My father taught me to live in the same way MMM is arguing for. My mother taught me that it's okay to spend some money on fun. For a long time I was my father's child. I was extremely frugal in...
Exemplary
My father taught me to live in the same way MMM is arguing for. My mother taught me that it's okay to spend some money on fun.
For a long time I was my father's child. I was extremely frugal in everything I purchased, spending a lot of time researching the best price and avoiding overpaying for service, amenities or other "niceties". Every dollar I put into savings, which I then invested in a broad profile. My parents had the good idea of investing money for my education early, and I treated that like a fund - taking as little out as possible and moving around investments to match market trends. I went to community college and then sped my way through college and eventually a masters program where I was finally old enough to divorce myself from my parents earnings and get financial aid (despite having enough money to pay for the school outright).
I happened to fall into a relationship with someone who was similarly frugal. We spent a decade together. Over this time I continued to save. She hated to travel, which was okay with me because I told myself I was building a retirement fund for us. I'm the only Millennial I know who owns a place, and I live in one of the most expensive places in America. I'm just a few blocks from the nearest Google building. Not only do I own a place, but I have a large amount of savings - enough that if I didn't own a place I could probably retire reasonably comfortably, today, in a cheap place to live.
This year I broke up with my ex and I found myself wondering what the hell was the point? All of my peers have great stories of their travels in Europe, Asia, etc. They have stories of climbing mountains, scuba diving in the Bahamas, going to concerts in Ibiza, and more. Even at home they have stories of hitting up bars at night and meeting eccentric people, going to events where crazy things happened, and a lot of stuff that sounds fun but I would never go to because of the cost and because I knew at the time that it would upset my ex (not just because of the cost, there were other issues).
Over this past few months I've been trying to live a little bit more like my mom taught me, and I have to say that while the depression of ending a decade long relationship is tough to overcome, I have some amazing stories now and I wouldn't trade them for the world. It's still tough, sometimes, to look at a credit card bill or try and space out how much time and money I spend on fun, I often find myself in my dad's shoes scrutinizing my own purchases. But I have to say that days that I'm happy, I'm truly happy, and that's something I haven't been able to say for a long time. I think there's a balance to be struck here between two extremes, and the sweet spot of this balance is going to be slightly different for each person.
I've just started attempting to trying to explore the idea of earning money on my own terms. It still feels very much like it's an impossibility given how difficult it is to break into small...
figure out how you can earn on your own terms, doing something you legitimately enjoy, and chip away at a new sculpture of your life.
I've just started attempting to trying to explore the idea of earning money on my own terms. It still feels very much like it's an impossibility given how difficult it is to break into small business in the area I live, but if I can make it work I would love to be my own boss or even run a company that actually cares a little about it's employees.
The thing is, most people do not understand this mindset and you're the weirdo for having it.
I'm already used to people treating me like the weirdo, so I have a bit of an advantage here in that I really could not care less. 😂
It's the first thing I look for when I meet new people, lol. I'm weird and proud of it. Yeah maybe if I didn't already purchase a condo, I'd do this. But I dunno, I might sell within a few years...
Being weird is great.
It's the first thing I look for when I meet new people, lol. I'm weird and proud of it.
Being location independent is superb. It allows you to run away from that HCOL area and move somewhere nice that isn't so expensive.
Yeah maybe if I didn't already purchase a condo, I'd do this. But I dunno, I might sell within a few years and try and move into a bigger city in a cheaper place to live. I really like how it can actually be quiet at night but I also hate that there's not a lot of places to walk to and that it takes so damn long to drive into SF at night whenever I want to do something fun.
try to break through the doubt you have and realize that people dumber than you do it everyday.
Oh I don't have any doubt that I can do it, the only doubt I have is to whether I get lucky enough to pursue it full time. There's just far too many people around here trying to do it (and in a way in the back of my mind I'm like ugh, another silicon valley startup get over yourself) so a lot of it is just chance.
I'm not sure what I want to do with my time, is the thing. I don't hate my job. I can't say I honestly love it either, but I have good boundaries with it. I work 40 hours a week and I get to make...
I'm not sure what I want to do with my time, is the thing. I don't hate my job. I can't say I honestly love it either, but I have good boundaries with it. I work 40 hours a week and I get to make a real difference in people's lives. I've been a part of many initiatives which have saved literally thousands of lives by reducing mortality and increasing quality of care.
