decision. This is imo way beyond what should reasonably be considered "sexually suggestive".

      Second is their double standard regarding their definition of a minor. The most common way of determining whether a character is a loli/shota is by taking a look at them and having a guess based solely on their appearance. In other words, you go by the characters apparent age. The "1000 years old" vampire/dragon/whatever won't hold up and we all know it's a bullshit excuse anyway. However what Reddit does in addition to this is to also consider the character's canonical age. This practice makes sense for real people, but for fictional, drawn, clearly not real charactes it's absolutely asinine.

      These two problems underline what is wrong with Reddit's current policy on sexualized loli/shota content and it's absolutely crushing anime communities.

      14 votes
      1. [2]
        Randomacts Link Parent
        Your Konosuba picture is even more blatant in Reddit being insane. Holo's picture for some reason is hard to get people to understand that it isn't sexualized but someone would have to be insane...

        Your Konosuba picture is even more blatant in Reddit being insane. Holo's picture for some reason is hard to get people to understand that it isn't sexualized but someone would have to be insane to think that your picture would even remotely have a chance of being lewd.

        I don't know what the future of anime communities are but reddit isn't the place anymore. I haven't dug too deeply into this website's rules but I doubt here would work perfectly either. Perhaps aniholo will take off and that could be a good option but the uneasiness is being felt across the whole anime community and it is ripping us apart.

        10 votes
        1. grizzchan Link Parent
          I feel like it's mostly an America vs Europe kind of thing. Americans tend to call it sexualized when just a bit too much skin is exposed while in Europe sometimes not even full nudity is...

          I feel like it's mostly an America vs Europe kind of thing. Americans tend to call it sexualized when just a bit too much skin is exposed while in Europe sometimes not even full nudity is considered to be sexualization.

          4 votes
      2. [7]
        gyrozeppeli Link Parent
        I think context is the issue here. Ordinarily pictures of 16yos/minors in bikinis aren't inherently sexually suggestive, sure, but sharing, upvoting, and discussing about them does feel quite...

        I think context is the issue here. Ordinarily pictures of 16yos/minors in bikinis aren't inherently sexually suggestive, sure, but sharing, upvoting, and discussing about them does feel quite wrong to me.

        Also it's not like 1 person is deciding if something is sexually suggestive, so what's already nebulous is compounded by different people having different standards of what is acceptable or not.

        This practice makes sense for real people, but for fictional, drawn, clearly not real charactes it's absolutely asinine.

        In what way? If a person is canonically underage, they are underage. Unless you're okay with real porn of a 14 year old/minor human with a 26 year old's body and face, too. Just because it's drawn/animated doesn't change that it would be completely messed up.

        5 votes
        1. [2]
          NaraVara Link Parent
          None of those are wrong in themselves. It's the content of the discussion that's wrong. If you're in a forum about people learning how to draw and all the discussion revolves around inking,...

          but sharing, upvoting, and discussing about them does feel quite wrong to me.

          None of those are wrong in themselves. It's the content of the discussion that's wrong. If you're in a forum about people learning how to draw and all the discussion revolves around inking, coloring, and anatomy nothing about that seems wrong.

          This is kind of the problem with applying subjective standards in draconian fashion. Some people will immediately jump to the most offensive possible interpretation of whatever they see but you can't impose restrictions from that mind-set.

          5 votes
          1. gyrozeppeli Link Parent
            We can create certain hypotheticals where the situation is okay, but the matter of fact here is that this content is largely not being shared in say, a learning how to draw forum.

            We can create certain hypotheticals where the situation is okay, but the matter of fact here is that this content is largely not being shared in say, a learning how to draw forum.

            2 votes
        2. [4]
          grizzchan Link Parent
          Yet in the same sense you're not OK with a (fictional) 26 year old with a 14 year old body and face. That is just plain hypocritical.

          In what way? If a person is canonically underage, they are underage. Unless you're okay with real porn of a 14 year old/minor human with a 26 year old's body and face, too. Just because it's drawn/animated doesn't change that it would be completely messed up.

          Yet in the same sense you're not OK with a (fictional) 26 year old with a 14 year old body and face. That is just plain hypocritical.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            gyrozeppeli (edited ) Link Parent
            Fictional or not, finding a 14yos body (and face) attractive is completely repulsive. That's actually pedophile territory, unless the liker is also roughly 14yo. Excuse me, but wtf? Allow me to...

            Fictional or not, finding a 14yos body (and face) attractive is completely repulsive. That's actually pedophile territory, unless the liker is also roughly 14yo. Excuse me, but wtf?

