The best description I ever heard of this is that Superman is Clark Kent's secret identity, and that Bruce Wayne is Batman's.
I always liked Superman in the stories that focus on the fact that he is a normal guy at heart who talks and acts like a normal dude, and Batman seemed like the exact opposite.
The best description I ever heard of this is that Superman is Clark Kent's secret identity, and that Bruce Wayne is Batman's.
Which is funny because this is the exact opposite of the argument made in Bill's monologue at the end of Kill Bill. I've never read comics but one of my old roommates was into them, and when he...
Which is funny because this is the exact opposite of the argument made in Bill's monologue at the end of Kill Bill. I've never read comics but one of my old roommates was into them, and when he first saw that scene when I showed him Kill Bill he started yelling that it was wrong. I wouldn't know. My understanding now is that apparently Clark Kent is best understood as Superman's alter ego in like golden and silver age comics, but that this characterization seems to have flipped since then?
I believe it did flip from the original characterizations of Superman. Turns out a normal guy raised by kind and loving rural parents trying to be more than just a person, but a symbol for good is...
I believe it did flip from the original characterizations of Superman. Turns out a normal guy raised by kind and loving rural parents trying to be more than just a person, but a symbol for good is more relatable than a golden god of supreme power hiding his identity. Clark and Peter Parker/Spider-Man sort of have that in common, trying to live uncomplicated lives but knowing they need to be more and do more because of their abilities. With great power and all that.
More commonly though, Clark and Superman have no separation, Clark Kent is Superman and Superman is Clark Kent. He is a heroic symbol and a small town farmboy raised by the Kents. He disguises that fact out of practicality, but neither is a fabrication, just different facets of the same man. Bruce Wayne is commonly written to be a fiction created by Batman. The real Bruce died with his parents and he was replaced by Batman. And then Batman makes up a disguise called "Bruce Wayne" that he wears to formal occasions. Some idealized, meek, wealthy elite that Batman can use as a tool to accomplish his goals.
I have really disliked Batman and largely avoided looking into DC very much even as Marvel became a big thing in pop culture because of it. I always liked Superman in the stories that focus on the...
I have really disliked Batman and largely avoided looking into DC very much even as Marvel became a big thing in pop culture because of it.
I always liked Superman in the stories that focus on the fact that he is a normal guy at heart who talks and acts like a normal dude, and Batman seemed like the exact opposite. A guy always in character who seemed like the world was bending over backward to make him never lose.
I remember some cartoon where they're fighting Darkseid or something, and he's punching Superman, a guy who bullets bounce off, and it's really hurting him. Then Batman jumps on his back, Darkseid grabs him, and instead of splattering him on the ground just sort of tosses him aside harmlessly. Then later Lex Luthor shoots him with a gun designed to hurt Superman, and nothing happens. But then Batman throws a batarang and suddenly he's stunned. Felt so tilted in his favor.
But anyway then I saw this video and the idea of stories that actually crticize him for his obsessive dick measuring against other superheroes actually sounds interesting.
I'm wondering what Batman comics are actually like now. Is it mostly like the memes where he just wins all the time because he has prep time? Or do the comics present his behavior and attitude as a character flaw?
It really really depends on the arc, and who is writing it. Batman comics, especially those that take place in the Elseworlds (DC's alternate universe/non-canon imprints), vary a great deal in how...
I'm wondering what Batman comics are actually like now. Is it mostly like the memes where he just wins all the time because he has prep time? Or do the comics present his behavior and attitude as a character flaw?
It really really depends on the arc, and who is writing it. Batman comics, especially those that take place in the Elseworlds (DC's alternate universe/non-canon imprints), vary a great deal in how they portray Batman and Superman, and how they portray the outcome of any conflict they end up having. Some show Batman able to relatively easily defeat Superman due to his wealth, intellect, and ability to exploit Superman's weaknesses (The Dark Knight Returns), while others show Superman able to defeat Batman rather trivially in spite of him trying to exploit said weaknesses (Lex Luthor: Man of Steel), while some show them being pretty much on par with each other (Superman: Red Son). Some treat Batman's intense paranoia about other meta/superhumans as a character flaw (JLA: Tower of Babel, The OMAC Project), while others show it as being totally justified (Kingdom Come, Injustice: Gods Among Us).