One of the big things I find is that even when I do take vacations, I find myself struggling to find something to do in my free time. Video games don't hold me like they used to, and a lot of my hobbies are physical activity based such as rock climbing and my body can only take so much punishment each day. I find myself gravitating back to the internet, or watching dumb shit on Netflix, because the reality is I don't have enough friends or money that I could spend every day doing something interesting. The idea of retiring is not on my horizon anytime soon, if I was to move to a LCOL area, it would be to start a small business.
Right now I'm going through a lot so I find myself questioning things, but I have an extremely blessed life. I'm in no rush to change things and live entirely on my own terms right now, I would rather contribute to fixing a system I'm a part of from within. Perhaps I will regret not moving somewhere and starting my own business sooner, but for the moment I am content with incremental changes in my lifestyle and trying to do more things that I find enjoyable.
Yeah I learned that lesson very slowly with a decade long relationship that had serious problems for at least half the time. Well, kind of. I'm still working on it.
Just be careful with inertia. Time can go by quickly when you get swept up in the current.
Yeah I learned that lesson very slowly with a decade long relationship that had serious problems for at least half the time. Well, kind of. I'm still working on it.
Not OP. It's fascinating to read your experience in Silicon Valley. You're in healthcare analysis, correct? Trying to recall from our other interactions.
Not OP. It's fascinating to read your experience in Silicon Valley. You're in healthcare analysis, correct? Trying to recall from our other interactions.
Yep, "data science light" as I like to call it, given how few predictive and statistical models we actually do. Most of the time the tricky part is finding and cleaning the data.
Yep, "data science light" as I like to call it, given how few predictive and statistical models we actually do. Most of the time the tricky part is finding and cleaning the data.
That sounds like an interesting position. I'm an ETL engineer and deal with cleaning and transforming large amounts of data. We have a health care vertical but I'm not directly involved in that....
That sounds like an interesting position. I'm an ETL engineer and deal with cleaning and transforming large amounts of data. We have a health care vertical but I'm not directly involved in that. Are you using any ETL tools/IDEs?
Yes, but nothing industry standard. We have a large contract with a health care contracting company and we have chosen (for whatever reason) to use their home grown tool set. My last job used...
Yes, but nothing industry standard. We have a large contract with a health care contracting company and we have chosen (for whatever reason) to use their home grown tool set.
My last job used Informatica and it was so much nicer.
Man, this resonates with me so much. I lived in a condo in a big city for a while and started working on a side project for kicks, but my favorite memories from that time period are being with...
Man, this resonates with me so much. I lived in a condo in a big city for a while and started working on a side project for kicks, but my favorite memories from that time period are being with friends and walking around the city. I live in a smaller city now and find quite a bit of satisfaction in doing yard chores that weren't required at the condo - I've found being able to see a simple physical result really satisfying.
To be honest if the situation presented itself correctly I'd strongly consider giving up my green grass in the 'burbs and moving back downtown-ish! The timing and market isn't correct around me,...
To be honest if the situation presented itself correctly I'd strongly consider giving up my green grass in the 'burbs and moving back downtown-ish! The timing and market isn't correct around me, though.
That's super exciting and I think smart of you. Refresh my memory: Are you the writer who moved to a small town with your partner to renovate an old farm house? Anyhoo, I think what you've said is...
That's super exciting and I think smart of you. Refresh my memory: Are you the writer who moved to a small town with your partner to renovate an old farm house?
Anyhoo, I think what you've said is very important. I don't think I'd want to go to the extremes that MMM does unless I was young without kids. Right now, I'm debating whether to take the family to Disney or to bank that money for a rainy day. I go back and forth but I'm leaning towards going as there is only a few years during childhood where that visit is going to be meaningful.
Yeah, that's my thought as well. We have no debt except for the house and some savings so I think we're in a good position to go for it . There is definitely a "keeping up with the jones" aspect...
You'll never get these years back with the kids, so have fun and have some nice family experiences.
Yeah, that's my thought as well. We have no debt except for the house and some savings so I think we're in a good position to go for it . There is definitely a "keeping up with the jones" aspect of going to Disney that I'm struggling with. My family has environmental allergies that can make camping difficult (grass allergies and camp fire smoke aggravates my daughter's asthma) but I understand what you're trying to say - there are a lot of cheaper alternatives to Disney (which is actuality something MMM talks about).
I'm sure there's some good advice in there, although it's US-centric enough that as a non-American, I can't relate at all the moment numbers get concrete. But there's this iffy, strange feeling I...