            Allow me to spell it out. If you're legally an adult (18) or higher, then liking a minor is messed up. It gets muddy with 18yos liking 17yos or 16yos, but that's why some states have romeo and juliet laws. But if you're 19+, 20+, or even older, then it's significantly more fucked up.

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              sunnyrunny789 Link Parent
              Allow me to paste this comment I came across on one of the related topics on r/OutOfTheLoop - I think it gets to the heart of what the other commenter was saying about an adult in a minor's body....

              Fictional or not, finding a 14yos body (and face) attractive is completely repulsive. That's actually pedophile territory, unless the liker is also roughly 14yo. Excuse me, but wtf?

              Allow me to paste this comment I came across on one of the related topics on r/OutOfTheLoop - I think it gets to the heart of what the other commenter was saying about an adult in a minor's body.

              "I'm 30 something and I still get carded and asked where I go to high school because I am under 5 foot tall. The bodyshaming for people who look young and are sexually active is real just because I don't fit into an expected mold.

              "People never consider the ramifications for real people and what it says to me is that I should be ashamed of myself for not happening to be taller/bustier and anyone who found me attractive in the past ten years is a bad person.

              "You should see some of the filthy looks that have been given to previous boyfriends...."

              9 votes
              1. gyrozeppeli (edited ) Link Parent
                That's a real issue as well, I totally agree. However, I don't think the person themself is being shamed here, rather the person attracted to them. (Not what I personally believe mind you) It's...

                That's a real issue as well, I totally agree. However,

                The bodyshaming for people who look young and are sexually active is real just because I don't fit into an expected mold.

                I don't think the person themself is being shamed here, rather the person attracted to them. (Not what I personally believe mind you)

                It's one thing to be physically and mentally a certain age, but look young, due to nothing but genetics and random chance. And keep in mind that even though they might look younger, their body would still be sexually mature due to puberty (aka different from a minor). Furthermore, even if one wanted to "fix" this, there's no way to prevent it from occurring other than eugenics.

                I think this is distinct enough from the way people are purposefully drawn in an infantile manner/minors are sexualized in mangas that it's a separate issue entirely. And it would be weird if their partner was only attracted to them due to their younger-than-18-looking appearance, wouldn't you agree? The issue here is people automatically assuming things and being judgemental.

                1 vote
    3. [4]
      implosio Link Parent
      You say that, but have you even looked at Twitter? Twitter hosts far more loli art than Reddit ever did and I don't see Twitter or their advertisers freaking out.

      Reddit also clearly has gone corporate and no advertiser in the US wants to be on a site that possibly hosts minors or people who look like minors drawn in lewd ways.

      You say that, but have you even looked at Twitter? Twitter hosts far more loli art than Reddit ever did and I don't see Twitter or their advertisers freaking out.

      1 vote
      1. [3]
        gyrozeppeli Link Parent
        Whataboutism isn't a valid argument. I don't think a comparison to twitter is viable because twitter is in its own league in terms of usage and sheer volume of content posted. There also aren't...

        Whataboutism isn't a valid argument. I don't think a comparison to twitter is viable because twitter is in its own league in terms of usage and sheer volume of content posted. There also aren't curated centers of it specifically, you would have to follow specific people, unlike reddit's system which just stores it all in one spot and breaks out into the rest of the site on /r/all sometimes.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          implosio Link Parent
          You claimed that no advertiser could possibly be on a site like that and I gave a counterexample. If the problem is just that it leaks out into /r/all, why couldn't reddit just ban these...

          You claimed that no advertiser could possibly be on a site like that and I gave a counterexample.

          If the problem is just that it leaks out into /r/all, why couldn't reddit just ban these subreddits from being on /r/all.

          1. gyrozeppeli Link Parent
            Fine, I can agree with that. And reddit does ban subs and quarantine them. watchpeopledie is quarantined for example, and subs like creepshots and jailbait have been banned over the years. Just...

            Fine, I can agree with that. And reddit does ban subs and quarantine them. watchpeopledie is quarantined for example, and subs like creepshots and jailbait have been banned over the years. Just because it isn't instant doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

  2. [2]
    alyaza Link
    some meta points, but: i do very much hope that with the opening of public viewership, people are not deterred by the fact that this thread is basically a gigantic debate on whether or not lolicon...

    some meta points, but:

    1. i do very much hope that with the opening of public viewership, people are not deterred by the fact that this thread is basically a gigantic debate on whether or not lolicon is child porn or if it's ethical to draw or consume art that looks like or is lolicon, because i know that there are quite a few people who tend to be offput by those sorts of debates raging inside a community and to be honest, there's really no good way to "spin" these kinds of discussions favorably to a lot of people, even if they might raise valid points.
    2. i really think that people should try to avoid bringing over what is basically reddit drama in the future, because for one thing reddit drama is fucking bullshit and nobody likes it, but for another thing, who cares what is happening in most reddit communities and if you do care, why should it matter here? @that_knave made the point upthread that these sorts of discussions are a lot like fluff and that complaining about reddit here is kinda fucking stupid, and i'd agree with that assessment. i think it's reasonable for people to talk about reddit on here and in some circumstances even to talk about reddit drama if it's particularly important and even if it has no bearing on what goes on here--but the way it's been done here screams of pointless bickering and fluffy content, and should probably be a model for what to avoid if people are gonna do this in the future.

    that's just my two, meta cents though.