But in general, yeah, Batman typically has some serious, serious plot armor. :P
Honestly, the benchmark Batman is actually that same cartoon version you're describing. The comics often swing wildly between a quality portrayal or a totally inaccurate portrayal that's somehow...
Honestly, the benchmark Batman is actually that same cartoon version you're describing. The comics often swing wildly between a quality portrayal or a totally inaccurate portrayal that's somehow canon. The live action movies are even worse, giving the worst version of all DC characters the most mainstream prominence. This applies to all DC characters, their best versions are in the DCAU. In those shows, you'll actually get exactly what you're looking for over the course of their runs. The triumph of that subsection of superhero media is that they ignored the canon and personalities of the comics and instead created their own self-contained versions of the DC roster that was much better considered and more coherent, with writing that took more time to explore the philosophies, trauma, and morals of all the characters. After all, it's the DCAU that gave us the famous Mr. Freeze origin story that turned him into one of the most sympathetic anti-villains in all of superhero media.
Superhero fights are always kind of a wash of convenient plot more than they are a fully considered or realized clash—technically Superman is the only real competitor to Darkseid but it would be boring to have a Justice League episode that's just those two slugging at each other on an isolated planet for 20 minutes. Also, I believe that fight is actually based on one in the actual comics.
But the fights aren't the reason to go and check out the DCAU stories. Those are actually the most boring and hokey parts of those shows (which include Batman TAS, Superman TAS, Batman Beyond, and the Justice League shows). The real appeal is in the character dynamics and relationships, especially when they are shown to be wrong. In fact, Batman and Superman in these animated shows rank among one of the best "buddy cop" duos ever because they keep each other in check. Batman is often portrayed missing the forest for the trees in his brooding and Superman has to point out that he has to do more for others, and Batman acts as the moral centre for Superman and the rest of the team when they let their passions take them too far by focusing on their mission.
There's another episode of that Justice League show involving Darkseid where Superman is losing the plot entirely in his rage against Darkseid to the point that he's risking the rest of the JL and himself. Batman is the one to confront him about it mid-fight and Superman majorly injures Batman in his fit of rage by simply backhanding him out of the way, and breaking a bunch of his bones. The climax of this episode isn't the fight between Superman and Darkseid, it's the verbal argument between Batman and Superman afterwards when Superman goes to apologize.
And there are plenty of other episodes where it's Batman's turn, or Wonder Woman's, or the Flash's or someone else's turn. Everyone gets a turn where they're the one in the wrong, or they're the one who's right. But one thing you'll never get with mainline superhero stories is an absence of plot armour or plot-convenient contrivances that big up one character over another. The entire genre (or concept, really) is a mess of inconsistent power levels and matchups. What's more interesting is the stakes of the fight and the outcome more than the choreography. Batman of course always seems to have the most generous plot armour but it's also because he's the only one without superpowers so he does have the most gap to fill when the Justice League fights literal gods that give Superman a lot of trouble all the time. But overall, Batman's role is largely the strategic one more than he is a slugger in the JL show, that role often goes to Superman or Wonder Woman in fights. The show actually does go out of its way on occasion to show that Batman can and does get seriously injured more than anyone else as a result (nobody else in the JL would have been as injured as Batman from that Superman backhand).
If anything, the Justice League shows alone are worth a watch as they give a great approximation of the best of the DC stable and the appeals of all their characters, and how they fit together with each other. You won't necessarily come out changing your mind on any character but I think everyone will come out with a new appreciation for why all the characters are the way they are. Yeah, Batman is a jerk, that's kind of his role in the ensemble. But he's also not supposed to be cruel or condescending about it, just deeply traumatized and incapable of recognizing friendship or family (at the outset). There are many moments when the lesson for Batman is that he can trust other people, and he does have friends, and he does not have to be so protective and paranoid all the time. The DCAU actually has a Batman/Wonder Woman love plot in the Justice League shows that honestly makes a lot of sense and their romance is subtly and well-portrayed—a big part of it is Batman learning to trust that a literal goddess can take care of herself just fine and he can let go of his overly-paranoid personality around her a bit. It's real, genuine, human character growth for a character that's often written like an always-correct asshole by many lesser writers.
A lot of comics writers really miss this point and instead create some kind of asshole-jackass version instead. It's a big reason why I'm not really a fan of the Batman in many of the most famous comics, like Miller's or Morrison's. I think it says a lot that Neil Gaiman's one issue that explores the emotional psyche of Batman (Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader) felt more true to the DCAU Batman than it did any of the comic versions.