I'm sure there's some good advice in there, although it's US-centric enough that as a non-American, I can't relate at all the moment numbers get concrete.
But there's this iffy, strange feeling I get from most of these, for lack of a better word, "lifestyle gurus". They preach jumping off the rat race, etc. But it seems over time, preaching this becomes just another job. Full-time work, regular income. Probably have to crank out a blog post or deliver a lecture when you really rather would be enjoying the early retirement you are preaching as the end goal of your life philosophy. At that point, did you really leave the rat race behind or did you just pull a meta switch and make talking about how to escape it your new job? Think Tim Ferris spending 40+ hours a week promoting the "4-hour work week".
At some point, it becomes painfully clear to both the "guru" and the fanbase/audience that their situations are now very different. Not saying they intentionally deceived anyone, but over time, their life has become very different from the people to whom their advice is supposed to apply. But the guru's brand is still based on giving advice to regular joes, and the authority comes from having been there, done that. How long can you keep that going, when you yourself left the lifestyle you are preaching behind years ago? Like this finance blog, seems like the guy writing it has been doing quite a lot of business in his "retirement", and his current level of spending doesn't seem particularly frugal either.
At that point, rationalizations set in. "I don't have to do this, but I want to. I would have been happy staying where I was forever, but I was just so excited to share this message." Yeah, maybe. Or maybe it's easy to give advice that doesn't apply to you anymore, which you can choose to ignore anytime you want with some rationalization. I'm not saying it's outright fraud, or that the advice can't have its merits. But there's just a heavy dose of cognitive dissonance involved.
Some examples I've encountered: Business advice types whose most successful business is their business advice business. Travel reviewer who talks about traveling high-class on a low budget via frequent flyer miles and credit card bonuses... Which requires you to fly as much as a professional travel reviewer and spend obnoxious amounts of money using credit cards in order to realize the benefits. Or someone who promotes ways to work less but more efficiently to get more spare time for family, friends and hobbies then proceeds to work overtime to promote these ideas on a blog, youtube, ted talk, book, book tour, online courses...
Maybe I'm cynical and overly pessimistic. Maybe I have a defeatist attitude and learned helplessness. Probably all true. Surely there are many good ideas and practical advice floating around the broader self-help, life philosophy sphere, and surely to some extent my gripes above can be seen as rationalizing the fear of taking action or reluctance to make short-term sacrifices for long-term gains. But still.
I'll tag this as USA and I should have considered the wider world. Apologies! I think your criticism is 100% on point and makes me think of people like Pat Flynn, and another perosn mentioned how...
I'll tag this as USA and I should have considered the wider world. Apologies!
I think your criticism is 100% on point and makes me think of people like Pat Flynn, and another perosn mentioned how Dave Ramsey has fallen victim to his own success. But of all the people out there, I think MMM is the exception to this. Will he eventually fall prey to what you're describing? Maybe so, we'll see.
I agree with you. The one guy that i think it's doing the early retirement thing for real is Jacob from earlyretirementextreme. I used to read his blog a lot when he was writing new posts. He...
I agree with you. The one guy that i think it's doing the early retirement thing for real is Jacob from earlyretirementextreme. I used to read his blog a lot when he was writing new posts. He really retired and i remember he got back to work when someone offered a kind of work he did enjoy, i don't know what he is up to now.
You can see the blog is not all that flashy. It's still having posts, but if you look closely, the blog is re-posting old posts automatically.
I have found the advice offered here to be invaluable and have been disheartened to see /r/personalfinance turn their backs on the teachings of Mr. Money Mustache and Dave Ramsey. My hope is this...
I have found the advice offered here to be invaluable and have been disheartened to see /r/personalfinance turn their backs on the teachings of Mr. Money Mustache and Dave Ramsey. My hope is this introduction blog post from MMM might start someone else on their journey to financial independence.
I think part of it is generational. Part of it is the sub trying to appeal to a larger crowd. People don't like hearing things like "sell your expensive car and go buy a beater" or "forgo...
I think part of it is generational. Part of it is the sub trying to appeal to a larger crowd.
People don't like hearing things like "sell your expensive car and go buy a beater" or "forgo vacations" or things like that. Back in my day (lol) the sub was a lot of hardnosed advice you'd get from a grandparent about saving, minimizing expenses, etc. That's the type of stuff that people who are in debt and looking to get off the hamster wheel need to hear. Now it seems like a lot of it is about how to get the best credit rating, etc whereas before it would have been about not using credit at all. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some r/hailcorporate stuff going on. This is all of course my own personal opinion based on a handful of visits to the sub in recent years.