    10 votes
    1. dubteedub Link Parent
      Thank you for saying this. This topic / post is pretty embarrassing in my opinion and really should not at all be representative of Tildes as a whole. I would also just point out that most of the...

      Thank you for saying this. This topic / post is pretty embarrassing in my opinion and really should not at all be representative of Tildes as a whole.

      I would also just point out that most of the users here arguing in favor of loli porn and what not are mostly day one accounts that seem to be coming directly from this subreddit in question and all seem to be trying to drive this conversation in a certain direction.

      6 votes
  3. [4]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. hungariantoast Link Parent
      It's acceptable to post user-created art ("original content") on Tildes and users have posted their art here with great success before. So, until we get our own rules disallowing certain forms of...

      Do we want either of those on Tildes? Certainly not

      It's acceptable to post user-created art ("original content") on Tildes and users have posted their art here with great success before. So, until we get our own rules disallowing certain forms of art like lolicon, then it's not expressly said that it isn't allowed to be posted here.

      Which, to be honest, posting loli here would be a stretch, but my point is, user created art, shared in the form of images, has been successfully posted and discussed on Tildes before, so it isn't correct to say we don't want user created art.

      When a user eventually posts loli or something similarly suggestive, I'm sure we'll have a very fun conversation about it in the topic's comments or on ~tildes.

      EDIT: Thinking about it more, depending on the jurisdiction that Tildes falls under, the website hosting or linking to content such as lolicon might be illegal for Spectria/Deimos/Tildes, but I know fuck all about the laws on this stuff other than it's on a state by state basis in the United States. Is it a province by province basis in Canada?

      10 votes
    2. that_knave Link Parent
      I get where you're coming from, but I don't think the thread should be locked. At the very least we should be talking about how this became another avenue for Reddit users to go somewhere else and...

      I get where you're coming from, but I don't think the thread should be locked. At the very least we should be talking about how this became another avenue for Reddit users to go somewhere else and complain about mods and admins.

      I'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to discuss these things, but is it really the best use of this site and our time to bicker about Reddit drama on another site? My understanding was that Tildes would try to be a place for open discussion and get away from fluff and lack of substance. If people want to complain about Reddit they should really do it over there and not bring their issues here because they feel like they're no longer wanted.

      If the goal is to talk about broader ideas of censorship and technology then that's one thing, coming here to cry about how you got banned from a privately owned website really isn't the best use of your time or anyone else's for that matter. What's that conversation going to accomplish? Is Reddit going to see the 'error of their ways'? Are they going to beg you to come back? My guess would be: no.

      8 votes
    3. Octofox Link Parent
      I want none of it on tildes because its fluff that is unlikely to ever generate useful conversation.

      Do we want either of those on Tildes?

      I want none of it on tildes because its fluff that is unlikely to ever generate useful conversation.

      4 votes
  4. Liru Link
    I moderate several subreddits that are being hit by this rule, such as /r/rule34 and /r/hentai. I think the worst part about this is that reddit admins absolutely refuse to communicate with us...

    I moderate several subreddits that are being hit by this rule, such as /r/rule34 and /r/hentai. I think the worst part about this is that reddit admins absolutely refuse to communicate with us regarding what is and isn't acceptable to post, and frankly don't seem to care. We got a message threatening a subreddit with closure if we host loli content and telling us to update our rules when the rules stating that have been in place for nine years, since the day it was created.

    We've seen inconsistencies in our mod logs regarding what was removed, as well as removing things that should be allowed under this new push (think "adult characters wearing school uniforms/swimsuits").

    A few of us have sent messages to the admins for clarification, but none of us got a response.

    The absolute worst part is that everyone is flying blind here; many of us are trying to piece together some arbitrary ruleset based on whispers regarding what pictures got others banned, and rumours in other threads/chat rooms.

    14 votes
  5. Deimos (edited ) Link
    This thread is getting pretty weird/heated, and was only tangentially on-topic for Tildes at best in the first place (since we don't do fluff-like images, whether they're porn or not). It's also...

