In the process of re-reading WoT I’ve stumbled across this series of blogposts wherein the writer ( a first-time reader) shares with us their first reactions, thoughts, and theories chapter by...
Epic fantasy enthusiast Sylas K Barrett reads Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time for the first time.
In the process of re-reading WoT I’ve stumbled across this series of blogposts wherein the writer ( a first-time reader) shares with us their first reactions, thoughts, and theories chapter by chapter. It’s a pretty fun read if you’ve read the series and probably a decent form of kinship for someone else reading the series for the first time and seeking to avoid future spoilers.
It's less granular, but there's also Big Read: The Wheel of Time for anyone who's interested in another first-time reader's impressions as they go through the series. Starting with book 2 (The...
It's less granular, but there's also Big Read: The Wheel of Time for anyone who's interested in another first-time reader's impressions as they go through the series.
Starting with book 2 (The Great Hunt), they break the books into 3-7 parts and summarize their thoughts on each. They note at the top of each entry which chapters they'll be covering so there's no danger of spoilers (as far as I know). I enjoyed following along when I was trying to get back into reading the series a few years ago.
Awesome! Yea I read the books as a teen (well after the release of the first books) and remember being frustrated with not having anyone to talk about the books with and I was nervous of reading...
Awesome! Yea I read the books as a teen (well after the release of the first books) and remember being frustrated with not having anyone to talk about the books with and I was nervous of reading any online discussion in case of spoilers.
Another first time reader resource: I haven't used it much but there's also /r/wheeloftime where you can ask questions and flair your post with the book you've read up to and at first glance people are pretty good about restricting their answers based on that information.
I really liked the TV series on Amazon, and I'm about halfway through the first book now. I'm planning to finish at least this book, but can you let me know if the series gets better? I thought...
I really liked the TV series on Amazon, and I'm about halfway through the first book now.
I'm planning to finish at least this book, but can you let me know if the series gets better? I thought the show was refreshing because it broke some implicit fantasy defaults with an ensemble cast, slightly older protagonists, and a racially diverse world. In contrast, the first book seems a little bland and predictable so far. I've heard that it gets a lot better, but I was wondering if you have any insight?
The books do indeed get a lot better. Books 1-3 are somewhat formulaic and centered on the classic 'party of adventurers on the way to do something' trope but in book 4 the series really finds...
The books do indeed get a lot better. Books 1-3 are somewhat formulaic and centered on the classic 'party of adventurers on the way to do something' trope but in book 4 the series really finds it's footing and you get exposed to some of the larger world and story threads. I would try and get through book 4 before deciding to put it down, as I think that's when it truly hooked me.
Another thing that's often overlooked is that the books were all planned out from the start, and there is so much detail in the early (and later) books that's really easy to miss without additional context from the later books. So do your best to keep mental notes and by the end of book 4 you should be able to piece some things together.
I'm planning to finish at least this book, but can you let me know if the series gets better? I thought the show was refreshing because it broke some implicit fantasy defaults with an ensemble cast, slightly older protagonists, and a racially diverse world.
The books definitely show their age here, Jordan has deliberately gendered a lot of things in his universe that don't really need to be, which can be off-putting. But I think that's just a product of the early 90s and not an excuse to avoid the books. I also liked the show for what it was, but they do take some extreme liberties with the story and universe details to the point that it feels like it will be a new story entirely, and most readers were pretty upset with that decision.
Some of the gender stuff is - I think - an attempt to flip gender stereotypes to make a point. Some of it is just RJs southern gentleman type upbringing making itself obvious, though. For most...
Some of the gender stuff is - I think - an attempt to flip gender stereotypes to make a point. Some of it is just RJs southern gentleman type upbringing making itself obvious, though. For most people it's not egregious enough to make or break the series, and I think it helps to know that the author is trying something even when it's not totally successful.
Yeah I seem to recall when the show was airing that the showrunner was describing it as another turn of the wheel. The overall plot will be the sameish but chapter to chapter might be slightly...
they do take some extreme liberties with the story
Yeah I seem to recall when the show was airing that the showrunner was describing it as another turn of the wheel. The overall plot will be the sameish but chapter to chapter might be slightly different.
Honestly I think a lot of the changes probably needed to be made. The showrunner has talked a lot about how they wanted to make the show an ensemble cast from the start, much like the books are...
Honestly I think a lot of the changes probably needed to be made. The showrunner has talked a lot about how they wanted to make the show an ensemble cast from the start, much like the books are from 3 or 4 on to the end. But a lot of characters wouldn't have anything to do for huge sections of the show until their plot really got going. They also had a (shockingly - IMO) short season to cover a lot of book. There's going to have to be a lot of combining characters and getting to plot points in different ways if they wanted to tell a coherent story with the time and objectives that they had, and still have it feel like the Wheel of Time. I think they were (mostly) successful, but it's been obvious that a lot of the hardcore fans (I would have considered myself among those before the last few years) don't agree.
Yeah, the series starts with a lot of pretty familiar epic fantasy tropes and starts to move away from those over the next few books. The racially (and culturally) diverse world is very much a...