I would maintain that you do not need a credit rating to buy a house. If you approach a local bank with 20% down and a W2 that shows a steady pay check then they won't turn you down - but may...
I would maintain that you do not need a credit rating to buy a house. If you approach a local bank with 20% down and a W2 that shows a steady pay check then they won't turn you down - but may require some extra steps/disclosures.
That said, yes it'll be easier with a credit rating as that's what the bank is used to dealing with. But that isn't some complex thing. Get a credit card and buy a pack of gum or a tank of gas once in a while and pay it off. That's literally all you need to do.
I don't want to get to a point where I'm having to go source stuff here, but I've seen some pretty bad advice get upvoted to the top. Things like telling someone deeply in debt they should buy a...
I don't want to get to a point where I'm having to go source stuff here, but I've seen some pretty bad advice get upvoted to the top.
Things like telling someone deeply in debt they should buy a recent model car. Or advising people with little experience managing money to get a credit card to "establish credit" - as if that isn't exactly the type of person that credit card companies love to get their hooks into.
There used to be people on college campuses offering "free t-shirts" for signing up for a credit card in college...now I think they just post comments on PF about "establishing credit."
EDIT: And I'd point out what I'm mainly talking about is a philosophical shift in the sub, which is illustrated by your comment. In the past, the sub would have been militantly against credit for any reason - so it's much less hard nosed than it used to be, and that bugs me because someone needs to be that "voice of grandpa/grandma" and it's currently missing from reddit in a meaningful way (/frugal is a tad too crazy and /FIRE is similar but doesn't have the mass appeal)
I don't think /r/personalfinance has "turned its back" on those teachings. Emergency savings, saving up for big expenses, and debt reduction strategies are still at the heart of the sub....
I don't think /r/personalfinance has "turned its back" on those teachings. Emergency savings, saving up for big expenses, and debt reduction strategies are still at the heart of the sub. Navigating the world of credit is also an important part of that - especially in the US.
Wow, this blog is really hard hitting and most of the wastefulness mentioned I can relate to. I have been meaning to make some radical changes in my life and this seems like a really good tool to...
Wow, this blog is really hard hitting and most of the wastefulness mentioned I can relate to. I have been meaning to make some radical changes in my life and this seems like a really good tool to use. Especially the tips about how to mentally resist temptation to buy things as well as how to understand when buying things really is a good idea.
I like how his posts describe how to live a very enjoyable life while still reducing waste which is much better than the usual advice of eating rice and lentils every day while working 3 jobs and trading stock in your sleep.
If you like this you may also like Dave Ramsey's podcast and especially his book/audio book Financial Peace University. Both are like this and help give the moral support needed to make some of...
If you like this you may also like Dave Ramsey's podcast and especially his book/audio book Financial Peace University.
Both are like this and help give the moral support needed to make some of the hard decisions needed to get out of debt and start changing your life. He's religious and also conservative (not my taste) so that stuff bleeds through but it's infrequent and the advice is solid.
I think that's fair criticism. I still hold that the core advice offered in Financial Peace University holds up today. But I don't like the stuff you described and have seen some of that myself....
I think that's fair criticism.
I still hold that the core advice offered in Financial Peace University holds up today. But I don't like the stuff you described and have seen some of that myself. For me, the radio show was a good way to stay motivated while trying to pay down debt. They have the part where people call in and talk about how much debt they paid off - super motivating stuff. So for that reason alone, I think the radio show is helpful.
I don't think I really need too much advice right now. There are so many easy wins I could make like not going out for lunch every day and not buying needless items and moving somewhere within...
I don't think I really need too much advice right now. There are so many easy wins I could make like not going out for lunch every day and not buying needless items and moving somewhere within walking distance of stores. I think I can sort those out easy if I actually try and once I get to that point I can think about some of the more finer details like optimising spending even further on things like food.
I feel like there must be an income level where this becomes impossible. I can save quite a bit because of support from my parents, but if I was on my own and tried to save 50% of my income, I'd...
if you can save 50% of your take-home pay starting at age 20, you’ll be wealthy enough to retire by age 37. If you already have some assets now, you’re even closer than that. If you can save 75%, your working career is only 7 years.
I feel like there must be an income level where this becomes impossible. I can save quite a bit because of support from my parents, but if I was on my own and tried to save 50% of my income, I'd be left with around $7,500/year to live on. My medical expenses (including insurance premiums) last year were over $10,000, so that doesn't really work out.