In terms of famous Batman comics I do actually like and approve of, I recommend No Man's Land. That one opens with a very contrite Batman having to beg for Jim Gordon's forgiveness.
Last I read Batman was having issues with his on/off relationship with Catwoman. She basically hide the fact Penguin was still alive while Batman was being chased down by a killer robot who...
Last I read Batman was having issues with his on/off relationship with Catwoman. She basically hide the fact Penguin was still alive while Batman was being chased down by a killer robot who misunderstood Batman had killed Penguin. I love some soap opera.
The best description I ever heard of this is that Superman is Clark Kent's secret identity, and that Bruce Wayne is Batman's.
Which is funny because this is the exact opposite of the argument made in Bill's monologue at the end of Kill Bill. I've never read comics but one of my old roommates was into them, and when he first saw that scene when I showed him Kill Bill he started yelling that it was wrong. I wouldn't know. My understanding now is that apparently Clark Kent is best understood as Superman's alter ego in like golden and silver age comics, but that this characterization seems to have flipped since then?
I believe it did flip from the original characterizations of Superman. Turns out a normal guy raised by kind and loving rural parents trying to be more than just a person, but a symbol for good is more relatable than a golden god of supreme power hiding his identity. Clark and Peter Parker/Spider-Man sort of have that in common, trying to live uncomplicated lives but knowing they need to be more and do more because of their abilities. With great power and all that.
More commonly though, Clark and Superman have no separation, Clark Kent is Superman and Superman is Clark Kent. He is a heroic symbol and a small town farmboy raised by the Kents. He disguises that fact out of practicality, but neither is a fabrication, just different facets of the same man. Bruce Wayne is commonly written to be a fiction created by Batman. The real Bruce died with his parents and he was replaced by Batman. And then Batman makes up a disguise called "Bruce Wayne" that he wears to formal occasions. Some idealized, meek, wealthy elite that Batman can use as a tool to accomplish his goals.
I have really disliked Batman and largely avoided looking into DC very much even as Marvel became a big thing in pop culture because of it.
I always liked Superman in the stories that focus on the fact that he is a normal guy at heart who talks and acts like a normal dude, and Batman seemed like the exact opposite. A guy always in character who seemed like the world was bending over backward to make him never lose.
I remember some cartoon where they're fighting Darkseid or something, and he's punching Superman, a guy who bullets bounce off, and it's really hurting him. Then Batman jumps on his back, Darkseid grabs him, and instead of splattering him on the ground just sort of tosses him aside harmlessly. Then later Lex Luthor shoots him with a gun designed to hurt Superman, and nothing happens. But then Batman throws a batarang and suddenly he's stunned. Felt so tilted in his favor.
But anyway then I saw this video and the idea of stories that actually crticize him for his obsessive dick measuring against other superheroes actually sounds interesting.
I'm wondering what Batman comics are actually like now. Is it mostly like the memes where he just wins all the time because he has prep time? Or do the comics present his behavior and attitude as a character flaw?
It really really depends on the arc, and who is writing it. Batman comics, especially those that take place in the Elseworlds (DC's alternate universe/non-canon imprints), vary a great deal in how they portray Batman and Superman, and how they portray the outcome of any conflict they end up having. Some show Batman able to relatively easily defeat Superman due to his wealth, intellect, and ability to exploit Superman's weaknesses (The Dark Knight Returns), while others show Superman able to defeat Batman rather trivially in spite of him trying to exploit said weaknesses (Lex Luthor: Man of Steel), while some show them being pretty much on par with each other (Superman: Red Son). Some treat Batman's intense paranoia about other meta/superhumans as a character flaw (JLA: Tower of Babel, The OMAC Project), while others show it as being totally justified (Kingdom Come, Injustice: Gods Among Us).
But in general, yeah, Batman typically has some serious, serious plot armor. :P
Honestly, the benchmark Batman is actually that same cartoon version you're describing. The comics often swing wildly between a quality portrayal or a totally inaccurate portrayal that's somehow canon. The live action movies are even worse, giving the worst version of all DC characters the most mainstream prominence. This applies to all DC characters, their best versions are in the DCAU. In those shows, you'll actually get exactly what you're looking for over the course of their runs. The triumph of that subsection of superhero media is that they ignored the canon and personalities of the comics and instead created their own self-contained versions of the DC roster that was much better considered and more coherent, with writing that took more time to explore the philosophies, trauma, and morals of all the characters. After all, it's the DCAU that gave us the famous Mr. Freeze origin story that turned him into one of the most sympathetic anti-villains in all of superhero media.