Yeah, the series starts with a lot of pretty familiar epic fantasy tropes and starts to move away from those over the next few books. The racially (and culturally) diverse world is very much a part of the core of the WoT setting and will come more to the forefront as the action moves away from Andor (where the Two Rivers is located) which is a bit more of the default "not-England" fantasy nation. There's also a very good argument to be made that even the Two Rivers isn't as default white as most readers assume. Skin color isn't always explicitly mentioned in the books, but there are a couple of instances where characters are surprised that Rand is as white as he is when he says he's from the Two Rivers.
The older protagonists are unique to the show. I think it was a good choice for the show, but it's not a thing in the books. They are all 18ish for most of the series and the books play a good bit on the "naive hick teenagers getting thrown in over their heads". The characters do mature a lot though, they don't stay that way.
Most people say that the series really comes into its own around the fourth book. The setting starts to show a lot more of it's unique flavor and you really get more into the ensemble cast and some of the political intrigue and geopolitics stuff that the series is known for.
I will, however, caution you that there are some odd gender and sexual politics in the series. I think that RJ was trying to actually make some really good observations about gender by flipping some things on their heads (a lot of power rests in the hands of women in the series, and RJ also likes to flip gender stereotypes - men like to gossip, women harassing men about their bodies, etc) but at times it can seem dated or a little cringy. In the end, Jordan was a white, military man from the South. I think he did his best but there are times where things get a little weird.
Ultimately, I think the books are worth reading. If you're a fairly fast reader then I would give it until maybe the end of book four and if you're still not feeling it you can probably drop it there. The setting winds up being very interesting and the portrayals of the costs of warfare on both a personal and national level are really well written. There are a lot of well written characters that I grew to love by the end of the series. It's a big investment but to me it was worth it.
Perhaps this comes from being surrounded by too many academics*, but I personally had the distinct feeling that the weirdness was not limited to specific portions, but rather, the entirety of...
... at times it can seem dated or a little cringy. In the end, Jordan was a white, military man from the South. I think he did his best but there are times where things get a little weird.
Perhaps this comes from being surrounded by too many academics*, but I personally had the distinct feeling that the weirdness was not limited to specific portions, but rather, the entirety of magic in The Wheel of Time was implicitly built around a conservative perspective on heterosexual sex. While it isn't necessarily bad, the feeling did make the descriptions at times seem a bit ridiculous, and I've always been a bit confused that this doesn't seem to be brought up more often.
The descriptions of the different experiences of saidin and saidar, for example, sound quite a bit like a conservative man trying to describe both sides of penetrative, vaginal intercourse. Women open themselves and "surrender" to saidar, they let it "fill them", "gently guiding" it; metaphors of budding flowers are used. Men "reach out" and "seize" saidin, feeding emotion into it, and while holding it must avoid being swept away. These are experiences that come as a coming of age, and are dangerous and traumatic if uneducated in the risks. While I can't find quick references on other descriptions of the accessing the One Power, I can recall there being some sense of almost unbearable ecstasy, and some sense of buildup, climax, and withdrawal. People can be severed from it, in which case they usually lose all meaning in their lives and are generally meek and depressed.
And, of course, the Dragonmount as the symbol of saidin is a giant phallic object, while maps of Tar Valon look oddly like a vulva.
(*)
I can remember once hearing about an argument that an author was enormously misogynist because he preferred hearths to stoves, and this was clearly because he preferred the phallic signification of chimneys as an expression of male power. That stoves of the time also had chimneys was apparently lost on the scholar, and the author had certainly never made any hint of seeing chimneys in that way.
I don't think these takes are wrong, but I think they are probably a bit overstated. There is definitely a strong gender binary presented, and there are differences between the genders presented...
I don't think these takes are wrong, but I think they are probably a bit overstated. There is definitely a strong gender binary presented, and there are differences between the genders presented as being inherent. There are also, however, a not insignificant number of characters that don't fit into that binary in a number of ways.
I wouldn't deny that there's a definite perspective about gender that doesn't really fit the modern understanding, and I could certainly see why some readers would be put off by that.
In the process of re-reading WoT I’ve stumbled across this series of blogposts wherein the writer ( a first-time reader) shares with us their first reactions, thoughts, and theories chapter by chapter. It’s a pretty fun read if you’ve read the series and probably a decent form of kinship for someone else reading the series for the first time and seeking to avoid future spoilers.
It's less granular, but there's also Big Read: The Wheel of Time for anyone who's interested in another first-time reader's impressions as they go through the series.
Starting with book 2 (The Great Hunt), they break the books into 3-7 parts and summarize their thoughts on each. They note at the top of each entry which chapters they'll be covering so there's no danger of spoilers (as far as I know). I enjoyed following along when I was trying to get back into reading the series a few years ago.
Awesome! Yea I read the books as a teen (well after the release of the first books) and remember being frustrated with not having anyone to talk about the books with and I was nervous of reading any online discussion in case of spoilers.