The individual advice is helpful; I switched to a different phone plan a while back, and I'm saving hundreds of dollars a year. So I get where small changes add up. But that overall savings goal only works for people already making a certain amount (or who have outside support, like me).
I think you're spot on. A lot of what they're talking about is defense - NOT spending the money you earn. But you have to play offense as well and PUMP that income up. Can I ask what you do where...
I think you're spot on. A lot of what they're talking about is defense - NOT spending the money you earn. But you have to play offense as well and PUMP that income up.
Can I ask what you do where you make $15K/year (doubling that $7500 number)?
I certainly am not putting away 50% of my income but I also don't see myself being financially independent for some time.
Don't want to be too specific, but I work remotely for a small tech company. I was originally hired to do online customer service, but I also now do a bit of website maintenance, research,...
Don't want to be too specific, but I work remotely for a small tech company. I was originally hired to do online customer service, but I also now do a bit of website maintenance, research, training and help documentation updates, etc. Pretty much whatever someone needs help with that's within my skills (or I can learn).
The main reason I make relatively little is health/disability. I can only work part time, so in pretty much any job I take I'll make only half of what someone could earn working full time in that position. I would like to increase my income, but those health reasons also make it difficult to be proactive in job hunting- no extra energy outside current work. I also need other accommodations beyond part time (flexible hours, remote work if at all possible, nothing physical or involving standing/walking for any length of time, an understanding boss if I miss a week of work when starting a new med, etc). Those can be tricky to find in a job.
Thanks - yeah, it is frustrating. I totally appreciate this type of advice and understand how it can help a lot of people, but from my personal perspective it feels like an individual solution to...
Thanks - yeah, it is frustrating. I totally appreciate this type of advice and understand how it can help a lot of people, but from my personal perspective it feels like an individual solution to a systemic problem. That's not bad in and of itself, but it's not sufficient either :)
When I quit smoking I used patches. I told everyone that I talked to who was thinking about quitting smoking that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and that's patches. I've since learned that what worked...
When I quit smoking I used patches. I told everyone that I talked to who was thinking about quitting smoking that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and that's patches. I've since learned that what worked for me may not work for others and we each have to find our own way. I think that lesson applies here as well and I hope you find your own solution that's right for you :)
My father taught me to live in the same way MMM is arguing for. My mother taught me that it's okay to spend some money on fun.
For a long time I was my father's child. I was extremely frugal in everything I purchased, spending a lot of time researching the best price and avoiding overpaying for service, amenities or other "niceties". Every dollar I put into savings, which I then invested in a broad profile. My parents had the good idea of investing money for my education early, and I treated that like a fund - taking as little out as possible and moving around investments to match market trends. I went to community college and then sped my way through college and eventually a masters program where I was finally old enough to divorce myself from my parents earnings and get financial aid (despite having enough money to pay for the school outright).
I happened to fall into a relationship with someone who was similarly frugal. We spent a decade together. Over this time I continued to save. She hated to travel, which was okay with me because I told myself I was building a retirement fund for us. I'm the only Millennial I know who owns a place, and I live in one of the most expensive places in America. I'm just a few blocks from the nearest Google building. Not only do I own a place, but I have a large amount of savings - enough that if I didn't own a place I could probably retire reasonably comfortably, today, in a cheap place to live.
This year I broke up with my ex and I found myself wondering what the hell was the point? All of my peers have great stories of their travels in Europe, Asia, etc. They have stories of climbing mountains, scuba diving in the Bahamas, going to concerts in Ibiza, and more. Even at home they have stories of hitting up bars at night and meeting eccentric people, going to events where crazy things happened, and a lot of stuff that sounds fun but I would never go to because of the cost and because I knew at the time that it would upset my ex (not just because of the cost, there were other issues).
Over this past few months I've been trying to live a little bit more like my mom taught me, and I have to say that while the depression of ending a decade long relationship is tough to overcome, I have some amazing stories now and I wouldn't trade them for the world. It's still tough, sometimes, to look at a credit card bill or try and space out how much time and money I spend on fun, I often find myself in my dad's shoes scrutinizing my own purchases. But I have to say that days that I'm happy, I'm truly happy, and that's something I haven't been able to say for a long time. I think there's a balance to be struck here between two extremes, and the sweet spot of this balance is going to be slightly different for each person.
