I'm not really a fan of this style of argument and I wonder if the students got much out of it. It doesn't seem like the advice is very practical, not even among the "practical suggestions." For...
I'm not really a fan of this style of argument and I wonder if the students got much out of it. It doesn't seem like the advice is very practical, not even among the "practical suggestions." For example, "get arrested" is no more practical than "get a job" is to someone who's out of work. What matters is finding something that's worth doing, perhaps even worth getting arrested for. Otherwise, it would be suffering for no purpose.
For a student interested in doing something about climate change, practical advice would be about how to find something to work on that would actually help. What are some promising areas to look into?
I agree that "get arrested" isn't useful. I do think that that's not all we should take away though. IMO there remains a problem of "disinterested scholarship" and the notion that all social...
I agree that "get arrested" isn't useful. I do think that that's not all we should take away though. IMO there remains a problem of "disinterested scholarship" and the notion that all social problems have technical solutions and so on. Note that at least some of these students likely went into grad school too, so the takeaways are going to be a little different for them than for someone going into the industry right away. These are points he has expanded on in more detail in his essay I've posted on Tildes before, The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work.
practical advice would be about how to find something to work on that would actually help
My reading is that before practical action items, a change in mindset is necessary. I'd argue that's his intent but obviously I can't speak for him.
Edit: I am also reminded of this recent paper, "It’s about power: What ethical concerns do software engineers have, and what do they (feel they can) do about them?"
Yes, that’s a more sympathetic reading. I don’t think practical difficulties and mindset can separated though. Some students might not want to work on climate change because it seems...
Yes, that’s a more sympathetic reading. I don’t think practical difficulties and mindset can separated though. Some students might not want to work on climate change because it seems overwhelmingly difficult and they don’t see how they can meaningfully make a dent in the problem. Or maybe they don’t know if they’d qualify for a job in that field, or they don’t what kinds of jobs there are. They might choose to work on something else because they can more easily imagine what that path is like.
I think the professor makes working on climate change sound like requires a lot of personal sacrifice. (For example, dropping out and getting arrested.) That can effectively be a way of discouraging people from wanting to do that, even if that wasn’t their intent.
You might compare with advice about grad school. Many people these days discourage students from grad school if they’re at all uncertain, because it really is quite difficult and a financial sacrifice. You have to be really committed or it’s not worth it.
Does working on climate change require that level of commitment? I would guess not.
I think there's a more subtle part of it too. A student listening to the class don't have to work directly on solving climate change but perhaps they'll think twice about working on, say, the...
I think there's a more subtle part of it too. A student listening to the class don't have to work directly on solving climate change but perhaps they'll think twice about working on, say, the latest cryptocurrency fad?
I think the professor makes working on climate change sound like requires a lot of personal sacrifice. (For example, dropping out and getting arrested.) That can effectively be a way of discouraging people from wanting to do that, even if that wasn’t their intent.
That's the thing, I read it as "there are real crises we're facing" and while each individual does not need to work to solve it, perhaps they should think about what it is they're building and the impact of their work, whether on the climate or in other ways.
You might compare with advice about grad school. Many people these days discourage students from grad school if they’re at all uncertain, because it really is quite difficult and a financial sacrifice. You have to be really committed or it’s not worth it.
Hah, that's my approach when someone asks me about that. I default to "probably a bad idea" and see if they're still interested in it. It's been a surprisingly decent rule of thumb to get a sense of whether folks are interested in getting a PhD or if they have an unrealistic image of the whole process. (I did learn it from someone who told me not to get a PhD when I asked him about his PhD, credit where it's due.)
Abstract from the author: We stand today at the brink of civilizational and environmental collapse. What role have we computer scientists been playing in alleviating—or exacerbating—this threat?...
Abstract from the author: We stand today at the brink of civilizational and environmental collapse. What role have we computer scientists been playing in alleviating—or exacerbating—this threat? What role should we be playing? These are questions that many of us reflexively shun. At the same time, proceeding with business-as-usual, as most of us do, seems like madness.
Honestly.. I’m a bit of a doomer myself, and a computer scientist (and human being), but I didn’t love what I read here. Slide 2 has a note about how the students probably wanted the other...
Honestly.. I’m a bit of a doomer myself, and a computer scientist (and human being), but I didn’t love what I read here. Slide 2 has a note about how the students probably wanted the other professor - I can kind of see why !
I agree with @skybrian - I’ve never liked this kind of argument where you point to how things are wrong and at best suggest only radical and impractical solutions. Yes, things are fucked up. Will revolting really help ? Will Prof Rogaway be revolting with us ? Is it really CS-type thinking at the core of humanity’s problems ? He hasn’t convinced me of any of that.
What a terrible talk. It's a man having a personal existential crisis (which I hope he is dealing with) but then moralizing it and, even worse, preaching its virtue to his students. The doomerism...
What a terrible talk. It's a man having a personal existential crisis (which I hope he is dealing with) but then moralizing it and, even worse, preaching its virtue to his students. The doomerism I'm seeing as of the last few years is staggering and, to my mind, the biggest impediment to fixing our problems. These people are violating basic tenets of cognitive behavioral therapy. History shows us how silly and insignificant our fears of impending doom are.
Software Development / Engineering is really just about solving problems, and using software to do it. There will always be problems to solve, and a requirement for people to do it. The tool is...
Software Development / Engineering is really just about solving problems, and using software to do it.
There will always be problems to solve, and a requirement for people to do it. The tool is less important, in my opinion.