Another first time reader resource: I haven't used it much but there's also /r/wheeloftime where you can ask questions and flair your post with the book you've read up to and at first glance people are pretty good about restricting their answers based on that information.
I really liked the TV series on Amazon, and I'm about halfway through the first book now.
I'm planning to finish at least this book, but can you let me know if the series gets better? I thought the show was refreshing because it broke some implicit fantasy defaults with an ensemble cast, slightly older protagonists, and a racially diverse world. In contrast, the first book seems a little bland and predictable so far. I've heard that it gets a lot better, but I was wondering if you have any insight?
The books do indeed get a lot better. Books 1-3 are somewhat formulaic and centered on the classic 'party of adventurers on the way to do something' trope but in book 4 the series really finds it's footing and you get exposed to some of the larger world and story threads. I would try and get through book 4 before deciding to put it down, as I think that's when it truly hooked me.
Another thing that's often overlooked is that the books were all planned out from the start, and there is so much detail in the early (and later) books that's really easy to miss without additional context from the later books. So do your best to keep mental notes and by the end of book 4 you should be able to piece some things together.
The books definitely show their age here, Jordan has deliberately gendered a lot of things in his universe that don't really need to be, which can be off-putting. But I think that's just a product of the early 90s and not an excuse to avoid the books. I also liked the show for what it was, but they do take some extreme liberties with the story and universe details to the point that it feels like it will be a new story entirely, and most readers were pretty upset with that decision.
Some of the gender stuff is - I think - an attempt to flip gender stereotypes to make a point. Some of it is just RJs southern gentleman type upbringing making itself obvious, though. For most people it's not egregious enough to make or break the series, and I think it helps to know that the author is trying something even when it's not totally successful.
Yeah I seem to recall when the show was airing that the showrunner was describing it as another turn of the wheel. The overall plot will be the sameish but chapter to chapter might be slightly different.
Honestly I think a lot of the changes probably needed to be made. The showrunner has talked a lot about how they wanted to make the show an ensemble cast from the start, much like the books are from 3 or 4 on to the end. But a lot of characters wouldn't have anything to do for huge sections of the show until their plot really got going. They also had a (shockingly - IMO) short season to cover a lot of book. There's going to have to be a lot of combining characters and getting to plot points in different ways if they wanted to tell a coherent story with the time and objectives that they had, and still have it feel like the Wheel of Time. I think they were (mostly) successful, but it's been obvious that a lot of the hardcore fans (I would have considered myself among those before the last few years) don't agree.
Yeah, the series starts with a lot of pretty familiar epic fantasy tropes and starts to move away from those over the next few books. The racially (and culturally) diverse world is very much a part of the core of the WoT setting and will come more to the forefront as the action moves away from Andor (where the Two Rivers is located) which is a bit more of the default "not-England" fantasy nation. There's also a very good argument to be made that even the Two Rivers isn't as default white as most readers assume. Skin color isn't always explicitly mentioned in the books, but there are a couple of instances where characters are surprised that Rand is as white as he is when he says he's from the Two Rivers.
The older protagonists are unique to the show. I think it was a good choice for the show, but it's not a thing in the books. They are all 18ish for most of the series and the books play a good bit on the "naive hick teenagers getting thrown in over their heads". The characters do mature a lot though, they don't stay that way.
Most people say that the series really comes into its own around the fourth book. The setting starts to show a lot more of it's unique flavor and you really get more into the ensemble cast and some of the political intrigue and geopolitics stuff that the series is known for.
I will, however, caution you that there are some odd gender and sexual politics in the series. I think that RJ was trying to actually make some really good observations about gender by flipping some things on their heads (a lot of power rests in the hands of women in the series, and RJ also likes to flip gender stereotypes - men like to gossip, women harassing men about their bodies, etc) but at times it can seem dated or a little cringy. In the end, Jordan was a white, military man from the South. I think he did his best but there are times where things get a little weird.
Ultimately, I think the books are worth reading. If you're a fairly fast reader then I would give it until maybe the end of book four and if you're still not feeling it you can probably drop it there. The setting winds up being very interesting and the portrayals of the costs of warfare on both a personal and national level are really well written. There are a lot of well written characters that I grew to love by the end of the series. It's a big investment but to me it was worth it.
Perhaps this comes from being surrounded by too many academics*, but I personally had the distinct feeling that the weirdness was not limited to specific portions, but rather, the entirety of magic in The Wheel of Time was implicitly built around a conservative perspective on heterosexual sex. While it isn't necessarily bad, the feeling did make the descriptions at times seem a bit ridiculous, and I've always been a bit confused that this doesn't seem to be brought up more often.
And, of course, the Dragonmount as the symbol of saidin is a giant phallic object, while maps of Tar Valon look oddly like a vulva.
(*)
I don't think these takes are wrong, but I think they are probably a bit overstated. There is definitely a strong gender binary presented, and there are differences between the genders presented as being inherent. There are also, however, a not insignificant number of characters that don't fit into that binary in a number of ways.
I wouldn't deny that there's a definite perspective about gender that doesn't really fit the modern understanding, and I could certainly see why some readers would be put off by that.