I've just started attempting to trying to explore the idea of earning money on my own terms. It still feels very much like it's an impossibility given how difficult it is to break into small business in the area I live, but if I can make it work I would love to be my own boss or even run a company that actually cares a little about it's employees.
I'm already used to people treating me like the weirdo, so I have a bit of an advantage here in that I really could not care less. 😂
It's the first thing I look for when I meet new people, lol. I'm weird and proud of it.
Yeah maybe if I didn't already purchase a condo, I'd do this. But I dunno, I might sell within a few years and try and move into a bigger city in a cheaper place to live. I really like how it can actually be quiet at night but I also hate that there's not a lot of places to walk to and that it takes so damn long to drive into SF at night whenever I want to do something fun.
Oh I don't have any doubt that I can do it, the only doubt I have is to whether I get lucky enough to pursue it full time. There's just far too many people around here trying to do it (and in a way in the back of my mind I'm like ugh, another silicon valley startup get over yourself) so a lot of it is just chance.
I'm not sure what I want to do with my time, is the thing. I don't hate my job. I can't say I honestly love it either, but I have good boundaries with it. I work 40 hours a week and I get to make a real difference in people's lives. I've been a part of many initiatives which have saved literally thousands of lives by reducing mortality and increasing quality of care.
One of the big things I find is that even when I do take vacations, I find myself struggling to find something to do in my free time. Video games don't hold me like they used to, and a lot of my hobbies are physical activity based such as rock climbing and my body can only take so much punishment each day. I find myself gravitating back to the internet, or watching dumb shit on Netflix, because the reality is I don't have enough friends or money that I could spend every day doing something interesting. The idea of retiring is not on my horizon anytime soon, if I was to move to a LCOL area, it would be to start a small business.
Right now I'm going through a lot so I find myself questioning things, but I have an extremely blessed life. I'm in no rush to change things and live entirely on my own terms right now, I would rather contribute to fixing a system I'm a part of from within. Perhaps I will regret not moving somewhere and starting my own business sooner, but for the moment I am content with incremental changes in my lifestyle and trying to do more things that I find enjoyable.
Yeah I learned that lesson very slowly with a decade long relationship that had serious problems for at least half the time. Well, kind of. I'm still working on it.
Not OP. It's fascinating to read your experience in Silicon Valley. You're in healthcare analysis, correct? Trying to recall from our other interactions.
Yep, "data science light" as I like to call it, given how few predictive and statistical models we actually do. Most of the time the tricky part is finding and cleaning the data.
That sounds like an interesting position. I'm an ETL engineer and deal with cleaning and transforming large amounts of data. We have a health care vertical but I'm not directly involved in that. Are you using any ETL tools/IDEs?
Yes, but nothing industry standard. We have a large contract with a health care contracting company and we have chosen (for whatever reason) to use their home grown tool set.
My last job used Informatica and it was so much nicer.
Man, this resonates with me so much. I lived in a condo in a big city for a while and started working on a side project for kicks, but my favorite memories from that time period are being with friends and walking around the city. I live in a smaller city now and find quite a bit of satisfaction in doing yard chores that weren't required at the condo - I've found being able to see a simple physical result really satisfying.
This is exactly the draw that makes me want to sell my suburban condo and move to the city or closer. I guess the grass is always greener 😂
To be honest if the situation presented itself correctly I'd strongly consider giving up my green grass in the 'burbs and moving back downtown-ish! The timing and market isn't correct around me, though.
That's super exciting and I think smart of you. Refresh my memory: Are you the writer who moved to a small town with your partner to renovate an old farm house?
Anyhoo, I think what you've said is very important. I don't think I'd want to go to the extremes that MMM does unless I was young without kids. Right now, I'm debating whether to take the family to Disney or to bank that money for a rainy day. I go back and forth but I'm leaning towards going as there is only a few years during childhood where that visit is going to be meaningful.
We'll see!
Yeah, that's my thought as well. We have no debt except for the house and some savings so I think we're in a good position to go for it . There is definitely a "keeping up with the jones" aspect of going to Disney that I'm struggling with. My family has environmental allergies that can make camping difficult (grass allergies and camp fire smoke aggravates my daughter's asthma) but I understand what you're trying to say - there are a lot of cheaper alternatives to Disney (which is actuality something MMM talks about).
I'm sure there's some good advice in there, although it's US-centric enough that as a non-American, I can't relate at all the moment numbers get concrete.