Regarding the title edit... which does everyone prefer? c̵o̵m̵p̵u̵t̵e̵r̵ ̵s̵c̵i̵e̵n̵t̵i̵s̵t̵ (what I changed it to already) ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶u̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ c̷o̷m̷p̷u̷t̷e̷r̷...
Regarding the title edit... which does everyone prefer?
c̵o̵m̵p̵u̵t̵e̵r̵ ̵s̵c̵i̵e̵n̵t̵i̵s̵t̵ (what I changed it to already)
̶c̶o̶m̶p̶u̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶
c̷o̷m̷p̷u̷t̷e̷r̷ ̷s̷c̷i̷e̷n̷t̷i̷s̷t̷
c̸o̸m̸p̸u̸t̸e̸r̸ ̸s̸c̸i̸e̸n̸t̸i̸s̸t̸
Please mark this as offtopic. I'm just having some fun with unicode and testing Tildes sanitizing. ;)
I'm not really a fan of this style of argument and I wonder if the students got much out of it. It doesn't seem like the advice is very practical, not even among the "practical suggestions." For example, "get arrested" is no more practical than "get a job" is to someone who's out of work. What matters is finding something that's worth doing, perhaps even worth getting arrested for. Otherwise, it would be suffering for no purpose.
For a student interested in doing something about climate change, practical advice would be about how to find something to work on that would actually help. What are some promising areas to look into?
I agree that "get arrested" isn't useful. I do think that that's not all we should take away though. IMO there remains a problem of "disinterested scholarship" and the notion that all social problems have technical solutions and so on. Note that at least some of these students likely went into grad school too, so the takeaways are going to be a little different for them than for someone going into the industry right away. These are points he has expanded on in more detail in his essay I've posted on Tildes before, The Moral Character of Cryptographic Work.
My reading is that before practical action items, a change in mindset is necessary. I'd argue that's his intent but obviously I can't speak for him.
Edit: I am also reminded of this recent paper, "It’s about power: What ethical concerns do software engineers have, and what do they (feel they can) do about them?"
Yes, that’s a more sympathetic reading. I don’t think practical difficulties and mindset can separated though. Some students might not want to work on climate change because it seems overwhelmingly difficult and they don’t see how they can meaningfully make a dent in the problem. Or maybe they don’t know if they’d qualify for a job in that field, or they don’t what kinds of jobs there are. They might choose to work on something else because they can more easily imagine what that path is like.
I think the professor makes working on climate change sound like requires a lot of personal sacrifice. (For example, dropping out and getting arrested.) That can effectively be a way of discouraging people from wanting to do that, even if that wasn’t their intent.
You might compare with advice about grad school. Many people these days discourage students from grad school if they’re at all uncertain, because it really is quite difficult and a financial sacrifice. You have to be really committed or it’s not worth it.
Does working on climate change require that level of commitment? I would guess not.
I think there's a more subtle part of it too. A student listening to the class don't have to work directly on solving climate change but perhaps they'll think twice about working on, say, the latest cryptocurrency fad?
That's the thing, I read it as "there are real crises we're facing" and while each individual does not need to work to solve it, perhaps they should think about what it is they're building and the impact of their work, whether on the climate or in other ways.
Hah, that's my approach when someone asks me about that. I default to "probably a bad idea" and see if they're still interested in it. It's been a surprisingly decent rule of thumb to get a sense of whether folks are interested in getting a PhD or if they have an unrealistic image of the whole process. (I did learn it from someone who told me not to get a PhD when I asked him about his PhD, credit where it's due.)
Abstract from the author: We stand today at the brink of civilizational and environmental collapse. What role have we computer scientists been playing in alleviating—or exacerbating—this threat? What role should we be playing? These are questions that many of us reflexively shun. At the same time, proceeding with business-as-usual, as most of us do, seems like madness.
Honestly.. I’m a bit of a doomer myself, and a computer scientist (and human being), but I didn’t love what I read here. Slide 2 has a note about how the students probably wanted the other professor - I can kind of see why !
I agree with @skybrian - I’ve never liked this kind of argument where you point to how things are wrong and at best suggest only radical and impractical solutions. Yes, things are fucked up. Will revolting really help ? Will Prof Rogaway be revolting with us ? Is it really CS-type thinking at the core of humanity’s problems ? He hasn’t convinced me of any of that.
What a terrible talk. It's a man having a personal existential crisis (which I hope he is dealing with) but then moralizing it and, even worse, preaching its virtue to his students. The doomerism I'm seeing as of the last few years is staggering and, to my mind, the biggest impediment to fixing our problems. These people are violating basic tenets of cognitive behavioral therapy. History shows us how silly and insignificant our fears of impending doom are.
Software Development / Engineering is really just about solving problems, and using software to do it.
There will always be problems to solve, and a requirement for people to do it. The tool is less important, in my opinion.
Regarding the title edit... which does everyone prefer?
c̵o̵m̵p̵u̵t̵e̵r̵ ̵s̵c̵i̵e̵n̵t̵i̵s̵t̵ (what I changed it to already)
̶c̶o̶m̶p̶u̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶
c̷o̷m̷p̷u̷t̷e̷r̷ ̷s̷c̷i̷e̷n̷t̷i̷s̷t̷
c̸o̸m̸p̸u̸t̸e̸r̸ ̸s̸c̸i̸e̸n̸t̸i̸s̸t̸
Please mark this as offtopic. I'm just having some fun with unicode and testing Tildes sanitizing. ;)
It is. :P
https://tildes.net/~test/16aj/t_e_s_t_i_n_g