Superhero fights are always kind of a wash of convenient plot more than they are a fully considered or realized clash—technically Superman is the only real competitor to Darkseid but it would be boring to have a Justice League episode that's just those two slugging at each other on an isolated planet for 20 minutes. Also, I believe that fight is actually based on one in the actual comics.
But the fights aren't the reason to go and check out the DCAU stories. Those are actually the most boring and hokey parts of those shows (which include Batman TAS, Superman TAS, Batman Beyond, and the Justice League shows). The real appeal is in the character dynamics and relationships, especially when they are shown to be wrong. In fact, Batman and Superman in these animated shows rank among one of the best "buddy cop" duos ever because they keep each other in check. Batman is often portrayed missing the forest for the trees in his brooding and Superman has to point out that he has to do more for others, and Batman acts as the moral centre for Superman and the rest of the team when they let their passions take them too far by focusing on their mission.
There's another episode of that Justice League show involving Darkseid where Superman is losing the plot entirely in his rage against Darkseid to the point that he's risking the rest of the JL and himself. Batman is the one to confront him about it mid-fight and Superman majorly injures Batman in his fit of rage by simply backhanding him out of the way, and breaking a bunch of his bones. The climax of this episode isn't the fight between Superman and Darkseid, it's the verbal argument between Batman and Superman afterwards when Superman goes to apologize.
And there are plenty of other episodes where it's Batman's turn, or Wonder Woman's, or the Flash's or someone else's turn. Everyone gets a turn where they're the one in the wrong, or they're the one who's right. But one thing you'll never get with mainline superhero stories is an absence of plot armour or plot-convenient contrivances that big up one character over another. The entire genre (or concept, really) is a mess of inconsistent power levels and matchups. What's more interesting is the stakes of the fight and the outcome more than the choreography. Batman of course always seems to have the most generous plot armour but it's also because he's the only one without superpowers so he does have the most gap to fill when the Justice League fights literal gods that give Superman a lot of trouble all the time. But overall, Batman's role is largely the strategic one more than he is a slugger in the JL show, that role often goes to Superman or Wonder Woman in fights. The show actually does go out of its way on occasion to show that Batman can and does get seriously injured more than anyone else as a result (nobody else in the JL would have been as injured as Batman from that Superman backhand).
If anything, the Justice League shows alone are worth a watch as they give a great approximation of the best of the DC stable and the appeals of all their characters, and how they fit together with each other. You won't necessarily come out changing your mind on any character but I think everyone will come out with a new appreciation for why all the characters are the way they are. Yeah, Batman is a jerk, that's kind of his role in the ensemble. But he's also not supposed to be cruel or condescending about it, just deeply traumatized and incapable of recognizing friendship or family (at the outset). There are many moments when the lesson for Batman is that he can trust other people, and he does have friends, and he does not have to be so protective and paranoid all the time. The DCAU actually has a Batman/Wonder Woman love plot in the Justice League shows that honestly makes a lot of sense and their romance is subtly and well-portrayed—a big part of it is Batman learning to trust that a literal goddess can take care of herself just fine and he can let go of his overly-paranoid personality around her a bit. It's real, genuine, human character growth for a character that's often written like an always-correct asshole by many lesser writers.
A lot of comics writers really miss this point and instead create some kind of asshole-jackass version instead. It's a big reason why I'm not really a fan of the Batman in many of the most famous comics, like Miller's or Morrison's. I think it says a lot that Neil Gaiman's one issue that explores the emotional psyche of Batman (Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader) felt more true to the DCAU Batman than it did any of the comic versions.
In terms of famous Batman comics I do actually like and approve of, I recommend No Man's Land. That one opens with a very contrite Batman having to beg for Jim Gordon's forgiveness.
Last I read Batman was having issues with his on/off relationship with Catwoman. She basically hide the fact Penguin was still alive while Batman was being chased down by a killer robot who misunderstood Batman had killed Penguin. I love some soap opera.