But there's this iffy, strange feeling I get from most of these, for lack of a better word, "lifestyle gurus". They preach jumping off the rat race, etc. But it seems over time, preaching this becomes just another job. Full-time work, regular income. Probably have to crank out a blog post or deliver a lecture when you really rather would be enjoying the early retirement you are preaching as the end goal of your life philosophy. At that point, did you really leave the rat race behind or did you just pull a meta switch and make talking about how to escape it your new job? Think Tim Ferris spending 40+ hours a week promoting the "4-hour work week".
At some point, it becomes painfully clear to both the "guru" and the fanbase/audience that their situations are now very different. Not saying they intentionally deceived anyone, but over time, their life has become very different from the people to whom their advice is supposed to apply. But the guru's brand is still based on giving advice to regular joes, and the authority comes from having been there, done that. How long can you keep that going, when you yourself left the lifestyle you are preaching behind years ago? Like this finance blog, seems like the guy writing it has been doing quite a lot of business in his "retirement", and his current level of spending doesn't seem particularly frugal either.
At that point, rationalizations set in. "I don't have to do this, but I want to. I would have been happy staying where I was forever, but I was just so excited to share this message." Yeah, maybe. Or maybe it's easy to give advice that doesn't apply to you anymore, which you can choose to ignore anytime you want with some rationalization. I'm not saying it's outright fraud, or that the advice can't have its merits. But there's just a heavy dose of cognitive dissonance involved.
Some examples I've encountered: Business advice types whose most successful business is their business advice business. Travel reviewer who talks about traveling high-class on a low budget via frequent flyer miles and credit card bonuses... Which requires you to fly as much as a professional travel reviewer and spend obnoxious amounts of money using credit cards in order to realize the benefits. Or someone who promotes ways to work less but more efficiently to get more spare time for family, friends and hobbies then proceeds to work overtime to promote these ideas on a blog, youtube, ted talk, book, book tour, online courses...
Maybe I'm cynical and overly pessimistic. Maybe I have a defeatist attitude and learned helplessness. Probably all true. Surely there are many good ideas and practical advice floating around the broader self-help, life philosophy sphere, and surely to some extent my gripes above can be seen as rationalizing the fear of taking action or reluctance to make short-term sacrifices for long-term gains. But still.
I'll tag this as USA and I should have considered the wider world. Apologies!
I think your criticism is 100% on point and makes me think of people like Pat Flynn, and another perosn mentioned how Dave Ramsey has fallen victim to his own success. But of all the people out there, I think MMM is the exception to this. Will he eventually fall prey to what you're describing? Maybe so, we'll see.
I agree with you. The one guy that i think it's doing the early retirement thing for real is Jacob from earlyretirementextreme. I used to read his blog a lot when he was writing new posts. He really retired and i remember he got back to work when someone offered a kind of work he did enjoy, i don't know what he is up to now.
You can see the blog is not all that flashy. It's still having posts, but if you look closely, the blog is re-posting old posts automatically.
I have found the advice offered here to be invaluable and have been disheartened to see /r/personalfinance turn their backs on the teachings of Mr. Money Mustache and Dave Ramsey. My hope is this introduction blog post from MMM might start someone else on their journey to financial independence.
I haven't followed this, but why are they turning their backs?
I think part of it is generational. Part of it is the sub trying to appeal to a larger crowd.
People don't like hearing things like "sell your expensive car and go buy a beater" or "forgo vacations" or things like that. Back in my day (lol) the sub was a lot of hardnosed advice you'd get from a grandparent about saving, minimizing expenses, etc. That's the type of stuff that people who are in debt and looking to get off the hamster wheel need to hear. Now it seems like a lot of it is about how to get the best credit rating, etc whereas before it would have been about not using credit at all. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some r/hailcorporate stuff going on. This is all of course my own personal opinion based on a handful of visits to the sub in recent years.
I would maintain that you do not need a credit rating to buy a house. If you approach a local bank with 20% down and a W2 that shows a steady pay check then they won't turn you down - but may require some extra steps/disclosures.
That said, yes it'll be easier with a credit rating as that's what the bank is used to dealing with. But that isn't some complex thing. Get a credit card and buy a pack of gum or a tank of gas once in a while and pay it off. That's literally all you need to do.
I don't want to get to a point where I'm having to go source stuff here, but I've seen some pretty bad advice get upvoted to the top.
Things like telling someone deeply in debt they should buy a recent model car. Or advising people with little experience managing money to get a credit card to "establish credit" - as if that isn't exactly the type of person that credit card companies love to get their hooks into.