    This thread is getting pretty weird/heated, and was only tangentially on-topic for Tildes at best in the first place (since we don't do fluff-like images, whether they're porn or not). It's also yet another one of those subjects where everyone has already decided which side they're on, and nobody's looking to have their mind changed.

    I'm going to lock it now. This same discussion is taking place in about 1000 different threads on Reddit, so I'm sure you can find somewhere to continue arguing about it if you really want to.

    10 votes
  6. saiyanprideparade Link
    Depicting minors like that is disgusting, this is one of the few good things reddit has actually done.

    Depicting minors like that is disgusting, this is one of the few good things reddit has actually done.

    6 votes
  7. [3]
    pewpewpewpew Link
    Reddit is a business, they want to attract more advertisers; so they give content creators the boot. Yeah you should be pissed about it, but instead of just complaining about it; communities like...

    Reddit is a business, they want to attract more advertisers; so they give content creators the boot. Yeah you should be pissed about it, but instead of just complaining about it; communities like this one should be encouraging those content creators to come here. Build a place that they can share their art, and talk about their interests.

    I for one have never been into anime or any of that stuff, just not my cup of tea; but I have seen subreddits that I liked, and I contributed to; get shut down in the name of being "advertiser friendly" meaning whatever the admins of the site do not like.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      gyrozeppeli Link Parent
      This isn't about content creators, nor merely about being into anime. It's about lewd or inappropriate pictures of people who look under 18. People who make that sort of stuff shouldn't come here,...

      This isn't about content creators, nor merely about being into anime. It's about lewd or inappropriate pictures of people who look under 18. People who make that sort of stuff shouldn't come here, preferably. Pawoo.net, pixiv.net and other japanese or japanese-friendly communities already exist.

      I understand Reddit has all sorts of issues going on with its corporate changes but let's not conflate things like not liking sexually suggestive pictures of minors with other corporate changes.

      1. pewpewpewpew Link Parent
        From what I understand people were getting their content banned even if it was not sexually suggestive. Personally, even if it is a drawn character; I would still count that as child porn. I was...

        From what I understand people were getting their content banned even if it was not sexually suggestive. Personally, even if it is a drawn character; I would still count that as child porn. I was not suggesting any of that should be allowed here, just the stuff that's not sexually suggestive or worse.

        1 vote
  8. [5]
    Jealot Link
    I don't see how anyone can support this ban when /r/fauxbait is allowed to stay.

    I don't see how anyone can support this ban when /r/fauxbait is allowed to stay.

    1. [3]
      gyrozeppeli Link Parent
      You can't justify one thing through reddit's inconsistency. That's whataboutism. If someone is against sexualization of minors then they'd be against both. I'm not trying to defend reddit here but...

      You can't justify one thing through reddit's inconsistency. That's whataboutism. If someone is against sexualization of minors then they'd be against both. I'm not trying to defend reddit here but sometimes people here think they're completely omniscient about every sub ever. I've heard of a bunch of the anime subs and I've never heard of this subreddit. If we're actually being fair, reddit has also banned creepshots, jailbait, and other similar subreddits over the years.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Jealot Link Parent
        Just saying that it's hypocritical to ban anime girls that look underage but be fine with real girls that look underage. But fair enough, it is whataboutism.

        Just saying that it's hypocritical to ban anime girls that look underage but be fine with real girls that look underage. But fair enough, it is whataboutism.

        1 vote
        1. gyrozeppeli Link Parent
          People would agree with both stances. Hence reddit banning subreddits that had IRL people who looked or were underage–i.e. creepshots, jailbait, and others. As I noted in a different response, I...

          People would agree with both stances. Hence reddit banning subreddits that had IRL people who looked or were underage–i.e. creepshots, jailbait, and others. As I noted in a different response, I bet reddit makes sure the GW subs verify their content posters to make sure its 18+.

          1 vote
    2. dubteedub Link Parent
      Ban both of them? The admins may not be aware of that sub since they absolutely banned /r/jailbait and its successors back in the day.

      Ban both of them? The admins may not be aware of that sub since they absolutely banned /r/jailbait and its successors back in the day.

      4 votes
  9. little_bowser Link
    See the link I posted. From the post: Discuss.

    See the link I posted. From the post:

    There's been a recent change in the rules and how they're enforced by the Reddit admins, the gist being Reddit prohibits any sexual or suggestive content involving minors or someone who appears to be a minor. and including fantasy content (e.g. stories, “loli”/anime cartoons). It goes on to say, this can in some cases include depictions of minors that are fully clothed and not engaged in overtly sexual acts.

    Discuss.