There used to be people on college campuses offering "free t-shirts" for signing up for a credit card in college...now I think they just post comments on PF about "establishing credit."
EDIT: And I'd point out what I'm mainly talking about is a philosophical shift in the sub, which is illustrated by your comment. In the past, the sub would have been militantly against credit for any reason - so it's much less hard nosed than it used to be, and that bugs me because someone needs to be that "voice of grandpa/grandma" and it's currently missing from reddit in a meaningful way (/frugal is a tad too crazy and /FIRE is similar but doesn't have the mass appeal)
/r/pfjerk is better at this point. At least it can be funny!
Love that term. I think /r/povertyfinance maybe better captures the spirit of the old /r/PF. I had forgot about that one.
Thanks! I wasn't aware of that. I'll check it out.
I don't think /r/personalfinance has "turned its back" on those teachings. Emergency savings, saving up for big expenses, and debt reduction strategies are still at the heart of the sub. Navigating the world of credit is also an important part of that - especially in the US.
Wow, this blog is really hard hitting and most of the wastefulness mentioned I can relate to. I have been meaning to make some radical changes in my life and this seems like a really good tool to use. Especially the tips about how to mentally resist temptation to buy things as well as how to understand when buying things really is a good idea.
I like how his posts describe how to live a very enjoyable life while still reducing waste which is much better than the usual advice of eating rice and lentils every day while working 3 jobs and trading stock in your sleep.
If you like this you may also like Dave Ramsey's podcast and especially his book/audio book Financial Peace University.
Both are like this and help give the moral support needed to make some of the hard decisions needed to get out of debt and start changing your life. He's religious and also conservative (not my taste) so that stuff bleeds through but it's infrequent and the advice is solid.
I think that's fair criticism.
I still hold that the core advice offered in Financial Peace University holds up today. But I don't like the stuff you described and have seen some of that myself. For me, the radio show was a good way to stay motivated while trying to pay down debt. They have the part where people call in and talk about how much debt they paid off - super motivating stuff. So for that reason alone, I think the radio show is helpful.
Ha! That's very true. I didn't consider that aspect.
I don't think I really need too much advice right now. There are so many easy wins I could make like not going out for lunch every day and not buying needless items and moving somewhere within walking distance of stores. I think I can sort those out easy if I actually try and once I get to that point I can think about some of the more finer details like optimising spending even further on things like food.
That's awesome! I'm glad you like the blog post. Best of luck to you!
I feel like there must be an income level where this becomes impossible. I can save quite a bit because of support from my parents, but if I was on my own and tried to save 50% of my income, I'd be left with around $7,500/year to live on. My medical expenses (including insurance premiums) last year were over $10,000, so that doesn't really work out.
The individual advice is helpful; I switched to a different phone plan a while back, and I'm saving hundreds of dollars a year. So I get where small changes add up. But that overall savings goal only works for people already making a certain amount (or who have outside support, like me).
I think you're spot on. A lot of what they're talking about is defense - NOT spending the money you earn. But you have to play offense as well and PUMP that income up.
Can I ask what you do where you make $15K/year (doubling that $7500 number)?
I certainly am not putting away 50% of my income but I also don't see myself being financially independent for some time.
Don't want to be too specific, but I work remotely for a small tech company. I was originally hired to do online customer service, but I also now do a bit of website maintenance, research, training and help documentation updates, etc. Pretty much whatever someone needs help with that's within my skills (or I can learn).
The main reason I make relatively little is health/disability. I can only work part time, so in pretty much any job I take I'll make only half of what someone could earn working full time in that position. I would like to increase my income, but those health reasons also make it difficult to be proactive in job hunting- no extra energy outside current work. I also need other accommodations beyond part time (flexible hours, remote work if at all possible, nothing physical or involving standing/walking for any length of time, an understanding boss if I miss a week of work when starting a new med, etc). Those can be tricky to find in a job.
Thanks for replying. That all makes a lot of sense. I can't think of a quick win for you unfortunately. That situation must be frustrating :(
Thanks - yeah, it is frustrating. I totally appreciate this type of advice and understand how it can help a lot of people, but from my personal perspective it feels like an individual solution to a systemic problem. That's not bad in and of itself, but it's not sufficient either :)
When I quit smoking I used patches. I told everyone that I talked to who was thinking about quitting smoking that there is only ONE TRUE WAY and that's patches. I've since learned that what worked for me may not work for others and we each have to find our own way. I think that lesson applies here as well and I hope you find your own solution that's right for you :)